BoxRec

Posted: **03 Dec 2018, 14:58**

He has to be a big hitter. He weighs over 250.That automatically makes him a big puncher. That is is why weight is so crucial.

Posted: **03 Dec 2018, 15:01**

oogiebe wrote: ↑03 Dec 2018, 13:07
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑03 Dec 2018, 12:12 Yes, I am sure that is how it would play out. Wilder would have no problem against a guy who throws about 3X as many punches as Fury.
The taller guy with the longer reach and the more than a 40 pound weight advantage could only get a draw. More compelling evidence how important the size "advantage" is.
Wilder is closer in weight to Marciano than he is to Fury.
Shouldn't Wilder move down to cruiserweight like all the other under 215 fighters in history would have done?
They simply can't compete with these talented big fighters.
There are always exceptions.

In real life, the exception is when the much bigger guy actually dominates. How many times do we have to see this movie and realize that a certain point extra weight doesn't help?

Posted: **03 Dec 2018, 17:11**

Fury does have power. If he didn't Wilder would have never respected him and tear through him like butter. That didn't happen. Fury's one-two's and body shots made Wilder back the hell up and stay at a distance. After Fury got up in the 12th he practically had Wilder out on his feet himself.

And I'm sorry but no man with a 68" reach is doing jack with a guy 6'7" and with an 83" reach. Wilder would be 25 pounds heavier than Marciano, and that's the lightest Wilder has been since 2008.

Posted: **03 Dec 2018, 17:28**

Fury doesn't really plant his feet when he punches either, he's a mover not a slugger.

Posted: **03 Dec 2018, 17:51**

Bigger guys dominating is hardly an exception in recent years
Anthony Joshua is considered the best at present
before him Wadimir Klitschko
before him Lennox Lewis

How do bigger guys dominating a period of over 21 years (1997-present) equate with your theory that size is not important?

Posted: **04 Dec 2018, 05:32**

I bet if you asked Wilder, AJ or Fury how a 13 stone man would do against them they would laugh in your face. Fury was asked recently how Usyk would do in the HW division, his answer was he is too small to be champ. Usyk is a lot bigger than Marciano ever was. Marciano had the wrong skillset to compete fairly with these big guys, going toe to toe with them would be suicide.

Posted: **04 Dec 2018, 11:36**

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2018, 17:51 Bigger guys dominating is hardly an exception in recent years
Anthony Joshua is considered the best at present
before him Wadimir Klitschko
before him Lennox Lewis

How do bigger guys dominating a period of over 21 years (1997-present) equate with your theory that size is not important?

Guess this can be answered this in many ways:

Almost all the guys are bigger. Not surprising that the best guys would be big.
Not everyone considers Joshua the best. He has not faced Fury and Wilder.
Lewis didn't dominate a well past it Evander Holyfield. He didn't even dominate Mavrovic.

Posted: **04 Dec 2018, 11:39**

Controversial wrote: ↑04 Dec 2018, 05:32 I bet if you asked Wilder, AJ or Fury how a 13 stone man would do against them they would laugh in your face. Fury was asked recently how Usyk would do in the HW division, his answer was he is too small to be champ. Usyk is a lot bigger than Marciano ever was. Marciano had the wrong skillset to compete fairly with these big guys, going toe to toe with them would be suicide.

They would laugh in my face? Is that supposed to be damning evidence?
Fury also said he would be Wilder.
Maybe, just maybe Marciano is better than Usyk. Just a thought.

What skills did Dempsey have that Marciano didn't?

Posted: **04 Dec 2018, 12:41**

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Dec 2018, 11:36
Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑03 Dec 2018, 17:51 Bigger guys dominating is hardly an exception in recent years
Anthony Joshua is considered the best at present
before him Wadimir Klitschko
before him Lennox Lewis

How do bigger guys dominating a period of over 21 years (1997-present) equate with your theory that size is not important?
Guess this can be answered this in many ways:

Almost all the guys are big. Not surprising that the best guys would be big. Yet the one mid-sized guy out there is not getting beat by the far bigger guys. I keep asking you how to explain Wilder and you always duck the question.

Not everyone considers Joshua the best. He has not faced Fury and Wilder.
Wladimir wasn't the best until the better fighters retired or were past it.
You can certainly argue that Lewis wasn't best of his era. He certainly didn't "dominate it" it. He couldn't dominate a well past it Evander Holyfield. He didn't even dominate Mavrovic.

Posted: **04 Dec 2018, 12:43**

Lewis didn't dominate Holyfield?

I've heard it all.

Posted: **04 Dec 2018, 12:48**

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑04 Dec 2018, 12:43 Lewis didn't dominate Holyfield?

I've heard it all.

I personally thought Lewis was more dominant in the first fight which was scored a draw.

Posted: **04 Dec 2018, 14:59**

Like many people, I thought Holyfield should have got the decision in the 2nd fight. Neither were good fights. Holyfield was clearly past it by then.

Posted: **04 Dec 2018, 16:07**

I think Lewis clearly dominated the division from 1997 to 2003. You could question whether he dominated the early 1990s but by the late 1990s he was scoring the best wins out of anyone in the division with fewer losses. Most people had the second Holyfield fight for Lewis by 8-4 or 7-5. As far as controversial decisions go its pretty far down the list.

You could probably make a better case for Ken Norton winning all his fights with Ali than you could for Holyfield winning the rematch. There are plenty of people who feel Norton won the second and third fights.

Posted: **04 Dec 2018, 16:46**

Lewis should have got the decision in the first fight. However, that was simply because Holyfield did next to nothing. Lewis didn't "dominate him".
Lewis himself didn't almost nothing but paw with his jab in the 2nd fight. Holyfield did fight in spurts this time.
Of course people argue the Ali-Norton fight. It's Ali. People are obsessed with him. Almost everyone of decision victories (as well as some of his stoppage wins) are questioned by someone. Not relevant anyway.

Lewis dominated from 1997-2003? He got knocked out by Rahman during this time. He struggled with Mavrovic. He wasn't impressive against a well past Holyfield.
That isn't "dominating".

Mavrovic (an almost complete unknown) weighed about the same as Wilder.

Posted: **04 Dec 2018, 16:49**

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Dec 2018, 16:46 Lewis should have got the decision in the first fight. However, that was simply because Holyfield did next to nothing. Lewis didn't "dominate him".
Lewis himself didn't almost nothing but paw with his jab in the 2nd fight. Holyfield did fight in spurts this time.
Of course people argue the Ali-Norton fight. It's Ali. People are obsessed with him. Almost everyone of decision victories (as well as some of his stoppage wins) are questioned by someone. Not relevant anyway.

Lewis dominated from 1997-2003? He got knocked out by Rahman during this time. He struggled with Mavrovic. He wasn't impressive against a well past Holyfield.
That isn't "dominating".

Mavrovic (an almost complete unknown) weighed about the same as Wilder.

You are truly a Rambling Alp

Posted: **04 Dec 2018, 16:51**

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Dec 2018, 16:46
Mavrovic (an almost complete unknown) weighed about the same as Wilder.

Which is still about 2 stone heavier than Marciano

Posted: **04 Dec 2018, 16:54**

Wasn't Zev also 6'3"?

Didn't Zev also have a muscular wasting disease?

So in reality, before the disease took hold, he was like 220-225 pounds. So he was significantly taller and heavier than Marciano.

Posted: **04 Dec 2018, 17:09**

Lewis dominated in the sense that he was considered the best heavyweight in the world, beat everyone he faced, and avenged his only loss in decisive fashion. He also beat better competition than anyone else in these years. In prior eras no heavyweight his size came even close to replicating what he did.

He beat Mavrovic handily, whether he was impressive in doing so is hardly relevant, its not a controversial win by any means.

Posted: **04 Dec 2018, 17:28**

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2018, 17:09
He beat Mavrovic handily, whether he was impressive in doing so is hardly relevant, its not a controversial win by any means.

Not as controversial as Marciano's wins over Lowry (177lbs) and LaStarza (187lbs)

Posted: **04 Dec 2018, 17:39**

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Dec 2018, 11:39
Controversial wrote: ↑04 Dec 2018, 05:32 I bet if you asked Wilder, AJ or Fury how a 13 stone man would do against them they would laugh in your face. Fury was asked recently how Usyk would do in the HW division, his answer was he is too small to be champ. Usyk is a lot bigger than Marciano ever was. Marciano had the wrong skillset to compete fairly with these big guys, going toe to toe with them would be suicide.
They would laugh in my face? Is that supposed to be damning evidence?
Fury also said he would be Wilder.
Maybe, just maybe Marciano is better than Usyk. Just a thought.

The laughing remark wasn't aimed at anyone, it was a general comment.

Usyk has an incredible amateur pedigree and undisputed CW champ after 15 fights. I'd say he was the more talented of the two and far more equipped physically for the current HW scene than Marciano would be. If Usyk was around in the 1950s he would've likely been HW champ, or if not one of the best contenders of that era.

Posted: **05 Dec 2018, 11:34**

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑04 Dec 2018, 17:09 Lewis dominated in the sense that he was considered the best heavyweight in the world, beat everyone he faced, and avenged his only loss in decisive fashion. He also beat better competition than anyone else in these years. In prior eras no heavyweight his size came even close to replicating what he did.

He beat Mavrovic handily, whether he was impressive in doing so is hardly relevant, its not a controversial win by any means.

He was the best fight of those years. He didn't dominate. There is a difference.
I didn't say the Mavrovic fight was a controversial decision. I just pointed out that Lewis had a lot of trouble against a no name that was much smaller than him.

Posted: **05 Dec 2018, 11:37**

Controversial wrote: ↑04 Dec 2018, 16:51
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Dec 2018, 16:46
Mavrovic (an almost complete unknown) weighed about the same as Wilder.
Which is still about 2 stone heavier than Marciano

And Wilder was about 2 stones smaller than Fury and most of the other guys that he beat leading up to it.
Mavrovic was about two stones smaller than Lewis.

It's not about the weight, it's about what you can do.

Posted: **05 Dec 2018, 11:49**

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑05 Dec 2018, 11:37
Controversial wrote: ↑04 Dec 2018, 16:51
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Dec 2018, 16:46
Mavrovic (an almost complete unknown) weighed about the same as Wilder.
Which is still about 2 stone heavier than Marciano
And Wilder was about 2 stones smaller than Fury and most of the other guys that he beat leading up to it.
Mavrovic was about two stones smaller than Lewis.

It's not about the weight, it's about what you can do.

Of course but Wilder isn't 5'9"/5"10" with a 67"/68" reach. When all physical attributes plus speed, power and weight are against you it makes it a very difficult fight.

If sheer size and weight made no difference do you think Fury would have been as successful against Wilder, i.e. Fury was the same size and weight as Marciano? Of course not, his size helped him fight the fight he did, without it he would've been splattered in quick time.

Posted: **05 Dec 2018, 16:10**

Controversial wrote: ↑04 Dec 2018, 17:28 Not as controversial as Marciano's wins over Lowry (177lbs) and LaStarza (187lbs)

- Must you splatter your insipid inanity in perpetuity? Rock sent them off with emphatic rematches just like Joe Louis before him.

Tubby half blind Sam Langford gave up 9" in height to not only beat Harry Wills in their first two encounters as I recall offhand, but knocked him cold in in one of them.

Rocky may not be Sam Langford, but Wilder is much further removed from a Wills. Rocky gave up similar size to Carmine Vingo when they were prospects and the result was near fatal.

Nobody can know without going to Valhalla how these fights go, but TBA short notice carrion scavengers like wilder won't be there.

Get over it. Kimbo Slice vs Too Tall Jones is more your forte. Go get'em Tiger!

Posted: **05 Dec 2018, 16:39**

Controversial wrote: ↑05 Dec 2018, 11:49
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑05 Dec 2018, 11:37
Controversial wrote: ↑04 Dec 2018, 16:51

Which is still about 2 stone heavier than Marciano
And Wilder was about 2 stones smaller than Fury and most of the other guys that he beat leading up to it.
Mavrovic was about two stones smaller than Lewis.

It's not about the weight, it's about what you can do.
Of course but Wilder isn't 5'9"/5"10" with a 67"/68" reach. When all physical attributes plus speed, power and weight are against you it makes it a very difficult fight.

If sheer size and weight made no difference do you think Fury would have been as successful against Wilder, i.e. Fury was the same size and weight as Marciano? Of course not, his size helped him fight the fight he did, without it he would've been splattered in quick time.

If Fury was the same size and Marciano, but still had the exact same ability as he does now? Same speed, power, defense, chin, punching accuracy etc. ? I would say he would have fought to a draw against Wilder.

Speed power, and weight are against Marciano?
I will take these one at a time:
Speed? huh? How is Wilder faster than Marciano? I don't see how you come to this conclusion. Marciano was clearly faster.
Power? Well, we have one fight to base Wilder's power on. He didn't stop his man. So you should not automatically assume that Wilder has a power advantage.
Weight? Yes. And that by itself means nothing.

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