BoxRec

Posted: **01 Jun 2020, 17:38**

Cap wrote: ↑01 Jun 2020, 12:46 Neven Pajkic was only 2 inches taller than Liston and nowhere near as skilled but he managed to put Tyson Fury down. If that had been Liston instead, Fury would not have gotten up.

When Liston was active there were at least 10 times as many pro boxers around as there are today. What you have now is the best of a very feeble lot.

I'm not sure why, but that is evidently NOT relevant in this conversation at all.

The only thing that matters is some guys went the distance with Liston, and current guys are bigger, therefore Liston cannot win.

Liston's relative talent level has no impact on this question. Or, in the alternative, that he DOES NOT have the talent level to bridge the gap and compete is a foregone conclusion that cannot be argued. How one arrives at that when he has not competed in 2020 is beyond me, but there it is.

Any evidence that shows, SHOWS mind you, not merely suggests or infers, that a smaller fighter can hurt, knock down, and even finish a larger fighter does nothing to undermine the argument that Liston is smaller, guys went the distance, and these behemoths cannot be hurt by a smaller fighter like Liston. And, it's Sonny Liston we're discussing here, a guy who was generally thought of as being quite powerful.

But, that brings us to another rule, what someone else or even what many have said is wholly unreliable. The only thing that matters is EO's eye test which tells him that Liston is not particularly powerful. And certainly not powerful enough to do what: Cunningham, Pajkic, and David Haye among others have done. This point is obvious because of some results on Liston's boxrec page. Results can tell us a lot, unless it's Harry Greb, then it tells us nothing. It is possible, that only EO can interpret results on a boxrec page.

We all employ constant strawman and red herring arguments, but EO never does. And again, any argument that speaks to Liston's talents or what the smaller fighter has done in the ring is failing to present any argument at all about Liston possibly being competitive. Only a reference to the weight of today's fighters and Liston's decision victories makes for a compelling argument.

And, finally, anyone who says Liston could possibly compete possess neither the requisite knowledge of Liston, or any current day heavyweights, and needs to watch more boxing.

Welcome, CAP!

Posted: **01 Jun 2020, 17:41**

EO is comic gold.

Posted: **01 Jun 2020, 17:42**

John wrote: ↑15 May 2020, 03:29

Code: Select all

year	COUNT(*)
1866	1
1867	2
1869	7
1870	4
1871	7
1872	41
1873	28
1874	22
1875	27
1876	21
1877	53
1878	41
1879	64
1880	38
1881	46
1882	143
1883	206
1884	391
1885	431
1886	956
1887	843
1888	714
1889	1035
1890	1115
1891	938
1892	1040
1893	1094
1894	1153
1895	1580
1896	2710
1897	3772
1898	3839
1899	5071
1900	6746
1901	4978
1902	7364
1903	6502
1904	6863
1905	7297
1906	7037
1907	6803
1908	8800
1909	12018
1910	15574
1911	14709
1912	14300
1913	12908
1914	11566
1915	11317
1916	13464
1917	12039
1918	8309
1919	15673
1920	21580
1921	24943
1922	30339
1923	31787
1924	32659
1925	30709
1926	33598
1927	38477
1928	43377
1929	45260
1930	49612
1931	48785
1932	43786
1933	40729
1934	37765
1935	40869
1936	33449
1937	30530
1938	27935
1939	25221
1940	19901
1941	17841
1942	16445
1943	16318
1944	18615
1945	20356
1946	34773
1947	34037
1948	29060
1949	26315
1950	22006
1951	18966
1952	17871
1953	16881
1954	16813
1955	15413
1956	14385
1957	14099
1958	14301
1959	13330
1960	12914
1961	12712
1962	11930
1963	10756
1964	10163
1965	9682
1966	10183
1967	10023
1968	10116
1969	10415
1970	11785
1971	11900
1972	10900
1973	10997
1974	10059
1975	9966
1976	10061
1977	11472
1978	11265
1979	12399
1980	12893
1981	14423
1982	15857
1983	15339
1984	13118
1985	12966
1986	11796
1987	12162
1988	12608
1989	13430
1990	13794
1991	13047
1992	13573
1993	14554
1994	13903
1995	14384
1996	14393
1997	15181
1998	14390
1999	15450
2000	15283
2001	16207
2002	17098
2003	17241
2004	18462
2005	19598
2006	20108
2007	20705
2008	20641
2009	20887
2010	21140
2011	22669
2012	22506
2013	23254
2014	22346
2015	25121
2016	26901
2017	26860
2018	27611
2019	30900
2020	7153

Posted: **01 Jun 2020, 17:54**

Tony1244 wrote: ↑01 Jun 2020, 13:53
Cap wrote: ↑01 Jun 2020, 12:46 Neven Pajkic was only 2 inches taller than Liston and nowhere near as skilled but he managed to put Tyson Fury down. If that had been Liston instead, Fury would not have gotten up.

When Liston was active there were at least 10 times as many pro boxers around as there are today. What you have now is the best of a very feeble lot.
Yup. While humans have become bigger, faster, and stronger, that's not the entire equation. The percentage of people participating perhaps is equally as important. In the US boxing was very common in the early and mid 20th century. Cities were littered with boxing gyms and college had boxing!

There are better Japanese baseball players than Chinese, because more Japanese play baseball. A country won't produce chess champions if almost no one plays chess.

This is the only thing that gives me pause regarding the progression of boxing. Pretty much any other sport, it seems that more people than ever are competing and competing at a very high level. It just stands to reason that players are getting better. And I hate to admit that because all of my favorite players in other sports played quite awhile ago.

But, boxing could be different. It does seem like there are fewer fighters, fewer fights, and fewer tough fights for top level guys. Moreover, to offer a point made by OneTimeOnly, the fights are shorter and the pace isn't as fast (at least in the HW division certainly), so I'm not sure at all that we can assume that conditioning is better across the board. It is the only sport that makes me wonder if the progression isn't simply a straight line showing participants getting better and better?

Also, it's worth noting, that hand to hand combat and boxing itself has been around forever, at a certain point you reach a point where there isn't all that much new you can really do, can you? I mean, does it REALLY change that much? Believe it or not, I've watched a decent amount of boxing, it doesn't look THAT different over time. Sure, maybe over 100 years or more, but even then, I don't know how much the sport changed, or how much the equipment and rules changed.

Anyway, good point.

Posted: **01 Jun 2020, 17:54**

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑01 Jun 2020, 17:42

John wrote: ↑15 May 2020, 03:29

Code: Select all

year	COUNT(*)
1866	1
1867	2
1869	7
1870	4
1871	7
1872	41
1873	28
1874	22
1875	27
1876	21
1877	53
1878	41
1879	64
1880	38
1881	46
1882	143
1883	206
1884	391
1885	431
1886	956
1887	843
1888	714
1889	1035
1890	1115
1891	938
1892	1040
1893	1094
1894	1153
1895	1580
1896	2710
1897	3772
1898	3839
1899	5071
1900	6746
1901	4978
1902	7364
1903	6502
1904	6863
1905	7297
1906	7037
1907	6803
1908	8800
1909	12018
1910	15574
1911	14709
1912	14300
1913	12908
1914	11566
1915	11317
1916	13464
1917	12039
1918	8309
1919	15673
1920	21580
1921	24943
1922	30339
1923	31787
1924	32659
1925	30709
1926	33598
1927	38477
1928	43377
1929	45260
1930	49612
1931	48785
1932	43786
1933	40729
1934	37765
1935	40869
1936	33449
1937	30530
1938	27935
1939	25221
1940	19901
1941	17841
1942	16445
1943	16318
1944	18615
1945	20356
1946	34773
1947	34037
1948	29060
1949	26315
1950	22006
1951	18966
1952	17871
1953	16881
1954	16813
1955	15413
1956	14385
1957	14099
1958	14301
1959	13330
1960	12914
1961	12712
1962	11930
1963	10756
1964	10163
1965	9682
1966	10183
1967	10023
1968	10116
1969	10415
1970	11785
1971	11900
1972	10900
1973	10997
1974	10059
1975	9966
1976	10061
1977	11472
1978	11265
1979	12399
1980	12893
1981	14423
1982	15857
1983	15339
1984	13118
1985	12966
1986	11796
1987	12162
1988	12608
1989	13430
1990	13794
1991	13047
1992	13573
1993	14554
1994	13903
1995	14384
1996	14393
1997	15181
1998	14390
1999	15450
2000	15283
2001	16207
2002	17098
2003	17241
2004	18462
2005	19598
2006	20108
2007	20705
2008	20641
2009	20887
2010	21140
2011	22669
2012	22506
2013	23254
2014	22346
2015	25121
2016	26901
2017	26860
2018	27611
2019	30900
2020	7153

??

Posted: **01 Jun 2020, 17:57**

Fights per year in BoxRec. Very interesting. Obviously some years incomplete, especially ones way back. Seems like 1920-1940 has most on record, then goes downhill but has increased lately.

Posted: **01 Jun 2020, 18:02**

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑01 Jun 2020, 17:57 Fights per year in BoxRec. Very interesting. Obviously some years incomplete, especially ones way back. Seems like 1920-1940 has most on record, then goes downhill but has increased lately.

The rise in fights seems to have begun after the fall of the iron curtain. Makes sense.

Posted: **01 Jun 2020, 18:09**

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑01 Jun 2020, 17:57 Fights per year in BoxRec. Very interesting. Obviously some years incomplete, especially ones way back. Seems like 1920-1940 has most on record, then goes downhill but has increased lately.

Interesting, I don't know entirely what to make of it. But, it does go against the notion that boxing is shrinking. Yet, there were more gyms weren't there? And how are there so many fights now with all the MMA around too??

I must know 20 guys who train MMA and not one who trains as a boxer. They're not all professional fighters mind you, but that's the ratio. I'd be surprised if it wasn't the same for most on here.

Posted: **01 Jun 2020, 18:10**

Where are you from

Posted: **01 Jun 2020, 18:18**

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑01 Jun 2020, 18:10 Where are you from

If you were asking me, I'm from The US.

I'm pretty sure it's shrinking here, but I can certainly see that it could be growing (or at least still quite healthy) elsewhere.

Posted: **01 Jun 2020, 18:32**

I definitely think the whole boxing is dying stuff comes disporportionately from americans

It's been pumping in the UK with the biggest crowds ever, been stronger than ever in Eastern block (at the all time peak for hard to pronounce names ), still great Japanese scene, tons of Mexicans, still taking it up , maybe more Philipinos than ever with the Pac is gawd craze (not that these are hws lol), top Cubans been turning over more etc. Even seen multiple Chinese champs and contenders recently

Posted: **01 Jun 2020, 18:40**

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑01 Jun 2020, 18:32 I definitely think the whole boxing is dying stuff comes disporportionately from americans

It's been pumping in the UK with the biggest crowds ever, been stronger than ever in Eastern block (at the all time peak for hard to pronounce names ), still great Japanese scene, tons of Mexicans, still taking it up , maybe more Philipinos than ever (not that these are hws lol), top Cubans been turning over more etc. Even seen multiple Chinese champs and contenders recently

It's been dying in America for years. GB had a hugh boost after the 2012 and 2016 Olympics it seems.

Posted: **01 Jun 2020, 18:42**

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑01 Jun 2020, 18:32 I definitely think the whole boxing is dying stuff comes disporportionately from americans

It's been pumping in the UK with the biggest crowds ever, been stronger than ever in Eastern block (at the all time peak for hard to pronounce names ), still great Japanese scene, tons of Mexicans, still taking it up , maybe more Philipinos than ever (not that these are hws lol), top Cubans been turning over more etc. Even seen multiple Chinese champs and contenders recently

I agree. Both that it seems to be shrinking in the US and that it seems to be doing quite well in many other places.

I assume you are in the UK? How popular is MMA there? Not just professionally, but in terms of just regular people training?

Posted: **01 Jun 2020, 18:44**

MMaS gotten popular but it hasn't stopped us from having an awesome boxing scene with the biggest crowds ever in recent years. At amateur and pro level the fighters have been excelling too. It's very much the opposite of the 'smaller crowds, less fights, worse fighters' narrative

Posted: **01 Jun 2020, 20:42**

I already mentioned this but I have to mention it again because it's funny. The light heavyweight went the distance, 8 rounds, with Liston because Liston had suffered a broken jaw. One of the worst most painful injuries a boxer can suffer. The result was a split decision loss, which means someone thought Liston won the fight. Liston knocked the man down in the first round. The rematch was an easy KO.

This was early in Liston's career, only his 8th fight and he was still a 24 years old prospect. I don't know what he weighed but it was 8 years before he became champion, it's likely he was still developing as a fighter. This is 'evidence' from someone who claims to be 'analytical and impartial'.

There are no modern 24 year old prospects who would attempt to finish a fight after suffering a broken jaw in the first couple rounds. They'd be pulled for their own protection. This is why comparing different eras is impossible, but we still insist on doing it because it's fun. However we can at least use common sense to guide us and avoid making silly comparisons.

Posted: **01 Jun 2020, 21:18**

thereverend wrote: ↑01 Jun 2020, 20:42 I already mentioned this but I have to mention it again because it's funny. The light heavyweight went the distance, 8 rounds, with Liston because Liston had suffered a broken jaw. One of the worst most painful injuries a boxer can suffer. The result was a split decision loss, which means someone thought Liston won the fight. Liston knocked the man down in the first round. The rematch was an easy KO.

This was early in Liston's career, only his 8th fight and he was still a 24 years old prospect. I don't know what he weighed but it was 8 years before he became champion, it's likely he was still developing as a fighter. This is 'evidence' from someone who claims to be 'analytical and impartial'.

There are no modern 24 year old prospects who would attempt to finish a fight after suffering a broken jaw in the first couple rounds. They'd be pulled for their own protection. This is why comparing different eras is impossible, but we still insist on doing it because it's fun. However we can at least use common sense to guide us and avoid making silly comparisons.

I'm telling you, don't go here. People who really understand boxing ignore this guy and you should to.

They tried to warn me, but I didn't listen and got sucked into a pointless discussion. He doesn't know anything, he just loves to argue, I'm telling you, just move on. Absolutely nobody on the board who knows anything respects his opinion, not ONE of them.

I mean by all means, keep posting, I'd be interested to read your thoughts, but don't bother addressing this imbecile.

I recently put him on ignore, I wish I had done it sooner.

Posted: **02 Jun 2020, 00:26**

jas80s wrote: ↑01 Jun 2020, 21:18
thereverend wrote: ↑01 Jun 2020, 20:42 I already mentioned this but I have to mention it again because it's funny. The light heavyweight went the distance, 8 rounds, with Liston because Liston had suffered a broken jaw. One of the worst most painful injuries a boxer can suffer. The result was a split decision loss, which means someone thought Liston won the fight. Liston knocked the man down in the first round. The rematch was an easy KO.

This was early in Liston's career, only his 8th fight and he was still a 24 years old prospect. I don't know what he weighed but it was 8 years before he became champion, it's likely he was still developing as a fighter. This is 'evidence' from someone who claims to be 'analytical and impartial'.

There are no modern 24 year old prospects who would attempt to finish a fight after suffering a broken jaw in the first couple rounds. They'd be pulled for their own protection. This is why comparing different eras is impossible, but we still insist on doing it because it's fun. However we can at least use common sense to guide us and avoid making silly comparisons.
I'm telling you, don't go here. People who really understand boxing ignore this guy and you should to.

They tried to warn me, but I didn't listen and got sucked into a pointless discussion. He doesn't know anything, he just loves to argue, I'm telling you, just move on. Absolutely nobody on the board who knows anything respects his opinion, not ONE of them.

I mean by all means, keep posting, I'd be interested to read your thoughts, but don't bother addressing this imbecile.

I recently put him on ignore, I wish I had done it sooner.

You are right.

Posted: **02 Jun 2020, 00:28**

jas80s wrote: ↑01 Jun 2020, 21:18

I'm telling you, don't go here. People who really understand boxing ignore this guy and you should to.

They tried to warn me, but I didn't listen and got sucked into a pointless discussion. He doesn't know anything, he just loves to argue, I'm telling you, just move on. Absolutely nobody on the board who knows anything respects his opinion, not ONE of them.

Don't be hard on yourself; it's human nature to try and reason with people. Unfortunately, he's completely irrational.

Posted: **02 Jun 2020, 04:51**

jas80s wrote: ↑01 Jun 2020, 21:18I'm telling you, don't go here. People who really understand boxing ignore this guy and you should to.

They tried to warn me, but I didn't listen and got sucked into a pointless discussion. He doesn't know anything, he just loves to argue, I'm telling you, just move on. Absolutely nobody on the board who knows anything respects his opinion, not ONE of them.

I mean by all means, keep posting, I'd be interested to read your thoughts, but don't bother addressing this imbecile.

I recently put him on ignore, I wish I had done it sooner.

You can’t seriously pretend to take the high road when you blatantly lied, claiming I’d said many things that I clearly hadn’t?

What sort of response do you seriously expect to receive when you stoop so low? I exposed your lies and even detailed them one-by-one.

Posted: **02 Jun 2020, 05:16**

thereverend wrote: ↑01 Jun 2020, 20:42There are no modern 24 year old prospects who would attempt to finish a fight after suffering a broken jaw in the first couple rounds. They'd be pulled for their own protection. This is why comparing different eras is impossible...

Does your claim specifically relate to being the 24 years of age or are you referring to young fighters in general?

To be fair, Sonny Liston could have been 25 or even older as of 1954, since different sources quote his birth year as sometime between 1929 to 1932, but there's no conclusive proof of his age.

Also, Sonny Liston actually claimed his jaw was broken in the fourth round:

Sonny had never met the like of him and just couldn’t get into “killer” mode. “He was hollerin’ and going on and I knocked him down,” Liston recalled. “He got up and I was laughing. He caught me with my mouth open and broke my jaw – least I thought it was broke. If you can’t close your mouth, you know something’s wrong.

“That was in the fourth round. In the sixth he pops me again and the jaw busts again in a different place. It felt funny fighting with my mouth open, but it didn’t bother me none until later on after the fight.”

For the record I can name plenty of young modern-day fighters that broke their jaws early on in their careers (i.e. Arthur Abraham versus Edison Miranda; Victor Ortiz versus Josesito Lopez; Joe Smith Jr. versus Sullivan Barrera; Razor Ruddock versus Mike Tyson; Richard Contreras versus Daniel Quevedo etc.).

Posted: **02 Jun 2020, 05:19**

Cap wrote: ↑01 Jun 2020, 12:46When Liston was active there were at least 10 times as many pro boxers around as there are today. What you have now is the best of a very feeble lot.

Are you sure about that or is it just a guess? Isn't boxing more of a global sport in comparison to Liston's era?

Anyway, some interesting stats another forum poster provided:

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑01 Jun 2020, 17:42

John wrote: ↑15 May 2020, 03:29

Code: Select all

year	COUNT(*)
1866	1
1867	2
1869	7
1870	4
1871	7
1872	41
1873	28
1874	22
1875	27
1876	21
1877	53
1878	41
1879	64
1880	38
1881	46
1882	143
1883	206
1884	391
1885	431
1886	956
1887	843
1888	714
1889	1035
1890	1115
1891	938
1892	1040
1893	1094
1894	1153
1895	1580
1896	2710
1897	3772
1898	3839
1899	5071
1900	6746
1901	4978
1902	7364
1903	6502
1904	6863
1905	7297
1906	7037
1907	6803
1908	8800
1909	12018
1910	15574
1911	14709
1912	14300
1913	12908
1914	11566
1915	11317
1916	13464
1917	12039
1918	8309
1919	15673
1920	21580
1921	24943
1922	30339
1923	31787
1924	32659
1925	30709
1926	33598
1927	38477
1928	43377
1929	45260
1930	49612
1931	48785
1932	43786
1933	40729
1934	37765
1935	40869
1936	33449
1937	30530
1938	27935
1939	25221
1940	19901
1941	17841
1942	16445
1943	16318
1944	18615
1945	20356
1946	34773
1947	34037
1948	29060
1949	26315
1950	22006
1951	18966
1952	17871
1953	16881
1954	16813
1955	15413
1956	14385
1957	14099
1958	14301
1959	13330
1960	12914
1961	12712
1962	11930
1963	10756
1964	10163
1965	9682
1966	10183
1967	10023
1968	10116
1969	10415
1970	11785
1971	11900
1972	10900
1973	10997
1974	10059
1975	9966
1976	10061
1977	11472
1978	11265
1979	12399
1980	12893
1981	14423
1982	15857
1983	15339
1984	13118
1985	12966
1986	11796
1987	12162
1988	12608
1989	13430
1990	13794
1991	13047
1992	13573
1993	14554
1994	13903
1995	14384
1996	14393
1997	15181
1998	14390
1999	15450
2000	15283
2001	16207
2002	17098
2003	17241
2004	18462
2005	19598
2006	20108
2007	20705
2008	20641
2009	20887
2010	21140
2011	22669
2012	22506
2013	23254
2014	22346
2015	25121
2016	26901
2017	26860
2018	27611
2019	30900
2020	7153

Fights per year in BoxRec. Very interesting. Obviously some years incomplete, especially ones way back. Seems like 1920-1940 has most on record, then goes downhill but has increased lately.

Posted: **02 Jun 2020, 06:40**

To be fair, Sonny Liston could have been 25 or even older as of 1954, since different sources quote his birth year as sometime between 1929 to 1932, but there's no conclusive proof of his age.

Also, Sonny Liston actually claimed his jaw was broken in the fourth round:

Sonny had never met the like of him and just couldn’t get into “killer” mode. “He was hollerin’ and going on and I knocked him down,” Liston recalled. “He got up and I was laughing. He caught me with my mouth open and broke my jaw – least I thought it was broke. If you can’t close your mouth, you know something’s wrong.

“That was in the fourth round. In the sixth he pops me again and the jaw busts again in a different place. It felt funny fighting with my mouth open, but it didn’t bother me none until later on after the fight.”

So you're admitting you knew about the first round knockdown, knew Liston was screwing around during the fight laughing at the guy and got his jaw broken (in two places) and still used it as an example to 'prove' your opinion that Liston was weak against small fighters? How devious!

I don't consider 24 years old (most people 'mature' physically by 23) especially young for a prospect, the point isn't whether he was 23 or 24 or 25 but that it was early in his career and Sonny hadn't reached his peak physically and mentally. Didn't have the experience to know to keep his mouth shut and box during a pro fight. I And no you don't need to trot out a list of various successful fighters who started their career at 28 or 29, not interested.

I'd be surprised if the version of Liston that fought in 1970 was older then 40. Most sources list his birthdate as 1930 which is what I used but Liston believed he was born in 1932 which might be the most likely date. The press claimed the older dates because Liston 'looked old' when he fought Ali. The press likes this kind of controversy and considering the life he lived Liston earned every wrinkle.

Glad you're criticizing my posts in person, I hate talking about people in the 3rd person. You trot out a list of names of fighters of various ages, some were prospects some not, over the last 40 years who suffered broken jaws and call it 'the modern era'. 1990-2005 was a different era then 2015-2020. I'm sure we could take the time to go over each individual case and discuss the severity and circumstances. Well, it'd be a waste of my time but probably not yours. We can talk about Donovan Razor Ruddock which you cite as an example of a young prospect who suffered a broken jaw and finished a fight. Without his corner stepping in to protect his career.

The problem is that Razor Ruddock was not a prospect nor was he young for a fighter. He was in the prime of his career at the age of 27, (he was born in a foreign country, Jamaica, if you care to quibble about his age) a veteran of 29 fights, including a fight 3 months earlier with the same man who broke his jaw, the great Mike Tyson. Notice how in boxing a man can be a couple, (or more) years older then another man and yet one can be considered a prospect and the other a tested veteran. This is because quality of opposition and experience (and wear and tear) determine the chronological age of prize fighters.

Ruddock's corner was not interested in stopping the fight to protect him because he was in one of the most important fights of his life. He'd just been whipped by Tyson 3 months earlier! Would a modern fighter, a young prospect, get knocked out by one of the hardest most devastating punchers of all time and come back on 3 months rest to face the same man for a similar beating? If his corner didn't protect him from the fight itself why would they care about the broken jaw? Obviously they were more interested in money and Ruddock's still paying.

I don't want to discourage you from posting your opinions because you're a big fan of boxing and knowledgeable about the sport. There's few enough young fans left willing to discuss boxing and boxing history. You have strong opinions about the sport but you try to disguise this by cherry picking examples and pretending to be unbiased. We're all biased, we all have opinions, admit you care about the things you believe. And for fornicate's sake get to the point you purposely make yourself hard to read in a bid to appear intelligent but for an intelligent reader it's insulting. For a less vocabulary-proficient reader, for instance a punchy dyslexic boxer or a person who's 1st language isn't English, it's confusing and insulting.

Posted: **02 Jun 2020, 06:52**

He would be the only heavyweight around because everyone else would just duck him

Posted: **02 Jun 2020, 07:29**

thereverend wrote: ↑02 Jun 2020, 06:40So you're admitting you knew about the first round knockdown, knew Liston was screwing around during the fight laughing at the guy and got his jaw broken (in two places)...

I've performed quite a lot of research on Sonny Liston. Not just reading, but also watching his bouts.

Sonny Liston broke his jaw in the fourth round (his words, not mine).

thereverend wrote: ↑02 Jun 2020, 06:40... and still used it as an example to 'prove' your opinion that Liston was weak against small fighters? How devious!

I never said that. It simply didn't happen.

thereverend wrote: ↑02 Jun 2020, 06:40Glad you're criticizing my posts in person, I hate talking about people in the 3rd person.

Do you feel that my previous reponse to you was harsh? If so, can you please let me know what I wrote that seemed unfairly critical?

I'll apologise if I wrote something that you feel was fairly offensive, but out of courtesy, you could at least let me know how I offended you.

thereverend wrote: ↑02 Jun 2020, 06:40You trot out a list of names of fighters of various ages, some were prospects some not... 1990-2005 was a different era then 2015-2020.

I listed numerous young fighters that broke their jaws within the last decade or so.

I don’t believe that fighters from the last five years are significantly worse or really any different than men that competed five to ten years prior.

For the record, the IBHoF considers a fighter as qualifying for the "modern era" if their final bout wasn’t before 1989.

thereverend wrote: ↑02 Jun 2020, 06:40I don't want to discourage you from posting your opinions because you're a big fan of boxing and knowledgeable about the sport.

Thank-you.

thereverend wrote: ↑02 Jun 2020, 06:40There's few enough young fans left willing to discuss boxing and boxing history. You have strong opinions about the sport but you try to disguise this by cherry picking examples and pretending to be unbiased.

If this was truly the case, it would be easy for many people to quote and undermine the facts I cite. However, no one does this, because they know I won't make a claim that I can't back-up. Instead they prefer to attack the arguer rather than their argument.

I feel the stats I provided about Sonny Liston's career in this thread have been correct, don't you agree? And if not, can you please detail some of the statistical errors I've made, as this will be appreciated.

Please make a note that many people have often claimed that I've said or believed in things that I have never articulated. This is important, because they cannot pretend to know what I'm thinking if I've never even written it down.

For example: you wrongly claimed that I believed that "Liston was weak against small fighters", but this never happened in this version of reality, did it?

I feel that you actually need to read my posts and digest the facts I’ve conveyed, instead of paying attention to others intentional misrepresentation of them.

thereverend wrote: ↑02 Jun 2020, 06:40We're all biased, we all have opinions, admit you care about the things you believe.

I don't pretend to be objective 100% of the time. However, all the facts I cite don't really care about opinions or personal bias, since reality is what it is.

None of us can jump into a time machine and rewrite the course of history, can we?

thereverend wrote: ↑02 Jun 2020, 06:40And for fornicate's sake get to the point you purposely make yourself hard to read in a bid to appear intelligent but for an intelligent reader it's insulting. For a less vocabulary-proficient reader, for instance a punchy dyslexic boxer or a person who's 1st language isn't English, it's confusing and insulting.

I would like to be more concise.

However, I've become so accustomed to people challenging my claims, it's become a habit of mine to justify all of my opinions up-front by providing a comprehensive set of stats to support my beliefs.

It's just that people think I'm lying when I claim something that is factually-correct that also defies common misconceptions held by the mainstream masses.

Posted: **02 Jun 2020, 14:02**

EO provides all the evidence that he is truly a buffoon.

buf·foon
/bəˈfo͞on/
noun
a ridiculous but amusing person; a clown.

BoxRec

Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?

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