BoxRec

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 14:00

polecateddy wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 13:25

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 11:51

It's true, Bruno was very limited, and never beat a world class fighter in their prime.

I think McCall was world class in the sense he continued for quite a while being mustard for fringe world class types - he really knackered Akinwande's career for example. But really not on the day Bruno beat him. He was basically catatonic bar waking up in the final two rounds.

Which is why I used the words 'in their prime.'

595179 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 14:07 Fury would have had major problems with Bowe, Lewis, Ruddock (before Tyson), Tyson and Holyfield. The Bruno that turned up against Lewis would have been a handful.

It's slightly off topic, but I hate to think what would have happened to AJ, Whyte and Wilder if they had fought the best versions of Tua, Ibeabuchi, Mercer, Witherspoon or even Tubbs.

polecateddy wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 14:19

595179 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 14:07 Fury would have had major problems with Bowe, Lewis, Ruddock (before Tyson), Tyson and Holyfield. The Bruno that turned up against Lewis would have been a handful.

It's slightly off topic, but I hate to think what would have happened to AJ, Whyte and Wilder if they had fought the best versions of Tua, Ibeabuchi, Mercer, Witherspoon or even Tubbs.

I think that’s a fair point. There’s a lack of depth to the heavyweights these days. Behind the scenes there’s a lack of grounding in competitive gyms environments and a lack of trainers with that rich experience. Now even a relatively green but talented fighter like AJ can get to the top by beating an ageing 41 year champion and stay there for a long time because there are no challengers with that gym craft to threaten him. Until of course there was.

595179 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 14:37

polecateddy wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 14:19

595179 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 14:07 Fury would have had major problems with Bowe, Lewis, Ruddock (before Tyson), Tyson and Holyfield. The Bruno that turned up against Lewis would have been a handful.

It's slightly off topic, but I hate to think what would have happened to AJ, Whyte and Wilder if they had fought the best versions of Tua, Ibeabuchi, Mercer, Witherspoon or even Tubbs.

I think that’s a fair point. There’s a lack of depth to the heavyweights these days. Behind the scenes there’s a lack of grounding in competitive gyms environments and a lack of trainers with that rich experience. Now even a relatively green but talented fighter like AJ can get to the top by beating an ageing 41 year champion and stay there for a long time because there are no challengers with that gym craft to threaten him. Until of course there was.

I read/hear all this hype about Wilder and how he's 'the biggest puncher in heavyweight history', yet he took 9 rounds to get rid of Molina and Spilka. How long would those two have lasted against Shavers, Dempsey, Frazier, Louis, Liston, Lewis, Vitali or Wlad? I can honestly say that Herbie Hide would have got rid of those two faster.

I agree, there isn't the level of competition anymore and learning fights are becoming more difficult to find at heavyweight. AJ got his shot without ever going the distance before, if he was trained by Manny Stewart or Angie Dundee that would not have been allowed to happen.

As far as Fury goes, getting knocked down is going to catch up with him eventually and there is no reason what so ever for him to come into the ring with big love handles.

Boxerbeetle wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 14:52

595179 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 14:37

polecateddy wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 14:19

I think that’s a fair point. There’s a lack of depth to the heavyweights these days. Behind the scenes there’s a lack of grounding in competitive gyms environments and a lack of trainers with that rich experience. Now even a relatively green but talented fighter like AJ can get to the top by beating an ageing 41 year champion and stay there for a long time because there are no challengers with that gym craft to threaten him. Until of course there was.

I read/hear all this hype about Wilder and how he's 'the biggest puncher in heavyweight history', yet he took 9 rounds to get rid of Molina and Spilka. How long would those two have lasted against Shavers, Dempsey, Frazier, Louis, Liston, Lewis, Vitali or Wlad? I can honestly say that Herbie Hide would have got rid of those two faster.

I agree, there isn't the level of competition anymore and learning fights are becoming more difficult to find at heavyweight. AJ got his shot without ever going the distance before, if he was trained by Manny Stewart or Angie Dundee that would not have been allowed to happen.

As far as Fury goes, getting knocked down is going to catch up with him eventually and there is no reason what so ever for him to come into the ring with big love handles.

To be fair, I do remember Eddie saying that AJ getting a shot so early on was a legitimate concern for his development as it’s difficult to step back down a level after winning a world title, but the Martin fight was just too perfect to turn down.

595179 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 15:00

Boxerbeetle wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 14:52

595179 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 14:37

I read/hear all this hype about Wilder and how he's 'the biggest puncher in heavyweight history', yet he took 9 rounds to get rid of Molina and Spilka. How long would those two have lasted against Shavers, Dempsey, Frazier, Louis, Liston, Lewis, Vitali or Wlad? I can honestly say that Herbie Hide would have got rid of those two faster.

I agree, there isn't the level of competition anymore and learning fights are becoming more difficult to find at heavyweight. AJ got his shot without ever going the distance before, if he was trained by Manny Stewart or Angie Dundee that would not have been allowed to happen.

As far as Fury goes, getting knocked down is going to catch up with him eventually and there is no reason what so ever for him to come into the ring with big love handles.

To be fair, I do remember Eddie saying that AJ getting a shot so early on was a legitimate concern for his development as it’s difficult to step back down a level after winning a world title, but the Martin fight was just too perfect to turn down.

He was brought along far too fast and the reason for that is money.

JamesPhilips wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 15:57

595179 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 15:00

Boxerbeetle wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 14:52

To be fair, I do remember Eddie saying that AJ getting a shot so early on was a legitimate concern for his development as it’s difficult to step back down a level after winning a world title, but the Martin fight was just too perfect to turn down.

He was brought along far too fast and the reason for that is money.

I don't agree fully. I mean firstly everything in pro boxing is to do with money anyway. But all this 'Joshua's still learning his trade, he's still a novice' BS that amazingly goes on to this day is cringe.

Joshua has been competing at top international level since 2010. He has a boxrec amateur record of 42-3. He won an Olympic hold medal and world silver.

He beat the following:
Zhang
Savon
Camarelle twice
Wallin twice
Kuzmin
Joe Joyce
Dychko
Pfeifer
Frazer Clarke

The top amateur guys if his time.

He has been in England camp for several years.

As a pro, he has had 26 fights. Kod the best of British early on. Sprott. Skelton. Whyte. Also Kevin Johnson. I mean not a murderers row but there were few good heavies around at the time..... it was even drier then than now. Opportunity to fight a soft touch instead of Tyson Fury you'd be mad not to take it. He then defended against solid if not brilliant heavyweight contenders.

At the end of the day its about the bottom line the money for both fighter and promoter. Joshua has been one of the best promoted fighters ever.

Now we know his weaknesses clearly they did an even more brilliant job. I mean anyone suggesting AJ lost to Ruiz and Usyk "because of lack of experience", especially during a weak period of heavyweight depth is silly talk. He's been a pro for almost 12years with top sparring, PEDs and training regimen.

JamesPhilips wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 15:57

595179 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 15:00

Boxerbeetle wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 14:52

To be fair, I do remember Eddie saying that AJ getting a shot so early on was a legitimate concern for his development as it’s difficult to step back down a level after winning a world title, but the Martin fight was just too perfect to turn down.

He was brought along far too fast and the reason for that is money.

I don't agree fully. I mean firstly everything in pro boxing is to do with money anyway. But all this 'Joshua's still learning his trade, he's still a novice' BS that amazingly goes on to this day is cringe.

Joshua has been competing at top international level since 2010. He has a boxrec amateur record of 42-3. He won an Olympic hold medal and world silver.

He beat the following:
Zhang
Savon
Camarelle twice
Wallin twice
Kuzmin
Joe Joyce
Dychko
Pfeifer
Frazer Clarke

The top amateur guys if his time.

He has been in England camp for several years.

As a pro, he has had 26 fights. Kod the best of British early on. Sprott. Skelton. Whyte. Also Kevin Johnson. I mean not a murderers row but there were few good heavies around at the time..... it was even drier then than now. Opportunity to fight a soft touch instead of Tyson Fury you'd be mad not to take it. He then defended against solid if not brilliant heavyweight contenders.

At the end of the day its about the bottom line the money for both fighter and promoter. Joshua has been one of the best promoted fighters ever.

Now we know his weaknesses clearly they did an even more brilliant job. I mean anyone suggesting AJ lost to Ruiz and Usyk "because of lack of experience", especially during a weak period of heavyweight depth is silly talk. He's been a pro for almost 12years with top sparring, PEDs and training regimen.

mickey1975 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 16:54 Part of the promotion was AJ destroyed everything in his way. The casuals lapped it up. They didn't want 80-72 learning fights.

595179 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 16:44

JamesPhilips wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 15:57

595179 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 15:00

He was brought along far too fast and the reason for that is money.

I don't agree fully. I mean firstly everything in pro boxing is to do with money anyway. But all this 'Joshua's still learning his trade, he's still a novice' BS that amazingly goes on to this day is cringe.

Joshua has been competing at top international level since 2010. He has a boxrec amateur record of 42-3. He won an Olympic hold medal and world silver.

He beat the following:
Zhang
Savon
Camarelle twice
Wallin twice
Kuzmin
Joe Joyce
Dychko
Pfeifer
Frazer Clarke

The top amateur guys if his time.

He has been in England camp for several years.

As a pro, he has had 26 fights. Kod the best of British early on. Sprott. Skelton. Whyte. Also Kevin Johnson. I mean not a murderers row but there were few good heavies around at the time..... it was even drier then than now. Opportunity to fight a soft touch instead of Tyson Fury you'd be mad not to take it. He then defended against solid if not brilliant heavyweight contenders.

At the end of the day its about the bottom line the money for both fighter and promoter. Joshua has been one of the best promoted fighters ever.

Now we know his weaknesses clearly they did an even more brilliant job. I mean anyone suggesting AJ lost to Ruiz and Usyk "because of lack of experience", especially during a weak period of heavyweight depth is silly talk. He's been a pro for almost 12years with top sparring, PEDs and training regimen.

In that case, I'm going to hold my hand up and say I'm talking silly.

I agree on the promotion side, I think he's the best promoted British boxer ever. In that respect, Eddie has done an incredible job. In contrast Fury's rematch with Klitschko was only going to be at Manchester Arena.

I'm talking silly, because AJ's management team, advisors and Rob McCracken should have insisted on more learning fights. Lennox had pretty much double the amateur fights and competed in two Olympics yet he was guided perfectly on his way to the Ruddock fight. Kellie Maloney and the rest of LL's team deserve a lot of credit for bringing over the likes of Ossie Ocasio and Dan Murphy to give him rounds. The fights were stinkers, but they were learning experiences. By the time Lennox got to the title shot, he'd fought brawlers, southpaws, movers, spoilers, short, tall, rangy and experienced. That is what should have happened with AJ, so he could learn his trade properly. His advisors should have had him fighting experienced distance men early in his career like Jamal Woods and Zack Page, who gave Fury rounds.

Riddick Bowe had even more amateur experience and he was also guided the right way and so were both of the Klitschkos.

Maybe I am talking silly, but I really don't think AJ has been guided properly. If he had someone like Shelly Finkel guiding him, people like me wouldn't be saying he is lacking the right experience.

595179 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 16:59

mickey1975 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 16:54 Part of the promotion was AJ destroyed everything in his way. The casuals lapped it up. They didn't want 80-72 learning fights.

That's nonsense. Mike Tyson was built as a monster, but he still got learning fights. AJ has not been well advised. It was a bit like when someone told Fury he was ready for John McDermott.

mickey1975 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 17:58

595179 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 16:59

mickey1975 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 16:54 Part of the promotion was AJ destroyed everything in his way. The casuals lapped it up. They didn't want 80-72 learning fights.

That's nonsense. Mike Tyson was built as a monster, but he still got learning fights. AJ has not been well advised. It was a bit like when someone told Fury he was ready for John McDermott.

What? He beat him twice, once inside the distance.

595179 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 18:10

mickey1975 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 17:58

595179 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 16:59

That's nonsense. Mike Tyson was built as a monster, but he still got learning fights. AJ has not been well advised. It was a bit like when someone told Fury he was ready for John McDermott.

What? He beat him twice, once inside the distance.

Behave, he beat him once and was gifted a decision. Surely your not so biased that you can't admit that?

mickey1975 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 18:31

595179 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 18:10

mickey1975 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 17:58
What? He beat him twice, once inside the distance.

Behave, he beat him once and was gifted a decision. Surely your not so biased that you can't admit that?

Read the new Fury special edition of Boxing News for the original report. They had McDermott by one and weren't at all offended at it going the other way. And he was 21 in his 8th fight, daring but great matchmaking.

mickey1975 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 18:31

595179 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 18:10

mickey1975 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 17:58
What? He beat him twice, once inside the distance.

Behave, he beat him once and was gifted a decision. Surely your not so biased that you can't admit that?

Read the new Fury special edition of Boxing News for the original report. They had McDermott by one and weren't at all offended at it going the other way. And he was 21 in his 8th fight, daring but great matchmaking.

ShadrachSimmo wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 18:55

mickey1975 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 18:31

595179 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 18:10

Behave, he beat him once and was gifted a decision. Surely your not so biased that you can't admit that?

Read the new Fury special edition of Boxing News for the original report. They had McDermott by one and weren't at all offended at it going the other way. And he was 21 in his 8th fight, daring but great matchmaking.

But Terry O Connor had him by 6. He had no chance. I had John McDermott winning that fight.

595179 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 19:02

ShadrachSimmo wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 18:55

mickey1975 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 18:31
Read the new Fury special edition of Boxing News for the original report. They had McDermott by one and weren't at all offended at it going the other way. And he was 21 in his 8th fight, daring but great matchmaking.

But Terry O Connor had him by 6. He had no chance. I had John McDermott winning that fight.

You are not alone. I don't see Mickey admitting that his boy Fury lost to a gorger.

mickey1975 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 19:45

595179 wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 19:02

ShadrachSimmo wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 18:55

But Terry O Connor had him by 6. He had no chance. I had John McDermott winning that fight.

You are not alone. I don't see Mickey admitting that his boy Fury lost to a gorger.

John is a traveller.

mickey1975 wrote: ↑12 Jan 2022, 03:17 Its actually you guys who are obsessed with travellers. It's weird.

595179 wrote: ↑12 Jan 2022, 05:42

mickey1975 wrote: ↑12 Jan 2022, 03:17 Its actually you guys who are obsessed with travellers. It's weird.

You've ducked a couple of my questions and I think it's because you don't want to be seen to be posting anything negative about Luke Tyson Fury.

How did you score Fury-McDermott 1?

Do you think Fury-Helenius would sell as many tickets in Cardiff as AJ-Takam?