BoxRec

A stark reminder of the existence (and importance) of “intangibles”.

If you wrote out a H2H comparison of the technical, physical and tactical attributes of both, I’m pretty sure Kelly comes out on top in close to all of them. But Ava gets the job done. You could tell he was man with clear intent and just wasn’t to be denied. How can you not love this sport.

coneye wrote: ↑20 Feb 2021, 21:20

brilo33 wrote: ↑20 Feb 2021, 20:44

coneye wrote: ↑20 Feb 2021, 20:36

Yep but i think here lies the problem , they don't learn much , they just get changes a lot from what they already do well ,, I listen to the likes of Ben Davidson ,, he loves to give out his in depth knoledge on boxing to whatever u tube reporter who wants to stick a camera in his face while he gives his best Brad Pitt impresion and educates us all .

Yet when it came to Fury , it took a basic get down to it coach, to advise Fury to do what a lot of experienced coaches knew against Wilder , and that was ,, simply put ,, use your streghth use your size , , keep away from his right hand , push him back and belt him . ... Same with this fight Ava and Kelly ,,, keep it basic , keep the pressure on , and work the body , some guys you can look at and see there big , but weight drained and will struggle has it goes on , and more importanly , quite often you don't even have to know the boxer , you just study his coach and you know EXCATLY what you are gonna get w

yea i get what your saying and think there is a lot a truth in that i just read the first post wrong but when i statred writting the next one i got what you were saying , i think it is also management moving boxers on to quick ones that they think they can market big, yea i get and agree what your saying now

I think management has a lot to do with it , and promoters looking for there stars ,,, which is all fair enough , but i do find it laughable , that a fella can take a kid from 10 years of age , up to top level , then there manager and promoter feel the need to push him to change to a coach who has'nt brought along even 1 ABA champ ....

yea i agree it is about levels though. i like practically coaches like fran sands on you tube , money and pushing a fighter who might not be ready because if they lose there is another one on the cervaerbelt

I guess, Shane McGuigan, Ben Davison and Adam Booth can all be accused of being celebrity coaches, none of them have brought any top amateurs through but then they have had success at top level.
While it's a different job honing and motivating a top level fighter to bringing a kid through it still doesn't happen by magic.
I accept perhaps with Fury, Davidson was a motivator and conditioner, I doubt he taught Tyson much.
Obviously with Booth his big fighters were Haye and Groves and they were both already high level fighters but Booth was given a lot of credit for his dark arts, he is a good tactician and I think he pulled Taylor out at the right time and I liked his calm instructions in the corner. Nevertheless I don't know what goes on in the gym.

I wonder if Booth's style really works for fighters that don't have a lot of stamina and carry pretty big power. Always a lot of excess movement and heavy reliance on big counters to establish command. Kelly had nowhere near enough stamina or power to compete tonight and he was spent far too soon.

Coco wrote: ↑20 Feb 2021, 21:57 I guess, Shane McGuigan, Ben Davison and Adam Booth can all be accused of being celebrity coaches, none of them have brought any top amateurs through but then they have had success at top level.
While it's a different job honing and motivating a top level fighter to bringing a kid through it still doesn't happen by magic.
I accept perhaps with Fury, Davidson was a motivator and conditioner, I doubt he taught Tyson much.
Obviously with Booth his big fighters were Haye and Groves and they were both already high level fighters but Booth was given a lot of credit for his dark arts, he is a good tactician and I think he pulled Taylor out at the right time and I liked his calm instructions in the corner. Nevertheless I don't know what goes on in the gym.

I do really believe , , that once a really good established boxer like Haye and Groves , changes gyms from the guys who taught them to the lets call celebrity trainers , its not hard for said trainer to do well , given that they have promoters willing to buy the wins , pick the right opponent , and build up there investment ,, BUT the fall down always seems to come when its a 50-50 fight against a overseas guy who is hungry and comes to win , Thats when there lack of knoledge springs in . . Look at Josh Kelly , his shoulders seemed bigger , he seemed bigger , any good coach could look at him study his trainers form , and relize he's spending time building up , that takes time , which could be spent doing speed work , sparring ., practicing drills , then on top to keep the weight down whilst getting bigger , you cannot be eating correctly .

Its not rocket science , once a coach notices this , he KNOWS that said fighter is not gonna be strong in the later rnds , there seems to be a mis conception about weight draining , and what it can do to you ,,, most of these guys i don't believe really understand it , they are all supposed to be boxing trainers , but they listen to dietiscns and weight trainers who have neve been punched in the face , and don't know how hard and deep you have to dig sometimes , and to do that you need strenght , both physical and mental , not a half starved body with no stamina

Shane McGuigan took Frampton & Josh Taylor on as they turned pro and did a great job with them to be fair.

has shane really been training frampton since framp turned over? wouldnt that made shane about 19

i thought he started around the time carl won the european, 4-5 years later, though tbf that's hardly like taking on a highly seasoned pro whose already been there , done that, and could get results if my nan trained them

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑20 Feb 2021, 23:09 has shane really been training frampton since framp turned over? wouldnt that made shane about 19

i thought he started around the time carl won the european, 4-5 years later, though tbf that's hardly like taking on a highly seasoned pro whose already been there , done that, and could get results if my nan trained them

In Framptons case , I believe he learnt his boxing from the previous coaches ,, he knew the game backwards what was and was not needed ,,, he benefited from the mcguigans through Barrys keen eye and matchmaking , Shane just run the gym where he kept in shape , but to be fair to Shane i think he probably has more potential than most to become a great trainer , he comes from a boxing familly , i would off liked to see him has an assistant coach for the last few years to someone like Tibbs , learning to get the most important thing a trainer needs ,,, what i call THE EYE ,,, the eye to spot anything and everything and spot it straight away

i just watched the jonny fisher fight

based on that id say accident waiting to happen. though wailing away on a heavy bag he looks better than a lot , lol funny how some dudes just look the part in the gym but not the ring


what was his actual am background btw. it seems a bit vague. there is the stuff about 10 straight first round kos in the ams or something but not much on him

btw.....tasha jonas legit sounds like a castrated dude or dude on helium....i was like 'who is this high voice guy on comms'

Glass Joe wrote: ↑21 Feb 2021, 03:22

I wouldn’t have argued with Kelly taking a fight before this just to get rid of some ring rust but the days of top amateurs taking 25 fights before stepping up are long gone.

James Degale had won the British, lost it on PPV and then won the European all inside of 12 fights.

The promoters will be lead by the manager and trainer and if they say they’re ready then the fights should be made.

Kelly needs to make some changes, really improve his stamina and can come back. David Haye did it better than anyone.

Kelly doesn't have much punching power and comes across as someone who would rather look good and lose than look bad and win.

It's all well and good posing and posturing around, but you better be elite ....and he isn't.

Kelly needs room to get off his Roy Jones impression. Was always going to come unstuck against a serious opponent walking him down. He's about as elusive, and durable, as the 40 yr old Roy Jones. Not even an upset as far as I'm concerned.

Shhhh wrote: ↑21 Feb 2021, 04:37 Does anyone think Kelly kinda quit a bit and went over a bit easily? Weren't devastating shots and was only round 6, early to be that exhausted. Anyway I think its clear Kelly won't get anywhere from a world level level

Looked to me the body shots took a toll eventually like they do. Also, he was losing his footing a lot towards the end.

Maybe the blood loss made him a little faint?

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑21 Feb 2021, 04:47
Maybe the blood loss made him a little faint?

Whether it did or not, I expect it to feature in the excuse shortly.

coneye wrote: ↑20 Feb 2021, 23:33

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑20 Feb 2021, 23:09 has shane really been training frampton since framp turned over? wouldnt that made shane about 19

i thought he started around the time carl won the european, 4-5 years later, though tbf that's hardly like taking on a highly seasoned pro whose already been there , done that, and could get results if my nan trained them

In Framptons case , I believe he learnt his boxing from the previous coaches ,, he knew the game backwards what was and was not needed ,,, he benefited from the mcguigans through Barrys keen eye and matchmaking , Shane just run the gym where he kept in shape , but to be fair to Shane i think he probably has more potential than most to become a great trainer , he comes from a boxing familly , i would off liked to see him has an assistant coach for the last few years to someone like Tibbs , learning to get the most important thing a trainer needs ,,, what i call THE EYE ,,, the eye to spot anything and everything and spot it straight away

Tibbs has been in nearly every McGuigan corner and Frampton never turned over with Shane.

omg no mask!! no social distancing ! they both got the 'vid now


but actually, i would love to see that, im high on conny and think he's way better than most do, but ava is a super seasoned pro who would be one tough ask at this point

Great post

coneye wrote: ↑20 Feb 2021, 19:59 I Think a lot of these sort of fights are lost in the gym and the prep ,,,, More and more you see the fighters being trained and conditioned , by non boxing people who think there boxing people , dietisc'ns , strenghth coaches , ect , and then the celebrity trainer throws in his pearls of wisdom , and they forget the whole basics of boxing is , HAVE A FIGHT ,,, whilst they spensd there time in air conditioned gyms , on running machines , eating lettuce ,, these mexicans , especielly are training for what it is , a hard fight , , and win by being tougher and hitting harder ,,, celebrity trainers think rowing in a machine , eating cucumber sandwhiches and losing weight to be big but weak is the key ..

For me quite a lot , get there through hard work and learning of there ameteur coaches , and then don't develop when they leave them and go with celebrity trainers , full of wisdom and knoledge they read in a book

mickey1975 wrote: ↑21 Feb 2021, 04:56

coneye wrote: ↑20 Feb 2021, 23:33

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑20 Feb 2021, 23:09 has shane really been training frampton since framp turned over? wouldnt that made shane about 19

i thought he started around the time carl won the european, 4-5 years later, though tbf that's hardly like taking on a highly seasoned pro whose already been there , done that, and could get results if my nan trained them

In Framptons case , I believe he learnt his boxing from the previous coaches ,, he knew the game backwards what was and was not needed ,,, he benefited from the mcguigans through Barrys keen eye and matchmaking , Shane just run the gym where he kept in shape , but to be fair to Shane i think he probably has more potential than most to become a great trainer , he comes from a boxing familly , i would off liked to see him has an assistant coach for the last few years to someone like Tibbs , learning to get the most important thing a trainer needs ,,, what i call THE EYE ,,, the eye to spot anything and everything and spot it straight away

Tibbs has been in nearly every McGuigan corner and Frampton never turned over with Shane.

He started with pro career with Gerry Storey , a highly regarded veteran coach. I believe Shane stepped in around the European level ie when the money finally started coming in.

high tower 1 wrote: ↑21 Feb 2021, 06:16

mickey1975 wrote: ↑21 Feb 2021, 04:56

coneye wrote: ↑20 Feb 2021, 23:33

In Framptons case , I believe he learnt his boxing from the previous coaches ,, he knew the game backwards what was and was not needed ,,, he benefited from the mcguigans through Barrys keen eye and matchmaking , Shane just run the gym where he kept in shape , but to be fair to Shane i think he probably has more potential than most to become a great trainer , he comes from a boxing familly , i would off liked to see him has an assistant coach for the last few years to someone like Tibbs , learning to get the most important thing a trainer needs ,,, what i call THE EYE ,,, the eye to spot anything and everything and spot it straight away

Tibbs has been in nearly every McGuigan corner and Frampton never turned over with Shane.

He started with pro career with Gerry Storey , a highly regarded veteran coach. I believe Shane stepped in around the European level ie when the money finally started coming in.

Yeah - apparently it was over a Christmas Dinner where Barry, Sandra, Blain and Shane realised they were only getting 35% of Frampton’s income so they wanted to get close to the 50% mark.

Kelly got beaten up by a tougher man and a solid fighter.

Can't say I am not quite pleased. Adam Booth is a smug bloke.

Another hype train gets derailed. Two fights against good opposition and he has a draw and a loss. Its fine showing off against journeymen, but when they hit back its a different story.

Pleased for Avaneysan