Classic American West Coast Boxing

[kikibalt]

Randy, where exactly is that in LA? If Linda comes out to the CBHOF with me, I'd like to take her there. She loves harbor areas like that. It looks very scenic! (Maybe you and Jeri will go with us! )

Tom, Shoreline Village is located in Long Beach, while it is still within Los Angeles County, it is about 20 miles south of Downtown Los Angeles. Within walking distance is Pine Ave, where restaurants and pubs are located, also within walking distance is The Pike, (not to be confused with the original Pike) which also has restaurants and pubs, a ferris wheel and other rides as well as arcades.

I put some websites up for you, including an interesting website on the original Pike which was more or less, the Coney Island of California back in the day. It was an interesting place. I'm sure Frank remembers it. The whole area with the new Pike and Shoreline Village was the location of the original Pike.

Tom, it would be great to spend some time with you and Linda but this year our time will be committed to my cousins Louie and Rocky Burke and other family members during that weekend.

I'm also posting a photo of The Hyatt Hotel which overlooks Shoreline Village.

http://www.shorelinevillage.com/

http://www.thepikeatlongbeach.com/

http://downtownlongbeach.org/residents/Home

http://www.millikanalumni.com/Pike/PikeHistory.html


http://longbeach.hyatt.com

I remember the Long Beach Pike real well, Randy, it use to be our summer weekends hang out in the early '50's.
Below is a picture of me (L) and my late uncle, Max, at the Pike's jail around summer of '53.

[Rick Farris]

R

Mando Ramos & Allen Syers

Man, they look young,especially Mando. Nice photo Frank.

Mando was 17.

[Rick Farris]

Allen Syers . . .

Frank, that's a great shot of Mando and Allen Syers.
I remember it appeared in the L.A. Herald-Examiner sports page leading up to the match.
Syers is a sharp man with a wealth of boxing knowledge, both from England and Los Angeles.
I enjoy seeing him at GSBA lunches and HOF gatherings, and appreciate his friendship.

[Rick Farris]

R

Mando Ramos & Allen Syers

Man, they look young,especially Mando. Nice photo Frank.

Mando was 17.

Allen Syers . . .

And speaking of a Brit with charactor, class and good punch, meet our friend Allen Syers.
Those of you who will attend this year's CBHOF luncheon will have a chance to meet this wonderful man.
Allen was a good one, however, an industrial accident ended his career just as it was getting started.

[Rick Farris]

Big things on the horizon for New Mexico's Austin Trout.

From http://Newmexicoboxing.com

Mexican prodigy Saul “Canelo” Alvarez is already talking about vengeance – a possible showdown with the man who outclassed and dethroned his brother, Rigoberto Alvarez, last weekend. Alvarez told BS that he’s open to a fight with WBA Super Welterweight World Champ Austin Trout as early as June. Speaking of the champ, Trout returned home last night.

I believe this would be great match making. How rare in today's market.
I like Canelo, but in this one I'd be rooting for Austin Trout. He's kinda like family here.

[bennie]

An excellent update on Genaro Hernandez by Bill Dwyre:


http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-dwy ... umn?page=1

Thanks for the post Bennie....

It was good to read that Bob Arum is helping out Genaro, financially. Where is Oscar?

[bennie]

Jesus, Charley, you are up late.

[CNorkusJr]

Got a note today telling me that a fellow named Kenneth Cook is selling DVd compilations of many fighters-on the cheap. My friend told me he put together a DVd on my father holding about 6-7 of his best fights, in which my friend bought and viewed. He said it is of good quality visual & audio. He also has DVD compilations of Jerry Quarry, Gene Tunney, Jack Dempsey, S.Ray Leonard and many others. All going for about $20.00 US.
He can be found at http://kennethcook.ioffer.com/

I want to state that I do not know this individual,nor did I ever know of him prior and did not supply him of fights of my father. my fathers fights are out there on the various markets of fight collectors though.

[CNorkusJr]

Jesus, Charley, you are up late.

Yea, I do my best thinking about this time. LOL. I check online for various "Charley Norkus" articles and chatroom things. Hope all is well by you, too.

[bennie]

Jesus, Charley, you are up late.

Yea, I do my best best thinking about this time. LOL. I check online for various "Charley Norkus" articles and chatroom things. Hope all is well by you, too.

Charley, did your dad ever get offered a fight in England?

[CNorkusJr]

Jesus, Charley, you are up late.

Yea, I do my best best thinking about this time. LOL. I check online for various "Charley Norkus" articles and chatroom things. Hope all is well by you, too.

Charley, did your dad ever get offered a fight in England?

That's a great question that I just found out a story that goes with that.
The immediate answer is no, he was not offered a fight overseas during his boxing career.

Last year when I attended a Ring 8 dinner here in New York, I met a old friend of my dads who was also a sparmate of my dads in Stillman's Gym. His name is Henry Wallitsch, but to all his friends they call him "Henny". He had a fairly good career as a Heavy that ran the same time as my dads. When I first met him he was very excited and almost overcome with emotion. He couldn't talk enough about my dad and what a great friend he was to Henny.
He told me two stories that i will relate to you.:
First one: Henny usually trained in Stillmans in the early session starting about 9 or 10 am.
It was also the main training time schedule for Roland LaStarza and Cesar Brion.Henny would spar with both of these greats. He told me that both LaStarza & Brion were starting to beat the crap out of him,especially when both had huge fights coming up.He didn't want to leave them as the money was good and Henny was getting good exposure for himself if a matchmaker came in and saw him as a fit heavy for a pre-lim some where.
He passed my father often when my father came in to train and they both hit it off as friends.He told my father that both of the guys were beating him up good on the day shift.
My father told Henny come train with him in the afternoon and I'll make sure you dont get treated like that. He trained from that point on with my dad and Henny swears that my father saved his life. He was very sincere about that story.

[bennie]

Yea, I do my best best thinking about this time. LOL. I check online for various "Charley Norkus" articles and chatroom things. Hope all is well by you, too.

Charley, did your dad ever get offered a fight in England?

That's a great question that I just found out a story that goes with that.
The immediate answer is no, he was not offered a fight overseas during his boxing career.

Last year when I attended a Ring 8 dinner here in New York, I met a old friend of my dads who was also a sparmate of my dads in Stillman's Gym. His name is Henry Wallitsch, but to all his friends they call him "Henny". He had a fairly good career as a Heavy that ran the same time as my dads. When I first met him he was very excited and almost overcome with emotion. He couldn't talk enough about my dad and what a great friend he was to Henny.
He told me two stories that i will relate to you.:
First one: Henny usually trained in Stillmans in the early session starting about 9 or 10 am.
It was also the main training time schedule for Roland LaStarza and Cesar Brion.Henny would spar with both of these greats. He told me that both LaStarza & Brion were starting to beat the crap out of him,especially when both had huge fights coming up.He didn't want to leave them as the money was good and Henny was getting good exposure for himself if a matchmaker came in and saw him as a fit heavy for a pre-lim some where.
He passed my father often when my father came in to train and they both hit it off as friends.He told my father that both of the guys were beating him up good on the day shift.
My father told Henny come train with him in the afternoon and I'll make sure you dont get treated like that. He trained from that point on with my dad and Henny swears that my father saved his life. He was very sincere about that story.

That's a great story and a typically classy act from your dad. What a gentleman.

[CNorkusJr]

Second one: On a subsequient visit with Henry Wallitsch, he asked me if my father ever talked to me about the trip to Europe they were planning. I told him no, as my father never mentioned that. (Many times, if I didn't ask, my father never told me some things-this was one of them).
Henry told me that in 1959, the two of them were planning a European Exhibition tour that would have included amongst others, Roland LaStarza,Cesar Brion, Jake LaMotta, Ernie Durando,Charlie Fusari,Keene Simmons,Lee Oma, Paddy DeMarco, Billy Graham, Joe Miceli and Henry and my dad. All met at Stillmans gym and were talking about doing this thing mainly because of the huge amount of fan mail they received through the years from all over Europe.My father thought there would be a huge interest in seeing and meeting the guys that they rooted for so long on TV, and that it was a way of saying Thanks for their support all those years as well as a free European trip for them & the wives.. It was my fathers original idea that seemed to snowball. They wanted to bring the wives too as they figured this thing would pay for itself and have a few extra dollars to pocket afterwards. A couple stops in England, Ireland,Italy,France and Germany.
My father was getting a promoter lined up and trying to get some backers to get this thing started when my father was hit by a couple bullets one night throwing out a guy from a bar in Times Square, Manhattan where he moonlighted. He survived the shooting, that put a definite finality to his career which was winding down now anyway. He lived to tell about the shooting, but the European Boxing tour idea didn't survive after that.
Henry relayed that story to me just last year.I dont think my father mentioned it to me only because A) it never resulted in anything; B) At the time he was shot, he didnt talk about that time period much at home, only a few times, but I have the newspapers articles and my mother filled me in on some things too.She never mentioned the trip either.
Picture of Henry Wallitsch (L) ,boxing promoter Jim winters (c) and my father at Sunnyside Gardens, Queens, NY. Mid 1970's. You cant see poster well, but my father fought Henry that night in an exhibition bout for charity.Their names were listed.I have that poster here in my home.

[bennie]

Second one: On a subsequient visit with Henry Wallitsch, he asked me if my father ever talked to me about the trip to Europe they were planning. I told him no, as my father never mentioned like that. (Many times, if I didn't ask, my father never told me some things-this was one of them).
Henry told me that in 1959, the two of them were planning a European Exhibition tour that would have included amongst others, Roland LaStarza,Cesar Brion, Jake LaMotta, Ernie Durando,Charlie Fusari,Keene Simmons,Lee Oma, Paddy DeMarco, Billy Graham, Joe Miceli and Henry and my dad. All met at Stillmans gym and were talking about doing this thing mainly because of the huge amount of fan mail they received through the years from all over Europe.My father thought there would be a huge interest in seeing and meeting the guys that they rooted for so long on TV, and that it was a way of saying Thanks for their support all those years as well as a free European trip for them & the wives.. It was my fathers original idea that seemed to snowball. They wanted to bring the wives too as they figured this thing would pay for itself and have a few extra dollars to pocket afterwards. A couple stops in England, Ireland,Italy,France and Germany.
My father was getting a promoter lined up and trying to get some backers to get this thing started when my father was hit by a couple bullets one night throwing out a guy from a bar in Times Square, Manhattan where he moonlighted. He survived the shooting, that put a definite finality to his career which was winding down now anyway. He lived to tell about the shooting, but the European Boxing tour idea didn't survive after that.
Henry relayed that story to me just last year.I dont think my father mentioned it to me only because A) it never resulted in anything; B) At the time he was shot, he didnt talk about that time period much at home, only a few times, but I have the newspapers articles and my mother filled me in on some things too.She never mentioned the trip either.

What a shame, but it could have been a helluva lot more than a mere shame. I've seen the pictures and he was very composed, very brave. I'm sure he would have liked to have made his own decision about his career and probably felt he had one or two good fights left in him.
As Joe Frazier once said, "Life doesn't run away from you, it runs at you."

[CNorkusJr]

I think he did want to fight one or two more fights like you say. There was nothing in the works for that moment. Coming off a victory over Waban Thomas in North Carolina, my father did know ,as he told me, that his best days were behind him. One thing that was making him stay in the ring then was the money purses were growing larger as TV was now also taking on Theatre crowds for championships.A pre-lim was getting big money also on those cards. What was once $5,000 payout for a TV appearance main event plus gate pct. during the mid 1950's was now getting bigger paydays. My father was sparring with Jose Torres regularly and though he never mentioned it, might have given him a shot for a money night. He sparred with Johannson too, along with Henry, but that ended in a bad way at that time.Floyd Patterson was a good friend and that might give him a payday also. Of,course none of these would have been title shots-far from it. But paydays for the new era were coming in and I think my father would have been interested in one or two more. He still had many supporters at that time in NY & NJ.
My father fought on the undercard of the Marciano-Kid Matthews fight at Yankee Stadium in 1952. My father said that night was one of the most exhilarating nights of his career coming out of the tunnel in the old Stadium.He lost on points that night.He told me he sold close to 3,000 tickets for the fight to his supporters that night.
Earlier in 1949,my father Ko'd his opponent in the stadium on the undercard to Lesnevich-Ezzard Charles fight.

[bennie]

I think he did want to fight one or two more fights like you say. There was nothing in the works for that moment. Coming off a victory over Waban Thomas in North Carolina, my father did know ,as he told me, that his best days were behind him. One thing that was making him stay in the ring then was the money purses were growing larger as TV was now also taking on Theatre crowds for championships.A pre-lim was getting big money also on those cards. What was once $5,000 payout for a TV appearance main event plus gate pct. during the mid 1950's was now getting bigger paydays. My father was sparring with Jose Torres regularly and though he never mentioned it, might have given him a shot for a money night. He sparred with Johannson too, along with Henry, but that ended in a bad way at that time.Floyd Patterson was a good friend and that might give him a payday also. Of,course none of these would have been title shots-far from it. But paydays for the new era were coming in and I think my father would have been interested in one or two more. He still had many supporters at that time in NY.
My father fought on the undercard of the Marciano-Kid Matthews fight at Yankee Stadium in 1952. My father said that night was one of the most exhilarating nights of his career coming out of the tunnel in the old Stadium.He lost on points that night.He told me he sold close to 3,000 tickets for the fight to his supporters that night.
Earlier in 1949,my father Ko'd his opponent in the stadium on the undercard to Lesnevich-Ezzard Charles fight.

Why did the Johansson thing end in a bad way, if you don't mind me asking?

[Rick Farris]

An excellent update on Genaro Hernandez by Bill Dwyre:


http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-dwy ... umn?page=1

Thanks for the post Bennie....

It was good to read that Bob Arum is helping out Genaro, financially. Where is Oscar?

I don't think it's Oscar's responsibility.
It would be a nice thing if he would help his former opponent, but he does help others.

[CNorkusJr]

I think he did want to fight one or two more fights like you say. There was nothing in the works for that moment. Coming off a victory over Waban Thomas in North Carolina, my father did know ,as he told me, that his best days were behind him. One thing that was making him stay in the ring then was the money purses were growing larger as TV was now also taking on Theatre crowds for championships.A pre-lim was getting big money also on those cards. What was once $5,000 payout for a TV appearance main event plus gate pct. during the mid 1950's was now getting bigger paydays. My father was sparring with Jose Torres regularly and though he never mentioned it, might have given him a shot for a money night. He sparred with Johannson too, along with Henry, but that ended in a bad way at that time.Floyd Patterson was a good friend and that might give him a payday also. Of,course none of these would have been title shots-far from it. But paydays for the new era were coming in and I think my father would have been interested in one or two more. He still had many supporters at that time in NY.
My father fought on the undercard of the Marciano-Kid Matthews fight at Yankee Stadium in 1952. My father said that night was one of the most exhilarating nights of his career coming out of the tunnel in the old Stadium.He lost on points that night.He told me he sold close to 3,000 tickets for the fight to his supporters that night.
Earlier in 1949,my father Ko'd his opponent in the stadium on the undercard to Lesnevich-Ezzard Charles fight.

Why did the Johansson thing end in a bad way, if you don't mind me asking?

Thank You for asking Bennie, but I rather have you refer to my fathers thread "Charley Norkus..Friend and Foes" site for that story.It can be found on page 3 of his thread.
I posted recent stuff there as well.
I posted a story there on page 5 about my fathers fight with Tommy Harrison as well. Tommy Harrison was a top Los Angeles heavy who was a chief sparmate for Rocky Marciano at the time.
This site is for California and West Coast stuff primarily and with all respect to my good friends here, and the availabilty of learning about my fathers career on a nearby source, I would refer you over to there to see.I have no problem listing stories on my dad and his California fights or McMurty fight in Tacoma,WA as well, but I rather leave it to West Coast or short questions on his career.With all due respect my friend.

[Ric]

Anybody recognize any of these guys. This photo purports to be of Los Angeles-area boxing-related people, circa 1950. (I see Fidel LaBarba is bottom row, center.) A larger version of this image is here.

[Rick Farris]

Anybody recognize any of these guys. This photo purports to be of Los Angeles-area boxing-related people, circa 1950. (I see Fidel LaBarba is bottom row, center.) A larger version of this image is here.

Art Aragon, Lou Nova, Ralph Gambina, Willie Pep, Al Silvani, La Barbara, Tom Kennedy, Clayton Frye, Suey Wench... to name a few.

[kikibalt]

Anybody recognize any of these guys. This photo purports to be of Los Angeles-area boxing-related people, circa 1950. (I see Fidel LaBarba is bottom row, center.) A larger version of this image is here.

Art Aragon, Lou Nova, Ralph Gambina, Willie Pep, Al Silvani, La Barbara, Tom Kennedy, Clayton Frye, Suey Wench... to name a few.

Also sitting in front (R) is former lightweight champion, Lauro Salas..

[Ric]

If you guys wouldn't mind identifying them, top row and bottom row, left to right, I could make the necessary changes over on the Wiki. (I have been uploading quite a few California-related boxing images the past few days. See here, for example. The Wiki "Gallery of new files" page is a good one to have bookmarked in your browser.)

[Randyman]

It might have been a great fight but it never happened. Graziano and LaMotta were scheduled to fight on June 14, 1950 but for one reason or another, the fight never came off. You can't help but wonder.

Between Jake La Motta and Rocky Graziano, LaMotta is generally considered the better of the two and I tend to agree with that assessment. Sometimes on the surface it might mean something or as we see every so often, it can absolutely mean nothing.

Both men were hardened veteran's of ring wars, Both were middleweight champions during their careers. Graziano known for his trilogy with "The Man of Steel" Tony Zale in which he won and lost his title, LaMotta for his six fights with the lengendary Sugar Ray Robinson. LaMotta won one fight and ultimately lost his title to Robinson. Both fought their fair share of "tomato cans" (bums). Both came from a "Dead End Kids" envioroment, LaMotta from the Bronx, hence the nickname "The Bronx Bull", and Rocky from the Lower East Side of Manhatton, New York. Both were Italian Americans. Rocky was sort of a lovable hood and immensely popular. LaMotta, not quite so lovable and not so popular. LaMotta had a total of 106 fights, he won 83 of them with 30 KO's, he lost 19 and got stopped in four of his losses and had 4 draws. Graziano fought for a total of 83 fights, winning 67 of his fights, 52 by knockout, he lost 10 fights, getting KO'ed in three of his losses, and had 6 draws. It's interesting to note that while LaMotta had more fights, Graziano had a better knockout ratio.

Graziano was an exciting, reckless fighter without much defense, he had a better than average punch and a huge heart. LaMotta was a much tighter package. While not exactly a techician, he did posses better defensive skills than Rocky, as well as better jab. His bggist asset was his chin and endurance. As for punching power, he was much more of a "Grinder" that would eventually wear down an opponent.

I don't see Rocky winning this fight. I see LaMotta's chin offsetting Rocky's punch. His better skills would allow LaMotta to get inside of Graziano and take advantage of his lack of a good defense. I see it as a great, crowd pleasing fight that would more than likely end by a late round stoppage of Rocky Graziano. The fans would definitely get their monies worth.

[kikibalt]

Jerry Moore

[CNorkusJr]

It might have been a great fight but it never happened. Graziano and LaMotta were scheduled to fight on June 14, 1950 but for one reason or another, the fight never came off. You can't help but wonder.

Between Jake La Motta and Rocky Graziano, LaMotta is generally considered the better of the two and I tend to agree with that assessment. Sometimes on the surface it might mean something or as we see every so often, it can absolutely mean nothing.

Both men were hardened veteran's of ring wars, Both were middleweight champions during their careers. Graziano known for his trilogy with "The Man of Steel" Tony Zale in which he won and lost his title, LaMotta for his six fights with the lengendary Sugar Ray Robinson. LaMotta won one fight and ultimately lost his title to Robinson. Both fought their fair share of "tomato cans" (bums). Both came from a "Dead End Kids" envioroment, LaMotta from the Bronx, hence the nickname "The Bronx Bull", and Rocky from the Lower East Side of Manhatton, New York. Both were Italian Americans. Rocky was sort of a lovable hood and immensely popular. LaMotta, not quite so lovable and not so popular. LaMotta had a total of 106 fights, he won 83 of them with 30 KO's, he lost 19 and got stopped in four of his losses and had 4 draws. Graziano fought for a total of 83 fights, winning 67 of his fights, 52 by knockout, he lost 10 fights, getting KO'ed in three of his losses, and had 6 draws. It's interesting to note that while LaMotta had more fights, Graziano had a better knockout ratio.

Graziano was an exciting, reckless fighter without much defense, he had a better than average punch and a huge heart. LaMotta was a much tighter package. While not exactly a techician, he did posses better defensive skills than Rocky, as well as better jab. His bggist asset was his chin and endurance. As for punching power, he was much more of a "Grinder" that would eventually wear down an opponent.

I don't see Rocky winning this fight. I see LaMotta's chin offsetting Rocky's punch. His better skills would allow LaMotta to get inside of Graziano and take advantage of his lack of a good defense. I see it as a great, crowd pleasing fight that would more than likely end by a late round stoppage of Rocky Graziano. The fans would definitely get their monies worth.

Great Piece Randy, Thanks