BoxRec

Cobwebcat wrote: This is our fundamental disagreement ...who deserves to be ranked higher and who is better should never be two different questions. The better fighter always deserves to be ranked higher that, I would argue, is the whole point of a ranking. If not it becomes an arbitrary list of names based on subjectivity.

We won’t agree on this point I think!

How is it based on subjectivity? How about pro accomplishments? I thought that was the primary fuel for traditional boxing rankings?

We all know that the typical gold medalist in the beginning of his pro career is way, way better than the opponents he is boxing... but we can't rank him far beyond them because you can't justify it based on results.

If you go with WHR.. after the next big upset, the rankings get laughed at. However, it is not my site...

Cobwebcat wrote: ↑25 Jan 2020, 20:27
I’m just going to go back to our original disagreement. You will never persuade me that an inferior fighter in some way deserves to be above a superior fighter even if its briefly.

You just have to embrace how combat sports scheduling and matchmaking works. In a sport where top-level competitors mainly fight twice a year.. how much sense does it make to strongly consider the fights that took place in the past YEARS? It'd be like using the farmers almanac to predict the weather instead of software weather models.

When top fighters fought 5+ times a year.. WHR makes more sense.

Cobwebcat wrote: ↑26 Jan 2020, 14:34

JCS wrote: ↑26 Jan 2020, 13:05

You just have to embrace how combat sports scheduling and matchmaking works. In a sport where top-level competitors mainly fight twice a year.. how much sense does it make to strongly consider the fights that took place in the past YEARS? It'd be like using the farmers almanac to predict the weather instead of software weather models.

When top fighters fought 5+ times a year.. WHR makes more sense.

How much sense it makes can be measured. We don't need to guess. The prediction rate is a significant improvement over the current method so the record does matter. If it was an error to take into account previous fights then the prediction percentage would go down not up.

Here you go again... prediction should not be the primary driver for a ranking. I fell into this trap many years ago.. before I realized it just didn't fit. You think rankings should primarily be a future predictor versus what fighters have actually done.

Of course WHR is a better predictor on a fight-by-fight basis.. it smooths out the upsets. Should Tyson have kept his titles when Douglas beat him?

The absolute best fight outcome data available is when A beats B... and neither A, nor B, have had a fight since A beat B. It is the most timely, relevant and direct data available for the two fighters in question.

To publish a standard current ranking that potentially ignores this in any and all cases, quite frankly isn't worth the time to discuss.

Cobwebcat wrote: ↑26 Jan 2020, 18:51

JCS wrote: ↑26 Jan 2020, 18:46 The absolute best fight outcome data available is when A beats B... and neither A, nor B, have had a fight since A beat B. It is the most timely, relevant and direct data available for the two fighters in question.

To publish a standard current ranking that potentially ignores this in any and all cases, quite frankly isn't worth the time to discuss.

.......In your opinion.

I notice common doubts even inside the boxing community, whether an upset winner should be regarded a valid and respected rank winner, as long as he did'nt confirm his upset with a won return bout. So he may be the champ, but he will not be the respected boxer until then.

This won return bout would let him pass his opponent in the WHR ratings too.

computerrank wrote: ↑27 Jan 2020, 09:02 This won return bout would let him pass his opponent in the WHR ratings too.

The return bout does not always happen...

JCS wrote: ↑27 Jan 2020, 12:43

computerrank wrote: ↑27 Jan 2020, 09:02 This won return bout would let him pass his opponent in the WHR ratings too.

The return bout does not always happen...

Yes, and this is part of the problem with respecting upset winners avoiding the return bout.
See them win their return bout and we have no problem with either rating algorithm. Until then set them in a waiting position improved but not in the lead.

Another screwy one I thought I'd check on...

Akhmadaliev... fast rising, undefeated fighter... beats Roman.

WHR has Roman at #4.. and Akhmadaliev at #24!!!

Split decision or not... quite ridiculous and another reason I can't support this system.

----

And another interesting one. Jhunriel Ramonal is ranked below the last TWO boxers he fought and stopped.. neither of those two have had bouts since.

To me it is almost never that a fighter loses a head to head yet still deserves to be ranked higher right after

JCS wrote: ↑01 Feb 2020, 00:16 Another screwy one I thought I'd check on...

Akhmadaliev... fast rising, undefeated fighter... beats Roman.

WHR has Roman at #4.. and Akhmadaliev at #24!!!

Split decision or not... quite ridiculous and another reason I can't support this system.

----

And another interesting one. Jhunriel Ramonal is ranked below the last TWO boxers he fought and stopped.. neither of those two have had bouts since.

- Dunno the WHR, but currently boxrec has Danny #7 and Akhmad #6 that seems about right.

https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/549073

Conversely, if Manny beats up a few more undefeated quality champs like Keith Thurman, Manny might digress all the way into the boxrec top 30. Go figure that.

What happened to your top 15 heavy rankings? Burnout?

JCS wrote: ↑01 Feb 2020, 00:16 Another screwy one I thought I'd check on...

Akhmadaliev... fast rising, undefeated fighter... beats Roman.

WHR has Roman at #4.. and Akhmadaliev at #24!!!

Split decision or not... quite ridiculous and another reason I can't support this system.

----

And another interesting one. Jhunriel Ramonal is ranked below the last TWO boxers he fought and stopped.. neither of those two have had bouts since.

Ramonal would be above his defeated opponents with a bit higher relaxation parameter

- test_update

http://151.boxrec.com/~martin/inc/ratin ... nality=all

Roman's record is too good, and Akhmadaliev has to confirm his performance.

Cobwebcat wrote: ↑03 Feb 2020, 12:07

JCS wrote: ↑01 Feb 2020, 00:16 Another screwy one I thought I'd check on...

Akhmadaliev... fast rising, undefeated fighter... beats Roman.

WHR has Roman at #4.. and Akhmadaliev at #24!!!

Split decision or not... quite ridiculous and another reason I can't support this system.

----

And another interesting one. Jhunriel Ramonal is ranked below the last TWO boxers he fought and stopped.. neither of those two have had bouts since.

Not really another reason. Just the same reason with multiple examples.

I think you made your point quite well even if some might disagree. Im not sure why you keep making it though if the proposed system isn’t worth the time to discuss, as you mentioned earlier.

I cited specific examples.

I guess I can't completely remove myself from the convo... having used the site and been a participator on some level for over 15 years... I find it necessary to chime in on questionable decisions.

Hi there. Here is a really, really special case.

https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/349731

David Morrison is a transgender person. He is now a man. But all his fights as a woman messes up the records of his opponents, as his points suddenly are extreme on their record. He is the toughest opponent for everyone of them.

There must be a quick fix for that

Jens S wrote: ↑04 Feb 2020, 18:35 Hi there. Here is a really, really special case.

https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/349731

David Morrison is a transgender person. He is now a man. But all his fights as a woman messes up the records of his opponents, as his points suddenly are extreme on their record. He is the toughest opponent for everyone of them.

There must be a quick fix for that

I don't see the issue for the ratings. Results are only regarded, if opponents have same sex.

If I look at Melissa Hernandez:
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/335647

When did her career peak? In 2011 when she fought David Morrison. There she had 1783 points. That makes her the best fighter ever among women, if you look at which fighter had the best peak. It is the same with all other fighters David Morrison fought.

Jens S wrote: ↑05 Feb 2020, 15:48 If I look at Melissa Hernandez:
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/335647

When did her career peak? In 2011 when she fought David Morrison. There she had 1783 points. That makes her the best fighter ever among women, if you look at which fighter had the best peak. It is the same with all other fighters David Morrison fought.

Now I see funny. I will go into it.

computerrank wrote: ↑05 Feb 2020, 18:11

Jens S wrote: ↑05 Feb 2020, 15:48 If I look at Melissa Hernandez:
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/335647

When did her career peak? In 2011 when she fought David Morrison. There she had 1783 points. That makes her the best fighter ever among women, if you look at which fighter had the best peak. It is the same with all other fighters David Morrison fought.

Now I see funny. I will go into it.

Bouts with mixed-sex opponents are not regarded by the ratings program AND not updated currently. So old rating values survived in the bouts. I will change this

Computerrank, super

Jens S wrote: ↑06 Feb 2020, 06:23 Computerrank, super

I fixed the bug and built a new release, which is in the pipeline to be launched.

computerrank wrote: ↑06 Feb 2020, 13:59

Jens S wrote: ↑06 Feb 2020, 06:23 Computerrank, super

I fixed the bug and built a new release, which is in the pipeline to be launched.

The fixed release is launched now

computerrank wrote: ↑05 Feb 2020, 18:11

Jens S wrote: ↑05 Feb 2020, 15:48 If I look at Melissa Hernandez:
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/335647

When did her career peak? In 2011 when she fought David Morrison. There she had 1783 points. That makes her the best fighter ever among women, if you look at which fighter had the best peak. It is the same with all other fighters David Morrison fought.

Now I see funny. I will go into it.

Wasn’t he Davrene J Morrison at the time?

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑13 Feb 2020, 05:46

computerrank wrote: ↑05 Feb 2020, 18:11
Now I see funny. I will go into it.

Wasn’t he Davrene J Morrison at the time?

I don't know either ...

Seems that WHR has it

Fury
Wilder
Joshua
Usyk
Povetkin???
Ruiz

Cobwebcat wrote: ↑24 Feb 2020, 18:46 So

1 Joshua
2 Furynable

What does WHR think?

Any thoughts on if you are keeping existing or switching Computerrank?

Boxrec will switch. But the ratings interface will be changed technically. Maybe allowing multiple versions.

Cobwebcat wrote: ↑25 Feb 2020, 06:45

JCS wrote: ↑24 Feb 2020, 22:51 Seems that WHR has it

Fury
Wilder
Joshua
Usyk
Povetkin???
Ruiz

I could be wrong but I think that’s a snapshot in time ie it won’t have updated with subsequent fights.

To have Fury at #2 P4P.. it had better be after this weekend's fights....