Clear case of a fighter doing 'better' than expected. Folks give points for that. Judges don't (usually).margaret thatcher wrote: ↑09 May 2021, 16:59 nah, i think you're just still drinking the same bjs koolaid you were jugging before
mannix even rewatched it an said he was generous to bill scoring it live btw
Could've been. I just like fans fighting for their guy. "He lost, but he lost great!"coghaugen11 wrote: ↑09 May 2021, 17:15 I had Canelo five or six rounds up comfortably and didn’t even yet go through the gears.
I'm right my man, BJS won 2, maybe 3 rounds top. He will never be able to say he was up on points or even level prior to getting his face destroyedMightyWarrior wrote: ↑09 May 2021, 17:14 Okay you and Canelo’s three amigos gave him two rounds
Me and the fight night score gave him three or four rounds.
so who’s right ?
Well I’ll be the judge of that and you just lost on points
1 - Yes he probably has made adjustments, but also at the same time his level of opposition, in terms of proven world level fighters, has dipped. Yes Billy Joe Saunders is officially a two weight world champion, but how many world class fighters has he faced - David Lemieux? That limited puncher is still his signature win, then we are probably going down a paricularly green CEJ...... Callum Smith? The guy shouldn't have beaten John Ryder? Rocky Fielding? - all the PROVEN (over a sustained period) world class fighters he has faced, even in recent times, he has struggled with. Kovalev, Lara, GGG, Cotto, Jacobs and FMJ - those are his best opponents and he had struggles against all of them. Really in terms of PROVEN the current crop of 168 fighters aren't really on the level of those mentioned above. Andrade would be a really interesting fight actually to see the improvements.ironbeard wrote: ↑09 May 2021, 02:33
I disagree on a number of your assertions:
1. FMJ was closer to prime than Canelo when they fought. Canelo was 22, nowhere near where he is now, and he fought at a catch weight. FMJ was 36. His prime was around 30 v ODLH.
2. The Lara fight was very close, not clear. Lara did precious little beyond running for his life. It could have gone either way. I had it for Canelo or a draw. I think that Jacobs had a better argument for the win, based on actual scoring blows, but that was also a fight that could go either way.
3. I think that FMJ v Cotto was closer than Canelo v Cotto. Both very competitive though.
4. FMJ and Pac had fights that could have gone against them. In the case of Pac, he also had close losses.
5. Canelo is in the midst of a historic run of fights that is comparable to any of your top three.
I agree that Canelo is not quite on their level at the moment, but if he unifies 168, and continues this run for two to four more years, I think he qualifies to be in the conversation with all of them. He is currently on that next rung and reaching.
1. Your assertion was that Canelo was closer to prime than FMJ when they fought. That is demonstrably false.stujones wrote: ↑09 May 2021, 17:561 - Yes he probably has made adjustments, but also at the same time his level of opposition, in terms of proven world level fighters, has dipped. Yes Billy Joe Saunders is officially a two weight world champion, but how many world class fighters has he faced - David Lemieux? That limited puncher is still his signature win, then we are probably going down a paricularly green CEJ...... Callum Smith? The guy shouldn't have beaten John Ryder? Rocky Fielding? - all the PROVEN (over a sustained period) world class fighters he has faced, even in recent times, he has struggled with. Kovalev, Lara, GGG, Cotto, Jacobs and FMJ - those are his best opponents and he had struggles against all of them. Really in terms of PROVEN the current crop of 168 fighters aren't really on the level of those mentioned above. Andrade would be a really interesting fight actually to see the improvements.ironbeard wrote: ↑09 May 2021, 02:33
I disagree on a number of your assertions:
1. FMJ was closer to prime than Canelo when they fought. Canelo was 22, nowhere near where he is now, and he fought at a catch weight. FMJ was 36. His prime was around 30 v ODLH.
2. The Lara fight was very close, not clear. Lara did precious little beyond running for his life. It could have gone either way. I had it for Canelo or a draw. I think that Jacobs had a better argument for the win, based on actual scoring blows, but that was also a fight that could go either way.
3. I think that FMJ v Cotto was closer than Canelo v Cotto. Both very competitive though.
4. FMJ and Pac had fights that could have gone against them. In the case of Pac, he also had close losses.
5. Canelo is in the midst of a historic run of fights that is comparable to any of your top three.
I agree that Canelo is not quite on their level at the moment, but if he unifies 168, and continues this run for two to four more years, I think he qualifies to be in the conversation with all of them. He is currently on that next rung and reaching.
2 - I'll disagree on Lara, but fair enough - all about the scoring.
3 - I'll also disagree here, but no major qualms with the decision. Yeah Mayweather lost some rounds against Cotto - but never thought it was in doubt.
4 - I agree on Pacquiao, he had some fights in which he shouldn't have won, he also had some fights that he CLEARLY lost - but.... these weren't against the Billy Joe Saunders of this world, they weren't even against the Lara's of this world - these were against the likes of JMM - true all time great fighters in their own right.
5 - This is where I disagree the most - yes it will be lovely if he can win all four belts - there is something special in doing that - but its Rocky Fielding (not a proper world champion), BJS (Martin Murray his best win at 168), Callum Smith (should have lost to John Ryder and beat a crocked George Groves in his only world class win), and Caleb Plant - actually the most proven of the lot, but still hardly even in the top 30 P4P list. Its hardly Barrera, JMM, Morales, Magarito, Hatton, Cotto.... its more in line with David Diaz, Joshua Clottey, Oscar Larios, Algeri, Broner, Brandon Rios..... Likewise its hardly Castillo, Corrales, Hatton, DLH, Mosley, JMM, Cotto, Guerrero..... again more like Berto, Maidana, Ortiz. Now RJJ - yes it is comparible, RJJ opponents were an issue - but the manner of RJJ BEST WINS vs Canelo's BEST WINS are not comparible really. RJJ hardly lost a round against the likes of Hopkins, Toney, McCallum, Virgil Hill - I'm not comparing the later two to the likes of GGG, Lara, Jacobs, Cotto and Kovolev at the time of the fight - but for me I think they are the three outstanding performers of the last 30 years, for different reasons and you can make a case for any one of the three being #1. Roy because he made sold opporators look silly for 10 years, Mayweather cos of longevity and dominance against a stronger resume than RJJ and Pac because his resume of fighters is even better than FLoyd's even if he didn't always win. I really cannot see how Canelo's run compares to Floyd and Pac especially - he's beating belt holders not proven world level fighters. If he unified the middleweight title now - now we would be talking - GGG might still have something in the tank and CHarlo and ANdrade have been belt holders long enough now and have looked impressive - far more impressive than Smith and Saunders.
picked along the way.
out of Victor Ortiz. FMJ would not go near Austin Trout, leave alone Angulo, Lara, and Kirkland. FMJ did not get close to anyone with the speed and skills of Khan in his prime, nor a Danny Jacobs. Sure, Sergei Kovalev was past it but he still had more skills and power than the vast majority of the picks FMJ feasted on for nearly 10 years. Callum Smith is definitely at minimum on the Ortiz level, and BJS was 30-0 last night, with far more skill than Guerrero or Maidana ever displayed in the ring.FMJ did not get close to anyone with the speed and skills of Khan in his prime, nor a Danny Jacobsironbeard wrote: ↑09 May 2021, 23:30
5. This is complete delusion on your part.
When did FMJ EVER face anything close to as dangerous an opponent as 3G. Answer; NEVER. Berto? Guerrero? Ortiz? Maidana? Shot SSM? Undersized JMM? Come on man! Look in the mirror, grab your collar tightly and briskly slap yourself out of your delusional state.
Kermit Contron was more dangerous than the people FMJ was fighting. Canelo had less trouble with the trigger less version of SSM than FMJ did. Josesito Lopez beat theout of Victor Ortiz. FMJ would not go near Austin Trout, leave alone Angulo, Lara, and Kirkland. FMJ did not get close to anyone with the speed and skills of Khan in his prime, nor a Danny Jacobs. Sure, Sergei Kovalev was past it but he still had more skills and power than the vast majority of the
picks FMJ feasted on for nearly 10 years. Callum Smith is definitely at minimum on the Ortiz level, and BJS was 30-0 last night, with far more skill than Guerrero or Maidana ever displayed in the ring.
Pac is a different story.
I apologize for missing this post. I was just replying to your direct replies.stujones wrote: ↑10 May 2021, 05:52 Iron beard,
Clearly some of my posts has been misread by you.
I did not mean that Canelo struggled with Saunders in my point 4.... He didn't, my point was yes Pacquiao lost to JMM and Morales clearly (IMO) within in his dominant run..... but these were JMM and Morales - two other all time greats. He is allowed to lose to them and still be an ATG himself. Canelo at the moment isn't beating the quality of opposition to be in the ATG. He is in the process of cleaning out a particularly poor Super Middleweight division.
Yes, I agree FMJ could have fought the likes of Paul Williams etc - yes..... Not going to argue against that. Hence why I have not mentioned Carlos Baldomir despite being the #1 in the division..... but I still maintain that yes whilst I can see the view that Mayweather might not have a GGG victory in his resume - GGG aside, Canelo doesn't have a DLH, Castillo, JMM, Hatton, Corrales level of fighter on his - as I said GGG aside..... I think the fundamental difference we share on Floyd is that clearly you think Floyd shouldn't have some zero's and I don't. For me the only time I thought "not sure whose got this" for Floyd was against DLH. I just think some will always place asterix's by Floyd either as after timers or don't look at the big picture..... JMM was way out of his weight category when he fought Floyd according to some..... but same people had no complaints when he fought Pacquiao at the same weight....... Hatton had no right to be at WW, yet prior to the event most of the experts were saying "Hatton is the bigger man naturally, the move up will suit him better than Floyd" - yet when Floyd beat him it was "Hatton is no Welterweight", and Floyd was? Shane Mosley was past it against Floyd, no one was saying that when he put on the second best performance of his career the fight before. Corrales was weight drained. Don't need to mention Castillo cos he "lost" that one. Alvarez was too green, despite being a UNIFIED world champion for 2 years and made 7 defences - doesn't matter that Floyd was in his mid 30s and at a weight class which was way above his best years. My point on the Floyd / Canelo debate wasn't on their resume but on their actual fight. No matter what Hopkins achieved after, and he achieved lots - I could never rank him above RJJ because of the manner of their first fight - and yes Hopkins certainly improved a lot after that fight - but RJJ beat him too decisively for that to ever be over turned. You might think "well what about Duran and Tommy Hearns then" - well that was different because Duran was NOT the same fighter at Welter as he was at Lightweight, cards were already stacked too much in Hearns' favour to really impact on Duran's ATG standing - I honestly don't think you can say Alvarez as a Unified champion fighting a guy in his mid 30 and out of his weight class had the cards too stacked in Floyd's favour too impact on his greatness standing. There will always be that "ah but he got schooled by Floyd" asterix there, no matter what he achieves since as it was with Hopkins.
My other issue was this "unprecedent" run he is on..... yes he is looking a million dollars and I have him as a clear current P4P number 1 - but to move into the higher echelons of the ATG bracket, he has got to look good in beating a top 20 P4P fighter himself, at the moment he hasn't done that. Floyd did (Mosley, Hatton, Corrales, JMM, Pacquiao, Alvarez - dominant victories against P4P top 20 opposition at the time of the fight), RJJ did, (Toney) Pacquiao did (don't need to list them) - and yes even those other ATG who are not quite up with the three - Calzaghe, Hopkins, DLH, Tito, Mosley, Barrera, Morales, JMM - also did - so I'd have Canelo behind these by some way at the moment, so I think the description of him being called a once in a generation fighter is a bit much as it stands and I'm not sure what (given his opposition) he can really do about it..... Now if he was to take on Andrade / Charlo etc back at Middleweight, that would be better than his current run. At the moment every time he has fought someone in the top 20 P4P bracket he's either lost, got gifts or had real true struggles - possibly depending on your view on the Cotto fight. Kov, GGG, Mayweather, Jacobs, Lara - 6 best opponents and for me each one a struggle - Cotto one being more open to debate on whether it was a struggle or not. At the moment he is beating belt holders in a poor division - this is not after timing. Saunders' best win at 168 is Martin Murray, and Callum Smith should have lost vs Ryder.
picking corporate brands who have been given every advantage over long stretches of their careers. However, I do recognize the greatness of both. Zab Judah is very comparable to Khan, although more of a mirror image. Khan is faster and always has had more heart, not to mention that he made Judah his bitch when they fought. Khan has a lesser chin than Judah but managed to compensate for it except against the very highest level comp. Khan also defeated Maidana in a classic war; the same Maidana who gave FMJ fits twice (I think the first W was debatable).stujones wrote: ↑10 May 2021, 06:14FMJ did not get close to anyone with the speed and skills of Khan in his prime, nor a Danny Jacobsironbeard wrote: ↑09 May 2021, 23:30
5. This is complete delusion on your part.
When did FMJ EVER face anything close to as dangerous an opponent as 3G. Answer; NEVER. Berto? Guerrero? Ortiz? Maidana? Shot SSM? Undersized JMM? Come on man! Look in the mirror, grab your collar tightly and briskly slap yourself out of your delusional state.
Kermit Contron was more dangerous than the people FMJ was fighting. Canelo had less trouble with the trigger less version of SSM than FMJ did. Josesito Lopez beat the
Pac is a different story.
.... Speed and skills..... umm...... Zab Judah?
Callum Smith - yeah - minumum of Ortiz's level yes..... I agree - Callum Smith is among Canelo's best CLEAR wins..... Ortiz' isn't among Floyds.
Guerrero - ah yes he was completely rubbish that FOUR WEIGHT world champion! - Rubbish he was. Amir Khan at Middleweight posed more of a threat!
A three years younger at a better weight Miguel Cotto - yeah he was completely rubbish also..... yeah Callum Smith was better than him also, or and Amir Khan and BJS - off course he was.
Ricky Hatton - yeah in the top 10 in the world P4P at the time.... but yeah Rubbish also - that Angulo much harder fight.
Shane Mosley - ah yeah Floyd fought him two years younger at a better weight for Mosley - but yes he was clearly better against Canelo. Good win for Canelo, cherry picked for Floyd - that says it all.
I'm not going to even mention Arturo Gatti - cos yes he was completely outboxed and yes he was limited, but still a multi weight world champion, but yeah so was BJS - so yes I will give you that one.
JMM as I said - outsized vs Mayweather but it was fine for him to smash Pacquiao at the same weight and get robbed vs Bradley there. No mention of him being out of his weight class then!
Not saying Floyd's career didn't have its share of frustration - it did..... but it still aint a bad list. The bit I always laugh about with Floyd's career is there were big calls for Floyd to face the speed and skill set of Zab Judah - then Zab Judah lost, then there was an outcry (justifiable) that he proceeded with the Judah fight..... then next fight he fights the guy who beats Judah and there is STILL an outcry! If he would have fought Paul Williams believe you me, there would have been "ah but Quintana beat him" or even "but Baldomir is the #1 in the division" - he cannot / couldn't win.
Ultimately though Floyd's 3 stand out wins of his career - Corrales, DLH and ultimately Canelo. So when you say Floyd never faced someone of the skills set of Amir Khan - yes he did Saul Canelo Alvarez and he dominated him. Yes Floyd didn't beat Austin Trout - but he beat the guy who beat Austin Trout decisively - so didn't need to fight him.
If Lopez fought Ryan Garcia at the end of the year (Garcia's current issues' aside) would people be given Lopez credit for fighting Garcia or would they say "oh Lopez should wait 2 or 3 years and wait till Garcia hits his prime before fighting him" - seems like that what people wanted to do when Floyd faced a world champion for 2 years, unified champion and #1 in the division. Fight Angulo instead of him. As I said, he couldn't win - He should have fought Amir Khan over Alvarez - think I've heard it all now.
pick for FMJ’s skill set; definitely not the threat that Paul Williams, Margarito and others were when FMJ could have faced them.
got the real star of the show on the left there
The sexxciii bâstard!!