BoxRec

Oh yes. That is we have been treated to so many great heavyweight fights in the last 15 years. Such spectacular movement. They are just so light on their feet. The hand speed is just phenomenal. One combination after another is what we constantly see.
And the top guys have proved their greatness by going out of their way to fight each other. So many great rivalries.

oogiebe wrote: ↑27 Nov 2018, 14:41

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑27 Nov 2018, 14:34 Morris, Fulton, and Firpo would not even be considered big heavyweights today. Fulton and Firpo would probably be fighting at cruiserweight.

Spot on. Firpo was barely 6'3" and 215 LBS.

Spot on? Are you joking?
Firpo naturally weighed 215. He wouldn't have lost more than 15 pounds to get down to cruiserweight. Fulton weighed well over 200 as well.
Morris weighed around 240.
Dempsey beat them all.
All three would have been heavyweight contenders today. Ridiculous to think they would be cruiserweights.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑27 Nov 2018, 16:43 Oh yes. That is we have been treated to so many great heavyweight fights in the last 15 years. Such spectacular movement. They are just so light on their feet. The hand speed is just phenomenal. One combination after another is what we constantly see.
And the top guys have proved their greatness by going out of their way to fight each other. So many great rivalries.

You seem quite emotional about this topic.

Morris weighed 226 and 220 vs Dempsey according to boxrec, that would be below average by todays standards where the average for guys in the top 10 is just over 240.

Fulton weighed 208 vs Dempsey which is about what cruiserweights weigh when they enter the ring.

That's nonsense. Fulton was a top contender when Dempsey beat him. Carl Morris was as well. Firpo and Carpentier were not "manufactered contenders". Wouldn't really call Tyson Fury a skillful manor most big heavyweights man either.
btw- Carpentier beat Bombardier Wells who was much taller than him.

Billy Wells, is comparable to David Price. The moment he was figured out as a mechanical tinman with a glass jaw it was all over. Wells was also 6'3" and 215-220 pounds. Large for the 1910s but by today's standards the size of an Enzo.

As for Carpentier, yes Alp, he was a "soft touch". The only reason why the press ate him up was because women thought him handsome and men admired him for being in WW1 and Dempsey was seen as a "slacker". He was an inactive light heavyweight.

Firpo, too, was a "hard sell" because before the Willard fight he had fought essentially nobody--- and the Willard win was against an older, inactive, slower than molasses target. Someway, somehow, people bought into Firpo as this "logical contender" because of all these fake stories of him being this warrior in Argentina. Promoters in the years to come would copy the blueprint: Find a large foreign Heavyweight, create elaborate stories, and pad their record (if they had one) with non-existent wins. Louis L'Amour wrote stories for crying out loud about such things in the business. And, again, Firpo was roughly 6'2" and 220.

Carl Morris, like Billy Wells, was another guy who had a string of kayos against complete novices and midgets, until he was finally exposed by men who actually could fight. To say you were a "contender" in an era when there was no such thing as a ratings system--- was very easy to do. Boxing, then, was more about the hustle than legitimately proving anything. Burt Sugar said that specific time in boxing was great for promoters because "miners, loggers, ranchers, circus freaks and anyone over six feet tall wanted to be the next white hope," but ninety-nine out of a hundred couldn't really fight. And although he was 6'4" and 230-240 pounds--- who did he exactly beat that made him a top man? I put well over a dozen men ahead of Morris from Gunboat Smith to Fireman Jim Flynn to Willie Meehan to Luther McCarty to all the black guys like Bob Armstrong and Denver Ed Martin, etc to be so ahead of Morris that it's rather sad to mention him as a contender when he was just a manufactured guy.

Fred Fulton WAS on the downside. He had been fighting since 1913 and when Dempsey got him in 1918 he had been a contender ducked for two-three years at that point. After losing to Dempsey (15 seconds) he never again was thought of as a contender--- despite fighting on until 1943. Two years after Dempsey, Harry Wills put him out for good. From 1920 onwards the losses started piling up. But I stand by it, from Dempsey onwards, he was on the downside never again the same.

I do feel horrible for Fulton though. He should have gotten a shot at Willard and he most likely would have won because he had more punches in his arsenal than Jess. But was Fulton a modern sized Heavyweight? He certainly had the height and reach, but he was almost always 210 pounds. When he fought Dempsey he was 208. That's incredibly thin in my eyes for such a lengthy guy.

Now the irony of the Dempsey fight? Fulton after the fact said that Dempsey and Kearns had PREVIOUSLY agreed that it'd be an eight round exhibition. The whole distance. But that they double crossed him, just like Ketchel tried to double cross Johnson. I believe him. Why? Because Sam Langford, who Dempsey flat out avoided, couldn't knock out Fulton. Neither could Gunboat Smith. It all sounds fishy to me.

As for Tyson Fury not being up to your standards Alp, I don't know what to tell you. When Lennox Lewis says Fury would have been the toughest opponent for him out of AJ, Wilder and Fury, and when Freddie Roach and so many others actually in the business say he's about as master-class of a boxer his size can get, I don't know what to tell you. Think how you want to. I guess it boils down to whose your favorite's and Fury clearly is not one of yours when you want to argue men from the era of Al Jolson records could knock out the Klitschko's.

As usual it's hard to know where to start with you.
You yourself have seemed to be high on Wells in the past multiple times in the past. Carpentier destroyed him twice. As a teenager Carpentier went 15 rounds with Joe Jeannette. He was not a soft touch. That's just stupid to say that.

Carl Morris was a contender. Anybody who knows the sport from that era knows that. Who did he beat? Fulton multiple times. Also beat Fireman Flynn, Frank Moran, and Gunboat Smith. He fought a lot of good fighters nad won some and lost some. He wasn't a legend, but he was a serious contender.

Fulton was 27 when he fought Dempsey. He was in his prime. Yes he had been fighting for 5 years. That isn't a long time at all. Had there been rankings, he would have been at least the number 3 contender. Ludicrous to say he was on the downside. Sorry you think he was skinny; he usually didn't weigh much less than Wilder.

Firpo had beat Bill Brennan. Brennan was not a nobody. He also whipped Willard after Willard had whipped Floyd Johnson.

Fury best win was against an old, glassjaw Klitschko. And he didn't look good doing it.
Maybe he will show something against Wilder; we shall see. So far, he has done very little.

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑27 Nov 2018, 17:38 Morris weighed 226 and 220 vs Dempsey according to boxrec, that would be below average by todays standards where the average for guys in the top 10 is just over 240.

Fulton weighed 208 vs Dempsey which is about what cruiserweights weigh when they enter the ring.

Take a look at Wilder himself. He is always outweighed and always has won. Ever stop to think that is odd? Instead of saying the same old tripe over and over, why don't you explain this?

Morris usually outweighed Wilder. Firpo often outweighed Wilder. Fulton not much less than Wilder. Dempsey destroyed them all.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 00:41

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑27 Nov 2018, 17:38 Morris weighed 226 and 220 vs Dempsey according to boxrec, that would be below average by todays standards where the average for guys in the top 10 is just over 240.

Fulton weighed 208 vs Dempsey which is about what cruiserweights weigh when they enter the ring.

Take a look at Wilder himself. He is always outweighed and always has won. Ever stop to think that is odd? Instead of saying the same old tripe over and over, why don't you explain this?

Morris usually outweighed Wilder. Firpo often outweighed Wilder. Fulton not much less than Wilder. Dempsey destroyed them all.

You are going around in circles. Its a COMBINATION of physical size, power, speed and being in shape. All these attributes aren’t so effective in isolation but when a fighter has all them all that makes him dangerous, especially when he has such huge physical advantages. Wilder might not be as skilful as some HWs over the years but neither was Marciano. Terrible match up for Marciano. Could Marciano beat David Price who is the biggest of them all, yes he could because Price has shown he isn’t fast, can’t hold a punch well and he is knackered after 3 rounds. However if Price managed to land a huge right on Marciano first it would be lights out for Marciano. So just pointing to a tall guy and saying 'well he got beat by a short bloke', or pointing to a heavy guy and saying 'well a light guy beat him' just isn't comparable.

Carl Morris... His wins against Fulton either came in Fulton's rookie year or were by disqualification... You bring up his wins against Gunboat Smith and Fireman Jim Flynn... Why not mention Luther McCarty knocking him stone cold in six rounds in 1912? Or him losing to Willard in 1913? Or him losing to McMahon and Coffey in 1915?

Prior to his three back to back to back matches with Dempsey, Fulton was 5-4 w/ 1 No Contest.... Contender? Seriously?... Dempsey then beat him all three times, and from that point on went was nothing ever again.

Georges Carpentier... After being out for four years (1914-1918) he returns in 1919 winning the EBU Heavyweight belt against some 3-7-0 jobber and it took him eight rounds to do it... Then he fights some 2-1 scrub, then a 15-6 journeyman, then some 45-46-33 guy named Blink, then a 7-4 dude nobody knows, and then he fights WELL PASSED HIS PRIME Battling Levinsky, 161-37-34, who had been a pro for a decade... THEN he fights Dempsey... And you're telling me he wasn't a manufactured threat? That's about as harmless to Jack Dempsey as a gaggle of baby geese.

Firpo.... Look at his record again.... His opponents combined wins/losses prior to facing old Jess Willard?... 105 losses, 172 wins, 37 draws... THE BULK OF THOSE WINS came from 77-16-8 Bill Brennan and from 25-2 Angel Rodriguez who knocked Firpo out in his 2nd fight... Did you know that Brennan only fought ONCE MORE after Firpo?... Yeah, he was at the end of his career--- yet you want to say it was some grand achievement needing 12 of 15 rounds to beat a washed up old man.

Firpo was a manufactured threat. He wasn't for real. He fought complete novices and old men who had nothing left. He was just a good press story because he was depicted as this Argentinian ogre from the foothills of the Andes. The book A FLAME OF PURE FIRE on Dempsey's career goes into length how both Carpentier and Firpo were soft touches.

Tex Ricard & Doc Kearns knew they couldn't keep the charade going for too long otherwise people would either catch on or lose interest altogether. So these men were matched soft, and their press friends blew smoke up everyone's asses about them being more than what they were.

Again, you have your own opinion of Fury. I have mine. You prefer watching limited, straight line attackers. For me that's never satisfying because that tells you nothing about what they actually can do in the ring.

As for Wells, I don't recall being "high" on the man. I do recall saying that he was supposed to fight Jack Johnson but the British Sporting Club and the government refused Johnson to compete in their country. He was a tremendous power hitter, but, he had no chin.

Wilder thus far hasn't fought many world class opponents and those that he has fought do not enjoy the degree of size advantage that Wilder holds over Marciano or the size gap that modern heavies generally would enjoy over most of the top heavies of the past.

As for Firpo and Fulton I expect they could both dry out to make cruiserweight.

First of all, I have to say I wonder what you see when you look up records. You are constantly are saying things that aren't factually true.

Fred Fulton fought Dempsey once, not three times. He was not 5-4-1 before fought him. No idea where you came up with that. In fact, if you dismiss Dqs, (which you seem to like to do) Fulton had not lost a fight since he was ko'd by Morris, which you blow off because Fulton was inexperienced.
In reality, Fulton was on a winning streak when he fought Dempsey. He had never lost except for DQs and and fights early in his career. Which may be why he was regarded as one of the top heavyweights in the world.
Yet Dempsey stopped him in less than a minute of the first round.

Carl Morris- No I didn't mention specific losses. I said he fought a lot of good competition and won some and lost some. He was a serious contender for several years.

Carpentier -Yes he fought some stiffs. so what. Everyone does. The guy went 15 rounds with Jeannette and many thought he deserved the decision. Also beat Gunboat Smith. Oops, it was by DQ so maybe that doesn't count.

Firpo- Yes Brennan only fought once after he fought Firpo. That was because he was killed.
Firpo also beat Charley Weinert who was pretty well regarded. Not a legend, but a decent fighter.


Bottom line:
Dempsey KO 1 vs Morris
Dempsey KO 1 vs Fulton
Demspey KO 2 against Firpo.
All three were in their prime.

All clearly would be heavyweights today. (All way over the magical 200 pound mark.) Anyone with a modicum of boxing knowledge and common sense knows this. Idiotic to think they would not be.

Controversial wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 04:02

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 00:41

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑27 Nov 2018, 17:38 Morris weighed 226 and 220 vs Dempsey according to boxrec, that would be below average by todays standards where the average for guys in the top 10 is just over 240.

Fulton weighed 208 vs Dempsey which is about what cruiserweights weigh when they enter the ring.

Take a look at Wilder himself. He is always outweighed and always has won. Ever stop to think that is odd? Instead of saying the same old tripe over and over, why don't you explain this?

Morris usually outweighed Wilder. Firpo often outweighed Wilder. Fulton not much less than Wilder. Dempsey destroyed them all.

You are going around in circles. Its a COMBINATION of physical size, power, speed and being in shape. All these attributes aren’t so effective in isolation but when a fighter has all them all that makes him dangerous, especially when he has such huge physical advantages. Wilder might not be as skilful as some HWs over the years but neither was Marciano. Terrible match up for Marciano. Could Marciano beat David Price who is the biggest of them all, yes he could because Price has shown he isn’t fast, can’t hold a punch well and he is knackered after 3 rounds. However if Price managed to land a huge right on Marciano first it would be lights out for Marciano. So just pointing to a tall guy and saying 'well he got beat by a short bloke', or pointing to a heavy guy and saying 'well a light guy beat him' just isn't comparable.

It's a combination of physical size speed, power and being in shape?
Well that is partly right. At least you are saying that speed and power and being matter.
My point is that some people (thank goodness some people know that ability matters) automatically dismiss some because of the weight, height, reach. It's what you do that counts.

You can't just consider all the advantages that a bigger man is supposed to have.
You have to look at the disadvantages. Big guys are usually slower, Less stamina. Easier to hit.

Marciano did have some skill. He could hurt you with the left hook or the straight right. He could body punch as well as go for the head. As for being in shape, he was in phenomenal condition. He could throw tons of punches round after round. He was tough as nails and could dig deep if he had to.
Do we know if Wilder could dig deep? No.
Do we know if Wilder have the cardio to throw a ton of punches for 10 plus rounds? No.
Do we even know if he can take a good shot? No.
Could Wilder consistently nail a much smaller and faster target than he is used to?

We simply don't know these things, at least yet. In boxing, it's usually best to bet on the proven commodity.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 12:04 First of all, I have to say I wonder what you see when you look up records. You are constantly are saying things that aren't factually true.

Fred Fulton fought Dempsey once, not three times. He was not 5-4-1 before fought him. No idea where you came up with that. In fact, if you dismiss Dqs, (which you seem to like to do) Fulton had not lost a fight since he was ko'd by Morris, which you blow off because Fulton was inexperienced.
In reality, Fulton was on a winning streak when he fought Dempsey. He had never lost except for DQs and and fights early in his career. Which may be why he was regarded as one of the top heavyweights in the world.
Yet Dempsey stopped him in less than a minute of the first round.

Carl Morris- No I didn't mention specific losses. I said he fought a lot of good competition and won some and lost some. He was a serious contender for several years.

Carpentier -Yes he fought some stiffs. so what. Everyone does. The guy went 15 rounds with Jeannette and many thought he deserved the decision. Also beat Gunboat Smith. Oops, it was by DQ so maybe that doesn't count.

Firpo- Yes Brennan only fought once after he fought Firpo. That was because he was killed.
Firpo also beat Charley Weinert who was pretty well regarded. Not a legend, but a decent fighter.


Bottom line:
Dempsey KO 1 vs Morris
Dempsey KO 1 vs Fulton
Demspey KO 2 against Firpo.
All three were in their prime.

All clearly would be heavyweights today. (All way over the magical 200 pound mark.) Anyone with a modicum of boxing knowledge and common sense knows this. Idiotic to think they would not be.

If I'm idiotic to disagree...well then, I'm an idiot! "all way over the magical 200 pound mark" - Comical to even think, with few exceptions low 200 LB fighters have any real success at HW these days. I'm done here.

Firpo would be pretty tiny by todays heavyweight standards and would be giving away 30 pounds or more to many of the top heavyweights along with considerable height and reach. If he chose to compete at heavyweight I doubt he would have much success and likely never cracks the top 100. Given his size though I expect he could dry out and make cruiserweight.
Murat Gassiev for example certainly looks like someone who enters the ring well over 200 pounds, probably 210-215 or so come fight time.

Also, this talk of Wilder being unproven seems a bit silly given he has beaten as many elite opponents as Riddick Bowe and nearly as many as Foreman. He has beaten actual ranked contenders like Luis Ortiz.

The Ortiz fight suggests Wilder has the ability to dig deep and take a shot from a good puncher. This fight as well as the first Stiverne fight and Duhaupas fight should give us some idea as to his stamina and punch output over a long fight.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 12:18
It's a combination of physical size speed, power and being in shape?
Well that is partly right. At least you are saying that speed and power and being matter.
My point is that some people (thank goodness some people know that ability matters) automatically dismiss some because of the weight, height, reach. It's what you do that counts.

You can't just consider all the advantages that a bigger man is supposed to have.
You have to look at the disadvantages. Big guys are usually slower, Less stamina. Easier to hit.

Marciano did have some skill. He could hurt you with the left hook or the straight right. He could body punch as well as go for the head. As for being in shape, he was in phenomenal condition. He could throw tons of punches round after round. He was tough as nails and could dig deep if he had to.
Do we know if Wilder could dig deep? No.
Do we know if Wilder have the cardio to throw a ton of punches for 10 plus rounds? No.
Do we even know if he can take a good shot? No.
Could Wilder consistently nail a much smaller and faster target than he is used to?

We simply don't know these things, at least yet. In boxing, it's usually best to bet on the proven commodity.

Except Wilder is faster than Marciano, and hits harder. I don’t see the fight going many rounds so stamina isn’t really a factor in my opinion but Wilder is a very fit guy, he carries no fat. The flip side for the questions you pose could be directed at Marciano. He never fought anyone like Wilder so how do you know he would walk through him? You don’t have to be an ATG to stand a chance in a fight. People that have fought Wilder say his power is on another level, he’s fast and he is awkward to fight. Stylistically Wilder is all wrong for Marciano.

Wilder has fought elite opponents?
HahahahahahahH

Wilder faster than Marciano
Hahahahahahaha

Takes Wilder a day and a half to deliver that right...rocky would have no trouble getting inside....

People gotta remember that Wilders boxing acumen is very limited....rockys was underated...he knew how to close distance..

None of the current guys, or any in recent memory, have an inside game. The closest would be povetkin and he's much smaller than someone like Norton that you guys hysterically consider small.

Compared to Anthony Joshua Norton is small, 3 inches shorter and about 30 pounds lighter. I don't think that's really disputable.

Morris, not Fulton, fought Dempsey three times. Just switch names around. My point still stands. I explained the BEFORE AND AFTER the fights--- and clearly you want to say that these guys were "prime" when they fought Dempsey when magically afterwards they weren't. No, the decline was already beginning.

We all don't have a time machine. But I don't think you can name 5 men PRESENTLY 200 pounds who can beat Wilder, Fury or Joshua. If they can't do it, it's all the more difficult to imagine men 20, 30 pounds lighter doing it.

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 14:54 Compared to Anthony Joshua Norton is small, 3 inches shorter and about 30 pounds lighter. I don't think that's really disputable.

So?

Joshua is massive and the smaller than Norton, not as good as Norton, past his prime povetkin gave him a lot of trouble.

Norton was before Cojimar became a fan. Therefore, Povetkin was better than Norton. That is how it works for him. The sport got better when he became a fan.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑28 Nov 2018, 16:44 Norton was before Cojimar became a fan. Therefore, Povetkin was better than Norton. That is how it works for him. The sport got better when he became a fan.

Norton was a favorite of mine. Had a great jab! Dragged his right foot, but he was a terrific boxer/puncher. I think he could compete today with some success, despite giving up so much weight to the top 5 or so. Good fight between he and Parker I think.