Post Your Scorecards

[Counter-puncher]

I think its somewhere in 'McIlvanney on Boxing'

[Seamus]

Counterpuncher, here's that same right hand landing on Azumah Nelson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZTNT_gN3vg (start about 1:10) and Eusebio Pedroza https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILDS0IiUExA (start at 10:15)

[Counter-puncher]

Ha, thanks Seamus I'll check it out.

The other thing I really remember about the fight is mcguigan pushing laporte back with those straight right hands to the body. Datsue will be in to post a froch-Kessler 1 gif with me saying that. Its kind of like saying beetlejuice.

Keep your scorecards coming guys, I enjoy revisiting some of these fights through your scoring.

[Ambling Alp II]

Wilfredo Gomez-Rocky Lockridge

Rd 1 10-9 L
Rd 2 10-9 L
Rd 3 10-9 G
Rd 4 10-9 L
Rd 5 10-9 L
Rd 6 10-9 L
Rd 7 10-9 L
Rd 8 10-9 L
Rd 9 10-9 L
Rd 10 10-9 L
Rd 11 10-10 Even
Rd 12 10-9 G
Rd 13 10-9 L
Rd 14 10- L
Rd 15 10-10 Even

I scored 148-139 for Lockridge (11-2-2 in rounds)
The first few seconds of round one are lost to technical difficulty. Doesn't seem like we missed much.
I almost scored round 10 a 10-8 round for Lockridge
Rounds 2-4 were very close with a lot of great action.
Rounds 11,13, and 15 were close with almost no action.

One judge had it a 144-144 draw (which would be 6-6-3)
One had it 145-144 for Gomez, and the other had it 145-143 for Gomez.

This is the kind of fight that brings out worst of boxing. It was in Gomez's backyard; his fans screamed ever time he did anything. For all practical purposes, Gomez stopped fighting after the 4th round. After the final bell, it took way too long to collect the scorecards, which is a red flag that a robbery is about to take place.

Of all the fights that I ever seen, I am not sure if I have seen a fight where I had one guy winning by this big of a margin and not get the decision.

[crl333]

Gomez v Lockridge
1. 9-10 Lockridge
2. 10-10 Even
3. 10-9 Gomez
4. 10-9 Gomez
5. 10-10 Even
6. 9-10 Lockridge
7. 9-10 Lockridge
8. 9-10 Lockridge
9. 9-10 Lockridge
10. 9-10 Lockridge
11. 10-9 Gomez
12. 10-9 Gomez
13. 10-9 Gomez
14. 9-10 Lockridge
15. 9-10 Lockridge

8-5-2 in rounds. 145-142 Lockridge
Gave six of the rounds clearly to Lockridge, the tenth could easily be a 10-8 if you don't insist on a knockdown. Gave only one round clearly to Gomez.

[scartissue]

Julio Cesar Chavez vs. Juan LaPorte

Always heard what a tight decision this was and I also remember Flash Gordon's old publication screaming that LaPorte was robbed. So here we go.

Round 1: 10-9 LaPorte
Round 2: 10-9 Chavez
Round 3: 10-9 LaPorte
Round 4: 10-10 Even
Round 5: 10-9 Chavez
Round 6: 10-9 Chavez
Round 7: 10-10 Even
Round 8: 10-10 Even (Chavez was winning this round until LaPorte really came back at the end to even it)
Round 9: 9-9 Even (Chavez was winning but was penalized a point for a low blow)
Round 10: 10-9 Chavez
Round 11: 10-9 Chavez
Round 12: 10-9 Chavez

Total: 117-113 Chavez

Never had so many even rounds. Great fight and the 11th and 12th were outstanding. LaPorte was the harder hitter and Chavez the sharper and busier. That was always the problem with LaPorte. You needed to set a fire under his stool to get him to throw punches. He could have taken this and I don't have an issue with people griping on the decision. Regardless of my score, it was damn close.

[Counter-puncher]

Good post, I hadn't seem the fight before but checked it out on youtube, like you say lots of close rounds and a good, tough fight between two skilled operators.

[scartissue]

Thanks, Counter. I took on another one today. Haven't watched it since it took place back in '79 but wanted to re-tackle the first Saad Muhammad - John Conteh encounter. Was a huge Conteh fan back in the day and may have leaned a little towards him back then. Watching it now more impartial I can say that although John's defense was brilliant, he relied too heavily on it and needed to be busier offensively. There were times that were screaming out for a Conteh counter when he seemed to be more content with ducking away and resuming jabbing. Anyways here we go. 10 point must system.

Round 1: 10-9 Saad
Round 2: 10-10 Even
Round 3: 10-10 Even
Round 4: 10-9 Saad
Round 5: 10-9 Saad
Round 6: 10-9 Conteh
Round 7: 10-9 Conteh
Round 8: 10-9 Conteh
Round 9: 10-9 Saad
Round 10: 10-9 Saad
Round 11: 10-9 Conteh
Round 12: 10-9 Conteh
Round 13: 10-10 Even
Round 14: 10-7 Saad (2 knockdowns)
Round 15: 10-9 Saad

145-141 Saad Muhammad

Of course, the fan in me will always say that the Conteh from '74 would have taken Saad. But regardless, two great warriors.

[scartissue]

One more I had to check out was the Wilfredo Gomez-Azumah Nelson fight. I had an old tape on this but I think it started in the 4th round. Check out the youtube vid, but there are different versions. Make sure you watch the English version with Al Bernstein commentating (it's a whole video about 54 minutes i think) because the clarity is far better than the ones that are broken up into parts and with the spanish commentators. Those are a bit blurry. Anyways here we go.

Round 1: 10-9 Nelson
Round 2: 10-10 Even
Round 3: 10-9 Nelson (I think Bernstein gave this to Gomez but he missed more than he landed - his timing got better as the fight went on)
Round 4: 10-9 Nelson
Round 5: 10-9 Gomez
Round 6: 10-9 Gomez
Round 7: 10-10 Even
Round 8: 10-9 Nelson
Round 9: 10-9 Gomez
Round 10: 10-9 Nelson
Round 11: KO for Nelson

Through 10 completed rounds I had Nelson up 97-95. I believe officially that Gomez was leading on two judges scorecards and even on the third. I can assure you that the puerto Rican audience carried a lot of influence. Two of the best officials I've seen - Dick young and Harry Gibb - seemed rattled in San juan. Young had Gomez leading in this fight and Gibb let Gomez get away with murder in the Zarate fight. Also here you can see Octavio Meyran would not take points from Gomez for continuous low blows. Anyways, that's me on my soapbox for today.

[scartissue]

Muhammad Ali v Ken Norton II

R1.MA
R2.MA
R3.MA
R4.KN
R5.MA
R6.MA
R7.KN
R8.KN
R9.KN
R10 MA
R11.Even
R12.MA

Muhammad Ali 7-4-1 on rounds.

Can't see a case for Norton winning this fight as some people have claimed over the years. Whenever Ali used lateral movement and his jab he dominated. Norton made it competitive and had his moments, often when Ali layed on the ropes, but in the end, Ali's movement kept Norton from throwing the combinations he needed in order to win.

Seamus, just saw this in the past pages. I too never saw the controversy in this bout. I'm in the minority on this series because I agreed with the decisions in all 3 bouts. Anyways, you and I are fairly close in score.

Round 1: Ali
Round 2: Ali
Round 3: Ali
Round 4: Ali
Round 5: Even
Round 6: Ali
Round 7: Norton
Round 8: Norton
Round 9: Ali
Round 10: Even
Round 11: Norton
Round 12: Ali

7-3-2 in rounds but 7-3 on California point system for Ali.

[scartissue]

I know this isn't exactly a classic fight, but this was one I missed on Holmes' oldtimers tour, which I had always heard was disputed. So here we go, Larry Holmes vs. Maurice Harris

Round 1: 10-10 Even
Round 2: 10-9 Harris
Round 3: 10-9 Holmes
Round 4: 10-10 Even
Round 5: 10-9 Harris
Round 6: 10-9 Holmes
Round 7: 10-9 Holmes
Round 8: 10-9 Harris
Round 9: 10-9 Harris
Round 10: 10-9 Harris

97-95 Harris

I believe that Harris did deserve that decision. This was a jaded Holmes fighting on memory, but regardless of what Larry did in his youth, Harris should have got the nod here.

[Seamus]

Salvador Sanchez vs Rocky Garcia

Salvador Sanchez 149-137

Sanchez won every round except for the 7th, which was 9-9 due to a shot south of the Rio Grande that dropped Garcia for some time and lost him a pt through deduction, and the 12th and 13th which were just too competitive not to call even. Maybe not getting a stoppage over a relatively unknown fighter (Sanchez hadn't even seen film of him) was a little disappointing for Sanchez, but he still ended up with a very dominant performance over a game opponent who took a beating and never went down officially.

[elmersalsa]

Sugar Ray Leonard vs Wilfred Benitez

R1.10-9 RL
R2.10-10
R3.10-8 RL (Benitez dropped by a short sneaky left )
R4.10-9 RL
R5.10-10
R6.10-9 WB (Benitez forehead cut from an accidental collision)
R7.10-10
R8.10-9 RL
R9.10-9 RL
R10.10-9 WB
R11.10-9 RL
R12.10-9 RL
R13.10-9 RL
R14.10-9 WB

137-131 for Sugar Ray Leonard at the time of the stoppage.

If Leonard had one possible weakness, it was that he could be too patient at times. Yes, it could be dangerous to be too aggressive against Benitez at times, but in several rounds, he could have made more use of his jab. Still it's hard to find much fault with Leonard for a bout he still would have won wide had it not been stopped. With a 10-8 final rd, my score would have been 147-139 over a prime Wilfred Benitez.

That fight was MUCH CLOSER than your score, Seamus. I was crying for Sugar Ray to knock him out. I thought that Ray was winning, but not by much. It was 136-135 for Leonard in my view.

[elmersalsa]

Ishimatsu (Guts) Suzuki vs. Ken Buchanan

Here's a fight I always wanted to check out. I obviously differ from the official scores, but I think Buchanan's neat boxing was largely ignored in this fight. The crowd screamed at anything Suzuki threw and it may have intimidated most. Regardless, this is the way I scored it.

Round 1: 10-9 Buchanan
Round 2: 10-10 Even
Round 3: 10-10 Even
Round 4: 10-9 Buchanan
Round 5: 10-9 Suzuki
Round 6: 10-9 Buchanan
Round 7: 10-9 Buchanan
Round 8: 10-9 Buchanan
Round 9: 10-9 Suzuki
Round 10: 10-9 Buchanan
Round 11: 10-9 Buchanan
Round 12: 10-9 Suzuki
Round 13: 10-9 Suzuki
Round 14: 10-9 Suzuki
Round 15: 10-9 Suzuki

144-143 Buchanan

Itshimatsu Suzuki won FAIR AND SQUARE. The last rounds were critical

[elmersalsa]

I had both fights of Eusebio Pedroza vs Rocky Lockridge by the score 145-142. I believe that Lockridge Lost the first fight due to INEXPERIENCE. HE ONLY HAD 17 FIGHTS AT THE TIME. Pedroza was a cagey veteran making his tenth title defense.

On the second fight, Pedroza started much faster and dominated Rocky. He didn't need to go all out down the stretch like the first fight. This guy, Pedroza, in his prime, was a total master and great technician. A COMPLETE FIGHTER he was. It amazed me how he carried himself with poise and utterly confidence. I could see why the greats like Salvador Sanchez, Wilfredo Gomez nor Azumah Nelson wanted anything with this guy. He was too great.

[Counter-puncher]

Sugar Ray Leonard vs Wilfred Benitez

R1.10-9 RL
R2.10-10
R3.10-8 RL (Benitez dropped by a short sneaky left )
R4.10-9 RL
R5.10-10
R6.10-9 WB (Benitez forehead cut from an accidental collision)
R7.10-10
R8.10-9 RL
R9.10-9 RL
R10.10-9 WB
R11.10-9 RL
R12.10-9 RL
R13.10-9 RL
R14.10-9 WB

137-131 for Sugar Ray Leonard at the time of the stoppage.

If Leonard had one possible weakness, it was that he could be too patient at times. Yes, it could be dangerous to be too aggressive against Benitez at times, but in several rounds, he could have made more use of his jab. Still it's hard to find much fault with Leonard for a bout he still would have won wide had it not been stopped. With a 10-8 final rd, my score would have been 147-139 over a prime Wilfred Benitez.

That fight was MUCH CLOSER than your score, Seamus. I was crying for Sugar Ray to knock him out. I thought that Ray was winning, but not by much. It was 136-135 for Leonard in my view.

you are way, way, way off.

[Seamus]

All I can say Elmer, is that if you really believe Pedroza won the first fight against Lockridge, you're in a very small minority, and it's got nothing to do with any pro-American bias, because one of my alltime favorite fighters is Salvador Sanchez, and I'm also a big fan of Eder Jofre, Khaosai Galaxy, and many other non-Americans. In one of the most controversial endings of our lifetime, i,e, Chavez vs Taylor I, I sided 100 pct with the Mexican fighter.

[elmersalsa]

All I can say Elmer, is that if you really believe Pedroza won the first fight against Lockridge, you're in a very small minority, and it's got nothing to do with any pro-American bias, because one of my alltime favorite fighters is Salvador Sanchez, and I'm also a big fan of Eder Jofre, Khaosai Galaxy, and many other non-Americans. In one of the most controversial endings of our lifetime, i,e, Chavez vs Taylor I, I sided 100 pct with the Mexican fighter.

Is all a matter of opinion. The great Eusebio Pedroza was the better fighter....twice!

[elmersalsa]

Sugar Ray Leonard vs Wilfred Benitez

R1.10-9 RL
R2.10-10
R3.10-8 RL (Benitez dropped by a short sneaky left )
R4.10-9 RL
R5.10-10
R6.10-9 WB (Benitez forehead cut from an accidental collision)
R7.10-10
R8.10-9 RL
R9.10-9 RL
R10.10-9 WB
R11.10-9 RL
R12.10-9 RL
R13.10-9 RL
R14.10-9 WB

137-131 for Sugar Ray Leonard at the time of the stoppage.

If Leonard had one possible weakness, it was that he could be too patient at times. Yes, it could be dangerous to be too aggressive against Benitez at times, but in several rounds, he could have made more use of his jab. Still it's hard to find much fault with Leonard for a bout he still would have won wide had it not been stopped. With a 10-8 final rd, my score would have been 147-139 over a prime Wilfred Benitez.

That fight was MUCH CLOSER than your score, Seamus. I was crying for Sugar Ray to knock him out. I thought that Ray was winning, but not by much. It was 136-135 for Leonard in my view.

you are way, way, way off.

Way off? I don't know what kind of fight you was watching. The great Wilfred Benitez was very UNCOMFORTABLE for Sugar Ray. This was a wearily fought tactical fight. Benitez was winning the last round and was better in the inside exchanges. If he would've never been knocked down and finished standing on his feet, he would've pulled off a draw in my view, and kept his title. I am glad Ray knocked him out.

[scartissue]

Ishimatsu (Guts) Suzuki vs. Ken Buchanan

Here's a fight I always wanted to check out. I obviously differ from the official scores, but I think Buchanan's neat boxing was largely ignored in this fight. The crowd screamed at anything Suzuki threw and it may have intimidated most. Regardless, this is the way I scored it.

Round 1: 10-9 Buchanan
Round 2: 10-10 Even
Round 3: 10-10 Even
Round 4: 10-9 Buchanan
Round 5: 10-9 Suzuki
Round 6: 10-9 Buchanan
Round 7: 10-9 Buchanan
Round 8: 10-9 Buchanan
Round 9: 10-9 Suzuki
Round 10: 10-9 Buchanan
Round 11: 10-9 Buchanan
Round 12: 10-9 Suzuki
Round 13: 10-9 Suzuki
Round 14: 10-9 Suzuki
Round 15: 10-9 Suzuki

144-143 Buchanan

Itshimatsu Suzuki won FAIR AND SQUARE. The last rounds were critical

Elmer, barring the apparently biased Japanese scorecard (9-1-5 for Suzuki), what Dick Young (8-6-1 Suzuki) and Harry Gibbs (6-5-4 Suzuki) have in common with my card (7-6-2 Buchanan) is that each of us had it very close. What we don't have in common is that I had the luxury of watching it at home and did not have fan intimidation working against me. Like you said, the last rounds were critical. Had Suzuki not started his kamikaze attack in the 12th round, he could not have pulled that fight from the fire. When i have a scorecard that close after 15 rounds, I really don't have too much of a problem if its a draw or goes the other way - providing its close. You did not mention your scorecard. Could you provide it?

[Counter-puncher]

Give him enough time, he'll go away and make up a scorecard to fit his argument

[elmersalsa]

Give him enough time, he'll go away and make up a scorecard to fit his argument

I saw the fight twice, and Guts Itshimatsu pulled it off. Great fight. One of the most underrated fights in lightweight world title fight history

[elmersalsa]

This is my scoring of Leonard vs Benitez

Round 1: Leonard
Round 2: Even
Round 3: Leonard... A 10-8 round without a doubt
Round 4: Benitez
Round 5: Benitez
Round 6: Benitez....Benitez evened the fight
Round 7: Even
Round 8: Leonard
Round 9: Benitez
Round 10: Even
Round 11: Leonard
Round 12: Even
Round 13: Leonard
Round 14: Benitez
Round 15: In my view, if Benitez never would have been down, and finished the fight on his feet, he would have kept the crown by a draw. I would've been the second draw of the evening. The score was 135-134 at time of stoppage.

[scartissue]

Just watched a great old 10 rounder that I never knew was out there. Mando Ramos vs. Kang-IL Suh from 1967. Here we go, California scoring system: Up to 5 points for a round (generally just one point unless there is a knockdown or multiple knockdowns where further points can be added) and no points for an even round.

Round 1: Suh
Round 2: Suh
Round 3: Ramos
Round 4: Ramos
Round 5: Suh
Round 6: Even
Round 7: Even
Round 8: Ramos
Round 9: Suh
Round 10: Even

Total: 4-3 Suh

This was the 18 year old Ramos' first loss. I'm amazed myself of having 3 even rounds in a 10 rounder, but although Suh was throwing a lot of flashy combos to the head, Ramos' bodywork was something else and can't go unmentioned. I would have loved to have been ringside for this one. I'll bet the thumping sound from those body shots would have been sickening. Fair play to both fighters for a great 10 rounder.

[Seamus]

Eusebio Pedroza vs Jorge Jujan

R1.10-10 Even
R2.10-10 Even
R3.10-9 JL
R4.10-10 Even
R5.10-10 Even
R6.!0-10 Even
R7.10-10 Even
R8.10-9 EP
R9.10-9 EP
R10.10-9 EP
R11.10-9 EP
R12.10-9 EP
R13.10-9 EP
R14.10-8 EP (Lujan down)
R15.10-10 Even

Eusebio Pedroza 149-142

I think the battle of the Panamanians was my all time record for rounds I called even with 7. I had it 7-1-7 on rds for Pedroza, who once again came on strong in the second half of a fight. The first half was excellent, and even though the action wasn't as good later on I'd still recommend watching this fight, especially to see how many rds others saw as even.