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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 05 Apr 2011, 23:27
by CNorkusJr
AlFrancis wrote:Hello, I haven't posted on here before but I just wanted to say what a great thread. I'm the son of Alan Rudkin and I want to say thanks for all the kind words said about dad. It's 6 months now since he passed but it's still a great comfort

From one boxers son to another, Mr. Francis (assuming your name)- I think you will hopefully find this thread as well as others in Boxrec, truly enlightening and full of dedicated, well spoken individuals here who just might pass along info on your father, Alan Rudkin, that you might just not have known before.
In just a short time, God only knows what great material has been shared with me over my dads career and life. Glad to have you on board and enjoy.
Your father was one helluva fighter on both sides of the Atlantic.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 05 Apr 2011, 23:36
by CNorkusJr
Rick Farris wrote:
CNorkusJr wrote:Nigel Collins sounds very familiar. Did he cover boxing in NYC during the 70's and 80's anyone know ?. Seems I ran into him somewhere along the line-I cant put my finger on it though.

He's Editor of The Ring Magazine today, and a couple other boxing publications.
I'm sure he's the guy you remember, Charlie.
Thanks Rick. I remember him in the Officials lockeroom in the Garden interviewing refs after fights. He might have been a writer for The Ring or other publication at the time, but glad to see he is an Editor now. Though I haven't seen him locally here in awhile-he was a mainstay for a long time in NYC.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 06 Apr 2011, 04:04
by AlFrancis
Thanks fellas, I feel welcome already. I spent about an hour reading through this thread last night before I posted and it did strike me how polite and well behaved everyone was. :TU:
I've seen some of your posts before Rick about your experience with dad in LA. I did read a post by someone a few years ago about dad's time in LA when a lad in the gym asked about the Lonsdale shorts and dad gave him a pair. That wasn't you by any chance was it? The Olivares fight fascinates me, I think because I've never seen it although I am curious about it and don't know how I'd feel watching it. Funny enough I mentioned to dad not long before he passed that the fight doesn't appear to exist on film. His reply was "let's hope it stays like that" :D. He was disappointed with that fight although he did tell me it was a fight while it lasted. Ruben who was I think was at his absolute peak at the time caught him early and he didn't really get over it. Dad said he had never really been stunned like that up to that point in his career and it went against him. If he'd experienced that before he would have tried to grab and hold, spoil his way through but he tried boxing and that didn't work and then decided to have a fight and we all know the outcome. It's a shame really because I think he's more remembered for that fight on your side of bthe Atlantic than any of his others. A return nearly came off in England in 1971 after dad won the European title but never happened. Not saying dad could of beat him but he would of loved that second chance. I was thinking about this when I watched Olivares Kanazawa 2. Kanazawa was stopped in 2 first time round and lasted 14 the second time but he did take a shellaking so maybe some things are for the best.
Dad fought quite a few West Coast and Mexican boxers and said they were all tough, Edmundo Esparza, Jose Cejuda, Felipe Gonzalez, Raul Vega, Manny Elias and Rudy Corona. He picked Esparza out of those lads as the toughest. Esparza actually held a points decision over Fighting Harada in Japan which takes some doing. Gonzalez stopped Chucho Castillo in his next fight and was one of the only fighters to take Olivares to a decision in that fantastic KO run along from German Bastidas who took him to a draw.
There was some great Mexican fighters at that time, Herrera, Medel, Pimental, Raul cruz, Castillo and then later on Lara, Guerrero and Anaya. Dad nearly fought both Pimental and Medel in England and an attempt was made to match him with both on the Rose Olivares undercard. What great fights they might of been. By the way I met Herrera, Alfonso Zamora, Carlos Zarate and Chiquita Gonzales with dad a few months back in Cardiff, Wales of all places. What lovely fellas they were
Mr Norkus are you the son of Charley Norkus, he fought some top men. My name is actually Alan Rudkin Jnr. I picked the name Al Francis because Francis was dad's middle name and he once told me that when he was a kid he was going to go by the name Al Francis as a pro because he felt it sounded more like an old time boxing name than Alan Rudkin.
Thanks for the welcome Randy!
Any questions you's fellas have I'd be happy to oblige. I think I'm gonna be hanging round this site for quite a while. I love boxing and have followed it since I was a child and always manage to turn most conversations round to boxing :OhYes:

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 06 Apr 2011, 10:22
by kikibalt
Back at Norris Cancer Center, sitting and waiting.... :witzend:

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 06 Apr 2011, 10:42
by Cholo
kikibalt wrote:
Cholo wrote:Does anybody know how Chico Vejar is doing these day's, I've been watching Audie Murphy's World In My Corner where Vejar played the part of Al Carelli, also in the film were Cisco Andrade and Art Aragon.....
Paul, can't say that I know anything about what Vejar is up to now days..
Okay Frank, thanks for your reply, i've read much on these old-time fighter's Aragon, Andrade, Salas, Vejar, i'm much too young to remember them....

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 06 Apr 2011, 12:07
by kikibalt
Cholo wrote:
kikibalt wrote:
Cholo wrote:Does anybody know how Chico Vejar is doing these day's, I've been watching Audie Murphy's World In My Corner where Vejar played the part of Al Carelli, also in the film were Cisco Andrade and Art Aragon.....
Paul, can't say that I know anything about what Vejar is up to now days..
Okay Frank, thanks for your reply, i've read much on these old-time fighter's Aragon, Andrade, Salas, Vejar, i'm much too young to remember them....
And I am so old I saw all of them fight... :OhYes: :lol:

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 06 Apr 2011, 12:42
by Cholo
kikibalt wrote:
Cholo wrote:
kikibalt wrote: Paul, can't say that I know anything about what Vejar is up to now days..
Okay Frank, thanks for your reply, i've read much on these old-time fighter's Aragon, Andrade, Salas, Vejar, i'm much too young to remember them....
And I am so old I saw all of them fight... :OhYes: :lol:
LOL Frank, i see Aragon starred in quite a few films, Art quote's in Off Limits that starred Bob Hope and Mickey Rooney he was supposed to pull a punch, but he broke Rooney's jaw..

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 06 Apr 2011, 16:42
by Rick Farris
Randyman wrote:
raylawpc wrote:
Rick Farris wrote: :lol:
Well, actually, I couldn't remember which MMA guy was Liddell, so I googled him and, when I pulled up his photos, I saw this one with the blonde and thought Rick would get a kick out of it.

My two sons each has one of those shirts.

But I repeat (in case you didn't hear me the last time I said it), I AM NOT AN MMA FAN!! :witzend: :wink: :witzend: :wink: :witzend:
Boxing is my sport and I don't follow MMA/UFC but I gotta respect any man that can step up to the plate in their own discipline and become a champion. :TU:
Ditto. :TU: I'm a boxing guy.
It would be fun to teach some of these guys how to punch. Some are really weak in that department.
They gotta be willing to improve, I know some are.
Might make a difference one day? :OhYes:

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 06 Apr 2011, 16:49
by kikibalt
Andre Berto (27-0, 21 KOs) vs. Victor Ortiz (28-2-2, 22 KOs)

What: 12 rounds, for Berto's WBC welterweight title
Where: Foxwoods Resort Casino (Mashantucket, Conn.)
When: Saturday, April 16, 9:45 p.m. ET (HBO)

With his status as one of boxing's top prospects in jeopardy, Victor Ortiz followed a path taken by too many fallen sports stars.

He blamed the media.

"I'm tired of people saying I have no heart or no balls," Ortiz said recently. "At the end of the day, I'm not scared of getting in the ring with anyone."

It's bewildering, really, why Ortiz would look anywhere but in the mirror to explain his recent struggles. After all, he was the one who raised his glove and said no más in 2009 when, under a relentless assault from Marcos Maidana, Ortiz simply chose to quit. He was the one who refused to go for the kill in a majority draw against the light-hitting Lamont Peterson in December, sparking a (justifiable) debate as to whether Ortiz had a killer instinct.

In fact, the only questionable statements being put out there are coming from him. During a recent conference call to promote his April 16 welterweight title fight with Andre Berto, Ortiz told reporters that Maidana was "running left and right, dodging me. When he gets the courage to come out of the closet, he can meet me at 147 [pounds]." He also declared that Maidana, "couldn't put me down," inexplicably ignoring the fact that Maidana dropped him twice before making him quit.

It's true, at times the media can be controversy's accomplice. But Ortiz created this one all by himself. His reputation as a quitter, a fraud, is one he earned, not one inflated by an overzealous media.

Still, the beauty of sports -- boxing in particular -- is that reputations can change in one night. And the 24-year-old Ortiz (28-2-2, 22 KOs) will have a chance to do some serious repair work on his when he meets Berto (27-0, 21 KOs) later this month for Berto's WBC welterweight title. Berto, 27, is an elite 147-pounder in the prime of his career. He has power, speed and a solid chin. A win against that caliber of an opponent would go a long way towards changing the public's perception.

"He's training harder than I've ever seen him train before," Ortiz's promoter, Richard Schaefer, told SI.com. "Sure, I think he is using [the media] as an extra motivator, saying, 'All of you guys who have criticized me, I'm going to prove you all wrong.' Hey, I hope it works."

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 06 Apr 2011, 16:53
by Rick Farris
AlFrancis wrote:Thanks fellas, I feel welcome already. I spent about an hour reading through this thread last night before I posted and it did strike me how polite and well behaved everyone was. :TU:
I've seen some of your posts before Rick about your experience with dad in LA. I did read a post by someone a few years ago about dad's time in LA when a lad in the gym asked about the Lonsdale shorts and dad gave him a pair. That wasn't you by any chance was it? The Olivares fight fascinates me, I think because I've never seen it although I am curious about it and don't know how I'd feel watching it. Funny enough I mentioned to dad not long before he passed that the fight doesn't appear to exist on film. His reply was "let's hope it stays like that" :D. He was disappointed with that fight although he did tell me it was a fight while it lasted. Ruben who was I think was at his absolute peak at the time caught him early and he didn't really get over it. Dad said he had never really been stunned like that up to that point in his career and it went against him. If he'd experienced that before he would have tried to grab and hold, spoil his way through but he tried boxing and that didn't work and then decided to have a fight and we all know the outcome. It's a shame really because I think he's more remembered for that fight on your side of bthe Atlantic than any of his others. A return nearly came off in England in 1971 after dad won the European title but never happened. Not saying dad could of beat him but he would of loved that second chance. I was thinking about this when I watched Olivares Kanazawa 2. Kanazawa was stopped in 2 first time round and lasted 14 the second time but he did take a shellaking so maybe some things are for the best.
Dad fought quite a few West Coast and Mexican boxers and said they were all tough, Edmundo Esparza, Jose Cejuda, Felipe Gonzalez, Raul Vega, Manny Elias and Rudy Corona. He picked Esparza out of those lads as the toughest. Esparza actually held a points decision over Fighting Harada in Japan which takes some doing. Gonzalez stopped Chucho Castillo in his next fight and was one of the only fighters to take Olivares to a decision in that fantastic KO run along from German Bastidas who took him to a draw.
There was some great Mexican fighters at that time, Herrera, Medel, Pimental, Raul cruz, Castillo and then later on Lara, Guerrero and Anaya. Dad nearly fought both Pimental and Medel in England and an attempt was made to match him with both on the Rose Olivares undercard. What great fights they might of been. By the way I met Herrera, Alfonso Zamora, Carlos Zarate and Chiquita Gonzales with dad a few months back in Cardiff, Wales of all places. What lovely fellas they were
Mr Norkus are you the son of Charley Norkus, he fought some top men. My name is actually Alan Rudkin Jnr. I picked the name Al Francis because Francis was dad's middle name and he once told me that when he was a kid he was going to go by the name Al Francis as a pro because he felt it sounded more like an old time boxing name than Alan Rudkin.
Thanks for the welcome Randy!
Any questions you's fellas have I'd be happy to oblige. I think I'm gonna be hanging round this site for quite a while. I love boxing and have followed it since I was a child and always manage to turn most conversations round to boxing :OhYes:
That was me, I had the Lonsdale trunks for many years. Sadly, no longer.
I boxed with many you named in your post, Pimentel, Olivares, many more, even Rudy Corona.
Lots to discuss relating to the era's best bantams, as your dad was one of them.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 06 Apr 2011, 16:57
by Rick Farris
kikibalt wrote:Andre Berto (27-0, 21 KOs) vs. Victor Ortiz (28-2-2, 22 KOs)

What: 12 rounds, for Berto's WBC welterweight title
Where: Foxwoods Resort Casino (Mashantucket, Conn.)
When: Saturday, April 16, 9:45 p.m. ET (HBO)

With his status as one of boxing's top prospects in jeopardy, Victor Ortiz followed a path taken by too many fallen sports stars.

He blamed the media.

"I'm tired of people saying I have no heart or no balls," Ortiz said recently. "At the end of the day, I'm not scared of getting in the ring with anyone."

It's bewildering, really, why Ortiz would look anywhere but in the mirror to explain his recent struggles. After all, he was the one who raised his glove and said no más in 2009 when, under a relentless assault from Marcos Maidana, Ortiz simply chose to quit. He was the one who refused to go for the kill in a majority draw against the light-hitting Lamont Peterson in December, sparking a (justifiable) debate as to whether Ortiz had a killer instinct.

In fact, the only questionable statements being put out there are coming from him. During a recent conference call to promote his April 16 welterweight title fight with Andre Berto, Ortiz told reporters that Maidana was "running left and right, dodging me. When he gets the courage to come out of the closet, he can meet me at 147 [pounds]." He also declared that Maidana, "couldn't put me down," inexplicably ignoring the fact that Maidana dropped him twice before making him quit.

It's true, at times the media can be controversy's accomplice. But Ortiz created this one all by himself. His reputation as a quitter, a fraud, is one he earned, not one inflated by an overzealous media.

Still, the beauty of sports -- boxing in particular -- is that reputations can change in one night. And the 24-year-old Ortiz (28-2-2, 22 KOs) will have a chance to do some serious repair work on his when he meets Berto (27-0, 21 KOs) later this month for Berto's WBC welterweight title. Berto, 27, is an elite 147-pounder in the prime of his career. He has power, speed and a solid chin. A win against that caliber of an opponent would go a long way towards changing the public's perception.

"He's training harder than I've ever seen him train before," Ortiz's promoter, Richard Schaefer, told SI.com. "Sure, I think he is using [the media] as an extra motivator, saying, 'All of you guys who have criticized me, I'm going to prove you all wrong.' Hey, I hope it works."
If Andre Berto achieves nothing more in his career, he'd really impress me if he could retire this Oxnard joker.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 06 Apr 2011, 16:59
by kikibalt
Cholo wrote:
kikibalt wrote:
Cholo wrote: Okay Frank, thanks for your reply, i've read much on these old-time fighter's Aragon, Andrade, Salas, Vejar, i'm much too young to remember them....
And I am so old I saw all of them fight... :OhYes: :lol:
LOL Frank, i see Aragon starred in quite a few films, Art quote's in Off Limits that starred Bob Hope and Mickey Rooney he was supposed to pull a punch, but he broke Rooney's jaw..
Image
Mickey Rooney and Art Aragon

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 06 Apr 2011, 18:14
by AlFrancis
Rick Farris wrote:
AlFrancis wrote:Thanks fellas, I feel welcome already. I spent about an hour reading through this thread last night before I posted and it did strike me how polite and well behaved everyone was. :TU:
I've seen some of your posts before Rick about your experience with dad in LA. I did read a post by someone a few years ago about dad's time in LA when a lad in the gym asked about the Lonsdale shorts and dad gave him a pair. That wasn't you by any chance was it? The Olivares fight fascinates me, I think because I've never seen it although I am curious about it and don't know how I'd feel watching it. Funny enough I mentioned to dad not long before he passed that the fight doesn't appear to exist on film. His reply was "let's hope it stays like that" :D. He was disappointed with that fight although he did tell me it was a fight while it lasted. Ruben who was I think was at his absolute peak at the time caught him early and he didn't really get over it. Dad said he had never really been stunned like that up to that point in his career and it went against him. If he'd experienced that before he would have tried to grab and hold, spoil his way through but he tried boxing and that didn't work and then decided to have a fight and we all know the outcome. It's a shame really because I think he's more remembered for that fight on your side of bthe Atlantic than any of his others. A return nearly came off in England in 1971 after dad won the European title but never happened. Not saying dad could of beat him but he would of loved that second chance. I was thinking about this when I watched Olivares Kanazawa 2. Kanazawa was stopped in 2 first time round and lasted 14 the second time but he did take a shellaking so maybe some things are for the best.
Dad fought quite a few West Coast and Mexican boxers and said they were all tough, Edmundo Esparza, Jose Cejuda, Felipe Gonzalez, Raul Vega, Manny Elias and Rudy Corona. He picked Esparza out of those lads as the toughest. Esparza actually held a points decision over Fighting Harada in Japan which takes some doing. Gonzalez stopped Chucho Castillo in his next fight and was one of the only fighters to take Olivares to a decision in that fantastic KO run along from German Bastidas who took him to a draw.
There was some great Mexican fighters at that time, Herrera, Medel, Pimental, Raul cruz, Castillo and then later on Lara, Guerrero and Anaya. Dad nearly fought both Pimental and Medel in England and an attempt was made to match him with both on the Rose Olivares undercard. What great fights they might of been. By the way I met Herrera, Alfonso Zamora, Carlos Zarate and Chiquita Gonzales with dad a few months back in Cardiff, Wales of all places. What lovely fellas they were
Mr Norkus are you the son of Charley Norkus, he fought some top men. My name is actually Alan Rudkin Jnr. I picked the name Al Francis because Francis was dad's middle name and he once told me that when he was a kid he was going to go by the name Al Francis as a pro because he felt it sounded more like an old time boxing name than Alan Rudkin.
Thanks for the welcome Randy!
Any questions you's fellas have I'd be happy to oblige. I think I'm gonna be hanging round this site for quite a while. I love boxing and have followed it since I was a child and always manage to turn most conversations round to boxing :OhYes:
That was me, I had the Lonsdale trunks for many years. Sadly, no longer.
I boxed with many you named in your post, Pimentel, Olivares, many more, even Rudy Corona.
Lots to discuss relating to the era's best bantams, as your dad was one of them.
Did you ever meet Harry Kabakoff Rick, I'm sure i read once that he was from Liverpool originally. Did you meet Castillo, I think my dad said he was training in the same gym as him he said he regretted not sparring with him.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 06 Apr 2011, 18:58
by Rick Farris
My actor pal, Reb Brown, has been working on a film in Mobile, Alabama for the last two months.
His co-star is Frank Stallone, and the two have a common interest in boxing.
Reb will be bringing Frank Stallone to the CBHOF lunch in June. They'll be at one of our CAWCB tables.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 06 Apr 2011, 19:02
by Rick Farris
AlFrancis wrote:
Rick Farris wrote:
AlFrancis wrote:Thanks fellas, I feel welcome already. I spent about an hour reading through this thread last night before I posted and it did strike me how polite and well behaved everyone was. :TU:
I've seen some of your posts before Rick about your experience with dad in LA. I did read a post by someone a few years ago about dad's time in LA when a lad in the gym asked about the Lonsdale shorts and dad gave him a pair. That wasn't you by any chance was it? The Olivares fight fascinates me, I think because I've never seen it although I am curious about it and don't know how I'd feel watching it. Funny enough I mentioned to dad not long before he passed that the fight doesn't appear to exist on film. His reply was "let's hope it stays like that" :D. He was disappointed with that fight although he did tell me it was a fight while it lasted. Ruben who was I think was at his absolute peak at the time caught him early and he didn't really get over it. Dad said he had never really been stunned like that up to that point in his career and it went against him. If he'd experienced that before he would have tried to grab and hold, spoil his way through but he tried boxing and that didn't work and then decided to have a fight and we all know the outcome. It's a shame really because I think he's more remembered for that fight on your side of bthe Atlantic than any of his others. A return nearly came off in England in 1971 after dad won the European title but never happened. Not saying dad could of beat him but he would of loved that second chance. I was thinking about this when I watched Olivares Kanazawa 2. Kanazawa was stopped in 2 first time round and lasted 14 the second time but he did take a shellaking so maybe some things are for the best.
Dad fought quite a few West Coast and Mexican boxers and said they were all tough, Edmundo Esparza, Jose Cejuda, Felipe Gonzalez, Raul Vega, Manny Elias and Rudy Corona. He picked Esparza out of those lads as the toughest. Esparza actually held a points decision over Fighting Harada in Japan which takes some doing. Gonzalez stopped Chucho Castillo in his next fight and was one of the only fighters to take Olivares to a decision in that fantastic KO run along from German Bastidas who took him to a draw.
There was some great Mexican fighters at that time, Herrera, Medel, Pimental, Raul cruz, Castillo and then later on Lara, Guerrero and Anaya. Dad nearly fought both Pimental and Medel in England and an attempt was made to match him with both on the Rose Olivares undercard. What great fights they might of been. By the way I met Herrera, Alfonso Zamora, Carlos Zarate and Chiquita Gonzales with dad a few months back in Cardiff, Wales of all places. What lovely fellas they were
Mr Norkus are you the son of Charley Norkus, he fought some top men. My name is actually Alan Rudkin Jnr. I picked the name Al Francis because Francis was dad's middle name and he once told me that when he was a kid he was going to go by the name Al Francis as a pro because he felt it sounded more like an old time boxing name than Alan Rudkin.
Thanks for the welcome Randy!
Any questions you's fellas have I'd be happy to oblige. I think I'm gonna be hanging round this site for quite a while. I love boxing and have followed it since I was a child and always manage to turn most conversations round to boxing :OhYes:
That was me, I had the Lonsdale trunks for many years. Sadly, no longer.
I boxed with many you named in your post, Pimentel, Olivares, many more, even Rudy Corona.
Lots to discuss relating to the era's best bantams, as your dad was one of them.
Did you ever meet Harry Kabakoff Rick, I'm sure i read once that he was from Liverpool originally. Did you meet Castillo, I think my dad said he was training in the same gym as him he said he regretted not sparring with him.
I did meet Harry Kabakoff many times. I fought one of his pro bantams, Frankie Granados twice, early in my career.
I box with Chucho Castillo once. He was a good fighter, very busy. I saw him whip Jesus Pimentel, drop Lionel Rose in a title go, and take the world title from the great Olivares in one of their three tough encounters. I sparred with Jesus Pimentel just twice, when I was an amateur, but I boxed his twin brother, featherweight Jose, many times at the Main Street Gym, for a few years on and off.
When your dad talked about sparring with Castillo, it was when both were working out at the Alexandria Hotel in L.A. That's where he tossed me the trunks.
Castillo was training for his fight with Raul Cruz, on the undercard of your dad's title fight against the great Olivares. Your dad fought Olivares hard and had nothing to be ashamed of. He is one of the greatest ever. Your dad also had a go with the best Japanese fighter ever, Fighting Harada. Like to hear his take on both world champs.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 06 Apr 2011, 19:46
by AlFrancis
Rick Farris wrote:
AlFrancis wrote:
Rick Farris wrote: That was me, I had the Lonsdale trunks for many years. Sadly, no longer.
I boxed with many you named in your post, Pimentel, Olivares, many more, even Rudy Corona.
Lots to discuss relating to the era's best bantams, as your dad was one of them.
Did you ever meet Harry Kabakoff Rick, I'm sure i read once that he was from Liverpool originally. Did you meet Castillo, I think my dad said he was training in the same gym as him he said he regretted not sparring with him.
I did meet Harry Kabakoff many times. I fought one of his pro bantams, Frankie Granados twice, early in my career.
I box with Chucho Castillo once. He was a good fighter, very busy. I saw him whip Jesus Pimentel, drop Lionel Rose in a title go, and take the world title from the great Olivares in one of their three tough encounters. I sparred with Jesus Pimentel just twice, when I was an amateur, but I boxed his twin brother, featherweight Jose, many times at the Main Street Gym, for a few years on and off.
When your dad talked about sparring with Castillo, it was when both were working out at the Alexandria Hotel in L.A. That's where he tossed me the trunks.
Castillo was training for his fight with Raul Cruz, on the undercard of your dad's title fight against the great Olivares. Your dad fought Olivares hard and had nothing to be ashamed of. He is one of the greatest ever. Your dad also had a go with the best Japanese fighter ever, Fighting Harada. Like to his take on both world champs.
It must of been a great time time for you all them top fighters about. How do you rate Raul Cruz? I spoke to his son once through you tube, he'd posted highlights of his dad's fight with Raul cruz, the chief support for dad's fight with Olivares. If that fight is about I'm sure my dad's must be about. Cruz faught them all, about 12 world champs with mixed results, a real danger man. Did you see the Rose Cruz fight? His son is trying to get hold of that on film.
I have asked dad about Olivares and Harada and he said Olivares was the best he fought, a lot more than a big puncher and a master of range but that he couldn't write Harada off. He said he was very strong and Olivares might have had a problem finding the room to get his big shots off. Harada was a great fighter and one of the best swarmers there has been because he was such an intelligent fighter and did most of his work behind a great jab and great foot movemement and he knew how to impress the judges. I don't know if you've seen dad's fight with him but dad really fancied his chances in a rematch. He felt he was a bit green, it was his first 15 rounder, he was a bit worried about it and he got off in the fight a bit late but finished up with plenty in the tank at the end of the 15. The Japanese judges scored it pretty wide but the American judge had only 2 points between them. The second half of the fight Harada was really struggling from the consistent body punches dad was landing. Harada did his thing though which was boxing in spurts which had the Japanese crowd screaming and impressed the judges. I think it is a great technical fight to watch. Incidentally I think the Harada-Medel 2 fight was a lot closer than the judges scored it as well. I think the lesson Harada learned in the first Medel fight really served him well and made him a better fighter.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 06 Apr 2011, 20:02
by Rick Farris
kikibalt wrote:The Catastrophist: The Troubled World of Don Jordan

AUTHOR: Carlos Acevedo/Fanside


“Chaos” is the only suitable word to describe the career of Don Jordan. Fifty years after he first won the welterweight title, Jordan remains a mystery without a solution. Not only did Jordan bewilder spectators with his desultory performances, he also mystified trainers, sports writers, police officers, mobsters, and historians, few of whom have bothered to trace a career that reads more like a case study than the narrative of a boxer. Welterweight champion only long enough to make two defenses and accidentally TKO nefarious Frankie Carbo, Jordan left behind a legacy as befuddling as that of Iron Eyes Cody or D.B. Cooper. Like many fighters in the 1950s, Jordan was dogged by ties to mobsters, but it was his own instability that ultimately led to his spectacular crash.

Donald Lee Jordan was born on June 22, 1934, in Los Angeles to a sprawling family estimated to have had anywhere from between 18 to 22 children. Son of a former amateur boxer, Jordan revealed his wild side early, running with street gangs as a teenager and spending time in various reformatories. “ I wasn’t a tough kid,” Jordan once told Lee Greene. “I was real quiet. I just had one big fault. I liked to fight.” His nickname, “Geronimo,” was earned during his stint gang banging in the Russian Flats section of Boyle Heights in East L.A. Jordan dropped out of high school, married at age sixteen, and decided to put his fists to better use.

After a short stint in the amateurs, Jordan turned pro as a lightweight in California in 1953. A converted southpaw with a snappy jab and a busy left hook, Jordan won the State lightweight title less than two years after his debut, defeating Joe Miceli, Art Ramponi and former champion Lauro Salas on his way to a 20-2 record.

In 1955 Jordan lost two decisions to buzzsaw Art Aragon, and subsequently fell into a slump, dropping six of his next twelve fights. Although he managed to beat another ex-champion in faded Paddy Demarco, Jordan lost decisions to Jimmy Carter, Orlando Zulueta, Joey Lopes, LC Morgan, and, for the California State welterweight title, Charley “Tombstone” Smith. A slew of knockover fights in Mexico, where his fluent Spanish and ring finesse made him a popular draw, put Jordan back on track, and when he returned to Los Angeles he hooked up with a used car salesman named Don Nesseth, who turned Jordan over to trainer Eddie Futch and Jackie McCoy for development. An improved Jordan soon ran off a hot streak that included decisions over Isaac Logart and Gaspar Ortega.

Even with his career gathering momentum, Jordan was unable to curb his reckless nature. Bad habits, the kind that sabotage athletic pursuits, were modus vivendi for Jordan. “Not only did Jordan drink but he was a chain cigarette smoker,” recalled Jackie McCoy. “Not many fighters do that. This guy never stopped smoking. But somehow he won the welterweight title.” Jordan, however, did not draw the line at Martinis and Marlboros. In one of the strangest stories to ever come across police blotters involving a boxer, Jordan was arrested on November 8, 1958, for firing arrows from a 60-inch target bow at two women after a dispute. Jordan was booked for assault with a deadly weapon. A belligerent and obviously blotto Jordan could easily have been charged with resisting arrest as well. “While being questioned by detectives,” reported The Los Angeles Times, “Jordan tried to grab the bow and arrow after threatening to shoot the officers and a newspaper reporter-photographer team.” Charges were later dropped, but in time other problems, the kind endemic to boxing in the 1950s, would arise.

When Nesseth asked Jackie Leonard, matchmaker at the Hollywood Legion, to approach IBC viceroy Truman Gibson for big fight exposure for Jordan, he unknowingly set off a chain of events that would eventually change the course of boxing history. No sooner was Gibson in the mix than Jordan was matched up with rugged Virgil Akins for a shot at the welterweight championship. Akins, who won the vacant title by annihilating Vince Martinez in 1958, would be making his first defense against Jordan. Hard-punching “Honeybear” was considered “inconsistent,” one of several euphemisms tossed around boxing in the 1950s, but as a fighter with friends in low places, it is nearly impossible to say how much of his hit-and-miss career was legitimate and how much was not. On December 4, 1958, Jordan plastered the 3-1 favorite over 15 dirty rounds before 7,344 fans at the Olympic Auditorium to win the welterweight championship. His unexpected victory would have dramatic repercussions.

It is hard to imagine someone as erratic as Jordan–who was arrested for possession of marijuana only three weeks after winning the world title–causing the downfall of Frankie Carbo, but truth, as they say, is stranger than fiction. When Nesseth refused to give Carbo a “cut” of Jordan after the Akins match, “Mr. Gray,” along with malignant sidekick Blinky Palermo, resorted to threats. Threats gave way to action, and Jackie Leonard, mistakenly thought by Carbo to be a willing go-between for his underworld shenanigans with Jordan, was beaten senseless by unknown assailants for taking his jitters to authorities. Several arrests, indictments, and trials later, Carbo and Palermo were convicted of conspiracy and extortion for their schemes involving Jordan, and were each sentenced to long bids in prison. The mob stranglehold on boxing had been loosened, courtesy of a prizefighter for whom collateral damage was merely second nature. Even as Carbo and Palermo stewed on the witness stand, Jordan was partying with Mickey Cohen, posterboy of L.A. gangster chic, and drawing the enraged scrutiny of the California State Athletic Commission.

In 1959 Jordan defeated Akins in a rematch at the Kiel Auditorium in St. Louis and then made his second–and last–title defense a few months later against former sparring partner Denny Moyer in a dull and sparsely attended bout in Portland. For the Moyer fight Jordan, who often trained like a man with hypersomnia, weighed in at 148 and ½ pounds and had to sweat down to the limit. ”We never knew what kind of shape he would be for a fight,” Jackie McCoy told Dave Anderson. “Eddie Futch used to train him. When he was getting ready for a fight with Gaspar Ortega he came down with a terrible cold. I thought we should call off the fight, but Futch said, ‘No, he might show up in worse shape.’ Jordan, amazingly, finished strong and won.”

For the next few months Jordan alternated between night crawling through Los Angeles, battling his now ex-wife Stella in court, and testifying to grand juries about racketeers. Finally, the impulsive Jordan decided to make his own career moves. Against the advice of his managers–and with McCoy seeing his cut reduced to training fees only–Jordan went on a short winter tour of South America, where unknown Luis Federico Thompson promptly knocked him out in Argentina. Jordan blamed his first stoppage loss on a mysterious “virus” that might actually have been a combination of mononucleosis and Jake Leg.

Humiliated, Jordan returned to Los Angeles to recover over the holidays. Before long, however, he found himself in one rumpus after another. First, he was suspended by the California State Athletic Commission after refusing to appear for a physical without explanation; then he was arrested on a DWI charge after crashing into two parked cars; next Jack Urch of the Athletic Commission pointed the finger of suspicion directly at “The Geronimo Kid” by bluntly stating, “We want to know why Jordan persists on palling around with Mickey Cohen;” finally, Jordan incurred the wrath of the NBA when he preposterously agreed to a “tune-up” bout with journeyman Candy McFarland less than two weeks before a scheduled defense against Benny Paret. At odds with his brain trust and full of near-surrealist irrationality, Jordan turned down a $12,500 television date with Don Fullmer to face McFarland at Baltimore Stadium for under $1,400.

On May 16, 1960, after a rain delay of two days, McFarland, undistinguished but earnest, cuffed Jordan into a stupor over 10 rounds and copped an easy decision. “It was the best kind of work out I could have got,” Jordan blithely told the press. Oddsmakers immediately installed him as a 3-1 underdog against Paret.

By this time Jordan was considered not only a “cheese champ,” but serious trouble as well. Nevada state boxing commissioner Jim Deskin, vexed by the loose cannon about to step into the Las Vegas Convention Center, assigned a security detail of police detectives to stakeout the Jordan training camp. On May 27, 1960, in the first nationally televised bout from Las Vegas, Paret pounded Jordan over fifteen monotonous rounds. “As early as the fifth round…” reported Sports Illustrated, “it was clear that Don Jordan had lost everything but courage.” And courage was not nearly enough for the 4,805 spectators who booed intermittently as Paret churned away at a champion who could have doubled as a Penitente that night.

Never one for damage control, Jordan compounded his troubles by signing over his entire $85,000 purse for the Paret bout to co-managers Jackie McCoy and Don Nesseth in order to hook up with Las Vegas-based hotel impresario Kirk Kerkorian. “I’d fight ten times for nothing to get rid of Nesseth,” Jordan snarled. Kerkorian, a former amateur boxer, knew little about the labyrinthine world of prizefighting, and, it could be said, his signing of Jordan proved it. With lawyers hounding him for alimony payments, Jordan decided that he would need a little incentive to step into the ring and held promoters ransom for $2,000 in the dressing room. He got the payoff, but that was the last time Don Jordan had things his own way in the topsy-turvy world of boxing.

Over the next two years Jordan would hit the skids running and would win only 2 of his last 11 fights. The boxer with graceful footwork, snappy combinations, and a precision jab seemed to vanish overnight. Other than Carmen Basilio, Tony DeMarco, and Ludwig Lightburn, Jordan suffered his humiliating freefall at the hands of one middling pug after another. Finally, on October 5, 1962, Jordan hit bedrock after being “stopped” in the first round by Battling Torres at the Olympic Auditorium, where Jordan had won the welterweight title less than four years earlier. The California State Athletic Commission immediately suspected a fix and suspended him for life. Don Jordan, only 28 at the time of the Torres fiasco, never fought again. His final record stands at 51-23-1-1.

Today Don Jordan is all but forgotten. If he is remembered at all it is for the sudden tailspin that sent him crashing from welterweight champion to complete washout in less than two years. Why did such a talented boxer unravel so suddenly? Was it the drinking, the carousing, the smoking? Certainly other fighters—from Abe Attell to Harry Greb—burned candles at both ends without sputtering out so quickly. Did the strange virus he claimed was responsible for his loss to Luis Federico Thompson linger on and effect his performances? Or was it merely hard luck? The kind of luck a rough and tumble man like Jordan might believe was the only kind he could expect?

In 1973, over a decade removed from his short-lived and tumultuous heyday, Jordan earned more notoriety after a bizarre interview with Peter Heller. Akin to some of the jailhouse ramblings of Charles Manson, the former welterweight champion of the world claimed, among other things, to have been a paid assassin as a child in the Dominican Republic and to have been a factotum for the underworld throughout his career. One outlandish claim follows another until, finally, the question of veracity becomes moot. His answers are “true” insofar as they function as dark correlatives to his fractured psyche. “Winning the championship was the most awful experience of my life,” Jordan told Heller. “Believe me, it was awful. It was not a thrill to me. I was involved in certain situations, activities not to my advantage, shall we say. I was involved in certain things; to win was not as thrilling as I thought it would be as a fighter. When I lost it I was happy. I was more happy losing it than winning it.”

Boxers, like recently paroled felons, often have difficulty adjusting to the “outside” when their careers are over, and, in this respect, Jordan was no different. He struggled with alcoholism, divorced for a second time, and found it difficult to make a living. “I went from job to job,” he told The Los Angeles Times, “I was a swamper in a produce market, a machinist in the shipyards and a carpet layer. I found there were more people in public against me than there were when I was fighting.”

A few steady years working for Douglas Aircraft in Santa Monica were followed by a stint as a longshoreman in Wilmington. It was there, in the rugged waterfront district of Southern California, that Jordan was savagely beaten during a robbery on September 30, 1996. Two thugs attacked Jordan in broad daylight and left him for dead in a parking lot. Jordan lingered in a coma for nearly five months before dying on February 13, 1997. He was 62 years old. Two men suspected of the murder were later released due to insufficient evidence. His senseless and tragic death was a fitting exclamation point to the unruly life of a boxer who once muttered the bleakest of aphorisms: “But all man knows when he fights he must lose.”

Chaos? Crazy? . . .

Mando Ramos knew Don Jordan real well.
Both were Jackie McCoy fighters, both guys from the docks.
In late 2002 I asked Mando about Jordan.
Ramos shook his head and gave that laugh of his . . . "Hey man, he was crazy. I'm crazy, so I know crazy, and Don Jordan was crazy!"
I sumise that Don Jordan was a crazy bastid. :lol:

I enjoyed the story above, well written.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 06 Apr 2011, 20:23
by Rick Farris
AlFrancis wrote:
Rick Farris wrote:
AlFrancis wrote: Did you ever meet Harry Kabakoff Rick, I'm sure i read once that he was from Liverpool originally. Did you meet Castillo, I think my dad said he was training in the same gym as him he said he regretted not sparring with him.
I did meet Harry Kabakoff many times. I fought one of his pro bantams, Frankie Granados twice, early in my career.
I box with Chucho Castillo once. He was a good fighter, very busy. I saw him whip Jesus Pimentel, drop Lionel Rose in a title go, and take the world title from the great Olivares in one of their three tough encounters. I sparred with Jesus Pimentel just twice, when I was an amateur, but I boxed his twin brother, featherweight Jose, many times at the Main Street Gym, for a few years on and off.
When your dad talked about sparring with Castillo, it was when both were working out at the Alexandria Hotel in L.A. That's where he tossed me the trunks.
Castillo was training for his fight with Raul Cruz, on the undercard of your dad's title fight against the great Olivares. Your dad fought Olivares hard and had nothing to be ashamed of. He is one of the greatest ever. Your dad also had a go with the best Japanese fighter ever, Fighting Harada. Like to his take on both world champs.
It must of been a great time time for you all them top fighters about. How do you rate Raul Cruz? I spoke to his son once through you tube, he'd posted highlights of his dad's fight with Raul cruz, the chief support for dad's fight with Olivares. If that fight is about I'm sure my dad's must be about. Cruz faught them all, about 12 world champs with mixed results, a real danger man. Did you see the Rose Cruz fight? His son is trying to get hold of that on film.
I have asked dad about Olivares and Harada and he said Olivares was the best he fought, a lot more than a big puncher and a master of range but that he couldn't write Harada off. He said he was very strong and Olivares might have had a problem finding the room to get his big shots off. Harada was a great fighter and one of the best swarmers there has been because he was such an intelligent fighter and did most of his work behind a great jab and great foot movemement and he knew how to impress the judges. I don't know if you've seen dad's fight with him but dad really fancied his chances in a rematch. He felt he was a bit green, it was his first 15 rounder, he was a bit worried about it and he got off in the fight a bit late but finished up with plenty in the tank at the end of the 15. The Japanese judges scored it pretty wide but the American judge had only 2 points between them. The second half of the fight Harada was really struggling from the consistent body punches dad was landing. Harada did his thing though which was boxing in spurts which had the Japanese crowd screaming and impressed the judges. I think it is a great technical fight to watch. Incidentally I think the Harada-Medel 2 fight was a lot closer than the judges scored it as well. I think the lesson Harada learned in the first Medel fight really served him well and made him a better fighter.
Touched by a Lonsdale Legend . . .


It's tough to win in Japan, especially when facing a legend as strong as Fighting Harada.
My former stablemate/trainer, Dwight Hawkins KOed two Japanese feathers in Shibata and Ishiyama just a few weeks apart, then fought Harada in '68.
He lost a close split decision he may have won anywhere else?
But still, as your dad pointed out, Harada was a swarmer who went in behind a darting jab.
He's the only guy to whip the great Eder Jofre and did it twice, also close fights in Japan.
I have to say that Fighting Harada lost his title to weight control. Lionel Rose was the beneficiary.

Rose was a brilliant boxer, and I boxed him once before the Olivares fight. He had a great jab, but he was gelded by Olivares.
The times when Ruben Olivares lost his title, or looked bad in a match was due to his own bad habits. He was the best since Jofre and the great Manuel Ortiz.

I can visualize a photo of your dad that I clipped out of a mid-60's boxing publication, not The Ring, maybe Boxing Illustrated or Boxing International.
Your dad is posed with his wrapped hands up, and his Lonsdale Belt wrapped around his Lonsdale trunks. Smile on his baby-face, blonde Beatle-cut hair.
That B&W picture was taped to my wall, with hundreds of other boxing pieces.

Your father walked the walk with bantamweight legends, and came very, very close in what I consider the 118lb division's toughest era ever.
There were great before and after, but never was the competition so tough in the bantamweight division.
I know who all those guys were, I kept my eye out to the British, Commonwealth & European bantams. There was Zurlo from Spain, and Italy's Burruni at 112. Evan Armstrong from Scotland.
We had most of them here. But I remember smiling when I heard Alan Rudkin was coming to town.
I knew where he'd be training, and I knew I would be there.
I was partially raised by my English grandmum, and Rudkin was the best Brit I'd ever see up close, much better than the Brian London I'd watched Jerry Quarry finish off.
Rudkin was facing one of the greatest to ever lace on a glove, and he was going to do it right in the belly of the beast. That's what L.A. was for Mexican legends, a place to be revered.
I revered the Mexican legends and I'm an English-Irish-American mutt.
Olivares surprised nobody when he stopped Alan Rudkin in two rounds.
He'd have surprised nobody had he flattened Joe Frazier that night. That's just how great Ruben Olivares was.
The Ruben Olivares that stopped Alan Rudkin was 54-0, 52 KO's.

Alan Rudkin will always be my all-time favorite English boxer. :bow:

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 06 Apr 2011, 23:12
by CNorkusJr
Dear Alan, One of my good friends is also one of our nations biggest boxing film collectors out there. His name is Kurt Noltimeir from Edina, Minnesota.
I been doing business with Kurt over many years and is completely reliable in service.

Here is his website. Once there, you will see his large collection of fights cataloged in different ways..
If you know a fighter "Won" a fight, look under "fights won and of course vica versa for loses by a fighter.
Some fights above that you men mentioned that I see he has:

Lionel Rose vs Chucho Castillo
I didnt see any Raul Cruz fights but I might have missed.

He does have your fathers fights with Fighting Harada & Lionel Rose.
Unfortunately your dad lost those fights but he has them.
To order them-call Kurt by phone to speak to him personally and mention my name.
He will accommedate you in however you might need in quantity and such. He has respectable prices I think.
If your interested,of course.
http://www.ringwise.com/boxing-videos.html


If by any chance he does not handle "overseas" orders, but I'm pretty sure he does, contact me and I will get them and pass them along to you. They come in DVD form primarily ,but he might have VHS if need be also. Thats why you must talk to him about the order-not email him.

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 06 Apr 2011, 23:34
by scartissue
It must of been a great time time for you all them top fighters about. How do you rate Raul Cruz? I spoke to his son once through you tube, he'd posted highlights of his dad's fight with Raul cruz, the chief support for dad's fight with Olivares. If that fight is about I'm sure my dad's must be about. Cruz faught them all, about 12 world champs with mixed results, a real danger man. Did you see the Rose Cruz fight? His son is trying to get hold of that on film.
I have asked dad about Olivares and Harada and he said Olivares was the best he fought, a lot more than a big puncher and a master of range but that he couldn't write Harada off. He said he was very strong and Olivares might have had a problem finding the room to get his big shots off. Harada was a great fighter and one of the best swarmers there has been because he was such an intelligent fighter and did most of his work behind a great jab and great foot movemement and he knew how to impress the judges. I don't know if you've seen dad's fight with him but dad really fancied his chances in a rematch. He felt he was a bit green, it was his first 15 rounder, he was a bit worried about it and he got off in the fight a bit late but finished up with plenty in the tank at the end of the 15. The Japanese judges scored it pretty wide but the American judge had only 2 points between them. The second half of the fight Harada was really struggling from the consistent body punches dad was landing. Harada did his thing though which was boxing in spurts which had the Japanese crowd screaming and impressed the judges. I think it is a great technical fight to watch. Incidentally I think the Harada-Medel 2 fight was a lot closer than the judges scored it as well. I think the lesson Harada learned in the first Medel fight really served him well and made him a better fighter.[/quote]

Al, welcome aboard. I've conversed with you a couple of times over at eastside boxing. As you can see, if there is anything you wish to know about that era, this is the place to be. Rick duked it out with most of the top banties of that era. Again, welcome aboard.

Scartissue

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 07 Apr 2011, 03:52
by AlFrancis
Thanks Rick, lovely story, you have some great memories. Did you see the Evan Armstrong's fight with Joe Medel by any chance? I believe it was a close fight and could of went either way. Dad met up with Evan a couple of years back. Dad also stayed in touch with Lionel and my mum visited him and his lovely wife Jenny only 18 months ago in Melbourne. Dad sent over a Liverpool football shirt for him with Rose emblazoned on the back. They sent each other video messages a couple of times over the years and dad met up with him and Fighting Harada back in 2004. I actually recorded a tribute from dad to Lionel only 2 days before dad passed. It was to celebrate Lionels induction as a living legend into the Australian Boxing Hall of Fame. The tribute was played on the big night after dad's death and I believe it was very moving for Lionel.
Thanks Charley I'll look at that site although I have got quite a few of dad's fight and uploaded all of the stuff that is on youtube. i've also got copies of dad's fights with Rudy Corona and Manny Elias.
Thanks for the welcome Scartissue, like you say we've met before on ESB.
Rick, I mentioned before that I met Alfonso Zamora and Carlos Zarate and I meant to ask them if they were ever in the gym together and sparred with Ruben when they were all with Cuyo Hernandez. I'd loved to of been a fly on the wall to see them sessions. Do you know anything about that?

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 07 Apr 2011, 04:59
by bennie
I wish I knew more about Alan and his fights but he was before my time so it is great to read these posts by his son. :TU:

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 07 Apr 2011, 06:36
by AlFrancis
bennie wrote:I wish I knew more about Alan and his fights but he was before my time so it is great to read these posts by his son. :TU:
Thanks Bennie! :TU:

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 07 Apr 2011, 07:51
by THEHAMMER321
Good morning all coffee crew members. :TU:

Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Posted: 07 Apr 2011, 08:03
by kikibalt
THEHAMMER321 wrote:Good morning all coffee crew members. :TU:
Morning Paul....