BoxRec

Ambling Alp II wrote:Is this a joke?

The Ali of 1967 had much more stamina then the Ali of late 1970 early. So the 1970 version would not wear down the 1967 version. The 1970 version would be lucky to win 3 rounds.
Have you ever played a sport? You don't just take off 3 and half years and for no particular reason get better. The longer you are of the more time it would take to get rid of the rust.

We can argue all we want about Ali and Frazier but ultimately it come down to this: Frazier only won once and Ali won twice with the third fight a stoppage...

That is not in dispute.

p4p1 wrote:

Il Duce wrote:From Jimmy Cannon,

Thad Spencer defeated Ernie Terrell far more impressively than Cassius Clay did.

Cassius couldn't put Ernie down. Though he won easily over the 6' 6" elongated
telephone pole, Clay was forced to go 15-Rounds, and was never close to
dropping him.

On the other hand, Thad put Ernie down with the first punch he landed, and had
him hurt several times during the bout. In Round 12, Thad had Ernie dangling
and ready to go. If there had been a Round 13, Ernie would have never finished
the Round.

For those who say Cassius Clay is the best, I say the you're blind. It's easy to
look great when you fight mediocrity.

If only Ali had of beaten SEVEN IBHOF fighters then he would have a real legacy.

FIXED

The Great John L wrote:

Il Duce wrote:C'mon,

In February 1964 Sonny was a 'financial wreck' at the time, and Cassius wasn't all that good in that fight.

The 'smell' after that fight floated in the air all over the World........

That bad smell was actually topped by the 'stink' in Lewiston, Maine 'fiasco' in May 1965.

Floyd had a 'severely damaged back' entering that bout in Las Vegas, and he had been
bombed to the canvas several times in sparring sessions with 'King' Jimmy Fletcher
in November 1965.

Still, it took a Referee to halt that bout with Floyd still on his feet.

Yea, so impressive..........

Oh, I forgot this is Boxrec. If you don't like the result, just makeup excuses.

OWNED- Do they still say that or is it passe? True, though.

yancey wrote:

Il Duce wrote:C'mon,

In February 1964 Sonny was a 'financial wreck' at the time, and Cassius wasn't all that good in that fight.

The 'smell' after that fight floated in the air all over the World........

That bad smell was actually topped by the 'stink' in Lewiston, Maine 'fiasco' in May 1965.

Floyd had a 'severely damaged back' entering that bout in Las Vegas, and he had been
bombed to the canvas several times in sparring sessions with 'King' Jimmy Fletcher
in November 1965.

Floyd's back was so bad, he couldn't fight for 6-Months prior to the November 22, 1965
bout with Cassius, and then required nearly 10-Months rest before re-entering the Ring
back in October 1966 with Henry Cooper.

Still, it took a Referee to halt that bout with Floyd still on his feet.

Yea, so impressive..........

Once again, Duce is right on the money here.

Both Liston fights stunk, with the mega-stench from the Lewiston fight still sending people up in Maine to the hospital to this day.

In fact, the D.O.D. looked into canning the stench to be used as a weapon of war.

Patterson had terrible back problems in the first Ali fight. Trainer Al Silvani lifted Floyd up and down between rounds trying to alleviate the problem.

Not saying Floyd beats Ali, but the truth is the truth.

The Liston fights stunk because Liston could never hang with a fighter as good as Muhammad Ali. Ali was faster, stronger, younger, and had more heart. Other than that Liston had a lot of things going for him.

Il Duce wrote:Gilbert Rogin of Sports Illustrated,,,

"You know the difference between the 'two' Sonny Liston bouts with Cassius and the
Floyd Patterson bout with Cassius,......................One of the Three bouts was real."

"Sending Floyd Patterson into that bout with a 'bad back' was like entering a Buick
with a rod-knock into the Indianapolis 500."

InformationNo results found for "Sending Floyd Patterson into that bout with a 'bad back' was like entering a Buick with a rod-knock into the Indianapolis 500."[/quote

https://www.google.com/search?q="Sendin ... the+Indian

Il Duce wrote:Cassius Clay wasn't going anywhere near Amos 'Big Train' Lincoln in 1966, especially in California.

The LSG Group still owned Cassius until October 1966 when their contract expired, and they weren't
taking any uneccessary risks.

They even turned down a $300,000 'Winner-Take-All-Bout' at the Oakland Coliseum.

Oakland Tribune.

'Big Train Squashes Cassius Into Clay"

"Cassius Says, He Only Wants To Fight In Europe, Where The Tough Heavyweights Are"

A search turn up your own post:

Boxing Record Archive • View topic - Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?
boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=168422&start=175‎
Jul 30, 2013 - In fact, the D.O.D. looked into canning the stench to be used as a weapon of war. ... Did you get the feeling that nearly every Cassius Clay bout back .... Amos 'Big Train' Lincoln...........in Los Angeles, California or the ..... "Cassius Says, He Only Wants To Fight In Europe, Where The Tough Heavyweights Are" .

https://www.google.com/#q=Big+Train+Squ ... +The+Tough+




'

Il Duce wrote:Meaning,

The word 'Duce' is derived from the Latin Word meaning, 'Duke'.

It has nothing to do with Benito Mussolini, who by the way got the Italian Railway System
to function properly during his reign.

Let's not get Political here,

Do you truly believe that Muhammad Ali's avoidance to join the U.S. Military was because of
his stance against the Vietnam War.

Nobody was going to make him pick up an M-16 and run through the Rice Fields in the
Mekong River Delta.

For God's Sake, Entertainer Joey Heatherton protested the war, yet went over to Vietnam
many times to entertain the Troops with the U.S.O. Group to show support for the 'MEN'.

Muhammad Ali cared about Muhammad Ali........

He didn't want to lend his credibility which was enormous with the black and the young to that quagmire and get one more man or woman to be the "last person to die for a mistake."

What part of that don't you understand?

loaded_gloves wrote:

Il Duce wrote:Meaning,

The word 'Duce' is derived from the Latin Word meaning, 'Duke'.

It has nothing to do with Benito Mussolini, who by the way got the Italian Railway System
to function properly during his reign.

Let's not get Political here,

Do you truly believe that Muhammad Ali's avoidance to join the U.S. Military was because of
his stance against the Vietnam War.

Nobody was going to make him pick up an M-16 and run through the Rice Fields in the
Mekong River Delta.

For God's Sake, Entertainer Joey Heatherton protested the war, yet went over to Vietnam
many times to entertain the Troops with the U.S.O. Group to show support for the 'MEN'.

Muhammad Ali cared about Muhammad Ali........

Yeah, and 'Fuhrer' means 'leader' and if some poster opted to post under that name it would give all of his pathological hatred and loose associations an equally creepy air.

Just look over your conspiracy theories in this thread. You read like a paranoid schizophrenic.

And christ, I don't think Joe Frazier's own children harbour the deep seated resentment of Muhammad Ali that 'Yancey' does.

I know, Ali knew, we all knew Ali wouldn't have to shoot guns in Nam. That's not the point and never was. He stood up and refused to support a war on yellow people by white people who were treating black people with the same disdain. He took a stand knowing he risked ruining his reputation and losing his livelihood.

In time, America and the world came around to his thinking in regards to the Vietnam war. He showed incredible character and heroics in his return to boxing. He has shown the same qualities in battling his long illness.

And yet all that only leads to men like Mussolini here, sorry, Il Duce, to belittle the great man from his keyboard, and seriously try and suggest he was a coward and ducked Amos Lincoln and the other journeymen he's listed in this pathetic infantile thread.

Why don't you write an article on the real truth behind Muhammad Ali? Affix your face and full name to it and shop it around to the various boxing websites? Let's see you stand up for what you believe in!

Yeah, Marvis was constantly trying to get his dad and Muhammad to bury the hatchet and often acted as an intermediary at the request of Muhammad.

Il Duce wrote:Loaded-Gloves,

Thank You For the History Lesson,

Seems to me, when Cassius Clay wanted to get his 'calculated' career started, he knew where to go....

William Faversham Jr. and the Louisville Sponsoring Group {all white men}.

He even called Willie Faversham Jr. 'My Daddy Warbucks' after he bought Cassius a new 'red' Cadillac.

He gets all the 'good stuff' during his build-up, and then later cries 'Wolf'.

The 'only' reason Muhammad Ali took a stand, is because he was 'lawyered up' with yes people
who told him that they could get him off.

When that failed, it was because he was 'Black', and that the white man wanted to take away his
means of earning a living.

Yes, the whole world was against Muhammad Ali............

Yes, he was a Great Boxer and a Great Entertainer/Showman......but as a Political Intellectual......

He's no William F. Buckley Jr.

He didn't know he was black. He knew he was black when his mom showed him the Life Magazine article on what happens to blacks who step out of line"

Il Duce wrote:

Giancarlo wrote:

loaded_gloves wrote:
Il Duce, you're a strange chap with creepy views. I'm starting to see why you adopted the nickname of a man like Mussolini.

You can see why Nancy has a crush on him.

Yes, Cassius was doing everything because of the way his people were treated,,,,,

Of course, the 'Nut-Huggers' forget the way how cruel he treated little defenseless Sonji Roi.

Oh, I guess she wasn't human........

Sonji Roi,,,,,,,,"As a husband, Cassius was still in preliminaries."

He slapped her to his shame. Mike Tyson said the hardest punch he ever threw was at Robin Givens. And there is a boxer who has been prominently mentioned in this thread who was arrested for domestic battery and it wasn't Muhammad Ali.

Honestly can we really hold a one off slap against someone? I'm sure we have all been pushed to the limit by woman at times and it isn't hard to imagine just snapping for a split second and slapping one.

loaded_gloves wrote:Now our resident loons are citing Ali's promiscuity as a reason to hate Ali.

They should read Smokin' Joe's book. He couldn't help himself loving as many women as possible.

But it's okay when you're guy does it, but when the guy you just don't like does it, well, then it's a stick to beat him with.

Ali's burger joint flopped. How did Joe's business ventures go?

The desperate grasping at straws by a pair of grown men in this thread is just embarrassing.

We don't like sports men now because of their bedroom antics? Has it seriously come to this?

As these guys perfect men? No. Have their major biographies omitted their infidelity? No. So what exactly is the problem? What on earth has created such bitterness in these two distant observers?

Yeah, Ali wasn't the only fighter to bring his mistress to Manilla but some folks refuse to let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

And Ali's promiscuity is mentioned in his authorized biography. He said he regrets it and is embarrassed by it. But he's not the first alpha male to be showered with pussy...There's actually a biological explanation for it.

yancey wrote:

scallum wrote:Rumble in the Jungle was the biggest fight of the career of Ali

Yeah, right.




btw, there was clearly something wrong with Foreman in that fight.

Very sluggish and not very coordinated, almost as if he was in a drugged state.

Curious that Ali ran like hell from any talk of a rematch, wasn't it?

I just watched that fight last night and the Foreman-Norton fight again. in succession. Foreman did that same stupid pawing when he wasn't throwing except the GOAT was hitting him in his noggin while he was doing it. It was a brilliant tactical fight by a fighter past his prime against a beast. Every time I watch it and I have must watched it thirty or so times I learn something new. Two new things I learned. Ali trades with him in the middle of the ring constantly beating him to the punch and then walks him or lets Foreman walk him to the ropes where he shoots his wad hitting him in the body and arms. Also in the fifth round the announcer announces Ali " seems to be tiring" and just as he says it Ali's starts to jab the bejesus out of George. He was clearly sandbagging him. And then in the seventh or eighth round the announcer figure out what was going on and says Ali lies on the ropes" he's actually looking quite comfortable out there" or as the great Old Mongoose put it


"Archie Moore had a more sanguine view. He pointed out that the champion did not really have Ali on the ropes. Ali had placed himself there, which was quite different, and thus he was in the tradition of the great "rope fighters" like Young Jack Thompson, a welterweight champion of the '20s who used the ropes with the skill of a spider on the strands of his web.

Moore cleared his throat. He is extravagant not only polysyllabically but in the use of metaphor, and he had one to offer. "Ali swayed so far back on the ropes that it was like he was sitting in an old convertible Cadillac. The '54 model," he added, being very accurate about such things. "Now, George tried to enter from the side doors. But they were shut. So George began to bang at them, hitting at Ali's arms that had the elbows protecting his hips, on up to the gloves protecting the lower mandible. On occasion George struck Ali some tremendous blows on the upper cranium, causing Ali no little discomfiture. But Ali weathered that, and he cunningly convinced George that he couldn't punch and other such nonsensical things, until George began to behave like he actually believed it, until this tremendous puncher lost his power from punching at that Cadillac's doors and turned from an atomic force into a firecracker. "In short," said the great ex-fighter, "as they say in the idiom of Brooklyn, he blew his cool."


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

yancey wrote:

scallum wrote:Rumble in the Jungle was the biggest fight of the career of Ali

Yeah, right.




btw, there was clearly something wrong with Foreman in that fight.

Very sluggish and not very coordinated, almost as if he was in a drugged state.

Curious that Ali ran like hell from any talk of a rematch, wasn't it?

I just watched that fight last night and the Foreman-Norton fight again. in succession. Foreman did that same stupid pawing when he wasn't throwing except the GOAT was hitting him in his noggin while he was doing it. It was a brilliant tactical fight by a fighter past his prime against a beast. Every time I watch it and I have must watched it thirty or so times I learn something new. Two new things I learned. Ali trades with him in the middle of the ring constantly beating him to the punch and then walks him or lets Foreman walk him to the ropes where he shoots his wad hitting him in the body and arms. Also in the fifth round the announcer announces Ali " seems to be tiring" and just as he says it Ali's starts to jab the bejesus out of George. He was clearly sandbagging him. And then in the seventh or eighth round the announcer figure out what was going on and says Ali lies on the ropes" he's actually looking quite comfortable out there" or as the great Old Mongoose put it


"Archie Moore had a more sanguine view. He pointed out that the champion did not really have Ali on the ropes. Ali had placed himself there, which was quite different, and thus he was in the tradition of the great "rope fighters" like Young Jack Thompson, a welterweight champion of the '20s who used the ropes with the skill of a spider on the strands of his web.

Moore cleared his throat. He is extravagant not only polysyllabically but in the use of metaphor, and he had one to offer. "Ali swayed so far back on the ropes that it was like he was sitting in an old convertible Cadillac. The '54 model," he added, being very accurate about such things. "Now, George tried to enter from the side doors. But they were shut. So George began to bang at them, hitting at Ali's arms that had the elbows protecting his hips, on up to the gloves protecting the lower mandible. On occasion George struck Ali some tremendous blows on the upper cranium, causing Ali no little discomfiture. But Ali weathered that, and he cunningly convinced George that he couldn't punch and other such nonsensical things, until George began to behave like he actually believed it, until this tremendous puncher lost his power from punching at that Cadillac's doors and turned from an atomic force into a firecracker. "In short," said the great ex-fighter, "as they say in the idiom of Brooklyn, he blew his cool."


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Il Duce wrote:Muhammad Ali, following his victory over George Foreman,


"Get me Chuck Wepner, then I'll really show you something."

"Better yet, how about Rudi Lubbers II."

A google search of your quote takes us back to your quote:

Boxing Record Archive • View topic - Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?
boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=168422&start=300‎
Aug 6, 2013 - He has still not reached his prime when he fought Cooper; it was just his 19th pro fight. He was still at the stage where ..... Aug 07, 2013 4:30 pm. Muhammad Ali, following his victory over George Foreman, "Get me Chuck Wepner, then I'll really show you something." "Better yet, how about Rudi Lubbers II." ...

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Get+ ... 22&spell=1

Il Duce wrote:Larry Holmes had a better reign,

And when Larry came back, he did it '10x' better than Muhammad Ali.

Muhammad Ali had 'flash and pizazz' like no one else, but I was never overly impressed
with his 'First Reign' as all out-comes of his title defenses were predictable to say the least.

What Challenger was near his equal or could press Muhammad Ali from November 1965 thru March 1967.

Nobody was very good.

Ali beat seven IBHOf fighters, six if you exclude the Old Mongoose who was well past it. How many IBHOF fighters did Larry beat?
I think he actually lost to more IBHOF fighters than he won against if you exclude the GOAT who was well past it and sick

Ambling Alp II wrote:Ali can't control Liston's supposed lack of motivation. He beat him the first time, and was more than willing to take him on again.
Ali can't control Patterson's back problems. If Patterson had back problems entering the fight, he certainly could have postponed it. btw-his back looked fine in the early rounds and Ali was toying with him.

I agree that you can always find excuses for Ali's opponents, and people often do. You can also find excuses for for the opponents of Joe Louis, Joe Frazier, Larry Holmes or anyone else. But of course you have no interest in doing that.

His back was fine going into the fight. He aggravated it by hitting at air or more precisely a looping left look that missed in the fifth round. I guess it was Ali's fault; for being so fast.

That One- A vessel of truth in a sea of lies, half truths, and innuendoes.

I am more than happy to discuss, debate, argue the facts I cited or the inferences I drew from said facts.

Hey Il Duce, do you want people living with roaches? Just curious.

Looks like Ali had an opinion on this.

Il Duce wrote:

ThatOne wrote:That One- A vessel of truth in a sea of lies, half truths, and innuendoes.

I am more than happy to discuss, debate, argue the facts I cited or the inferences I drew from said facts.

Fabrication of Truth

Cassius Clay was voted the 'Worst Neighbor in Miami' in 1965.

You really are a simpleton.

Giancarlo wrote:

Il Duce wrote:

ThatOne wrote:That One- A vessel of truth in a sea of lies, half truths, and innuendoes.

I am more than happy to discuss, debate, argue the facts I cited or the inferences I drew from said facts.

Fabrication of Truth

Cassius Clay was voted the 'Worst Neighbor in Miami' in 1965.

You really are a simpleton.

That was a bit harsh. Maybe the Duce is a frustrated comedian or comedienne.

I just wonder if he can find himself in complete agreement with Ali on the issue of Roaches.

It's finding the common ground that begins the process of healing.

BoxBuzz wrote:I just wonder if he can find himself in complete agreement with Ali on the issue of Roaches.

It's finding the common ground that begins the process of healing.

This has already been addressed. Duce criticized Muhammad Ali for promoting roach spray! because it might be misused and cause death while defending Jack Dempsey promoting a magic elixir with arsenic which can cause death when used as intended.

Hold on...that's not right...dcon was NOT a SPRAY......it was safe! It was a HOTEL style approach. And effectively killed only roaches...unless someone ate a carton of them. Then they could cause some trouble to the human condition.

Il Duce wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:I just wonder if he can find himself in complete agreement with Ali on the issue of Roaches.

It's finding the common ground that begins the process of healing.

Hey there, hold on.

I'm all for a Roach Free Planet.......

D-Con also came in a 'Fogger', which was the #1 Killer in Co-Op City.

Second was the 'I Am The Greatest' Record Album,

People in the Bronx were seen jumping out of 7th-Floor High-Rise Windows after
hearing Side 1.

Didn't your uncle write all the lyrics for that one?