Ratings - please read before commenting - Archived

[computerrank]

How come the fighter pages no longer show the "before/after" rating for each fight?

The new method instantly corrects all after bout ratings of the opponents after inserting, updating or deleting a bout. There is no pre bout rating any longer.

[Jens S]

I think the new rating system really has some flaws. Let's take some top heavyweights:

Tyson Fury:
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/479205

In 2018 he drew with Deontay Wilder. Fury went from 1043 to 1137 gaining 94 points for a draw with a man with 883.2 points before the match.
In february 2020 he beats Deontay Wilder on KO7. He goes from 1109 to 1095 for beating a guy with 757.9 points.
And then he won 111 points for beating Nuri Seferi back in 2018.

Deontay Wilder
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/468841

Beating Malik Scott, who had 45 points in 2014, gave him 53 points. In 2015 he beat Bermaine Stiverne, who had 29 points. That gave 66 points. In 2017 he beat Stiverne again. This time Stiverne had 7 points. Wilder gained 140 points. This is the biggest gain in Wilders career. The gains in points are clearly detached from the opponents. It seems random at best.


Anthony Joshua:
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/659461

He loses points for losing to Andy Ruiz. That's fair. Then he wins a rematch and loses even more points??? Really?

Oleksandr Usyk:
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/659772
He beats respectable Danie Venter in 2014 and goes from 96 to 116 points gaining 20. In 2015 he goes from 209 to 266 gaining 57 points by beating no hoper Pedro Julio Rodriguez, who had way less points than Venter. By that really made Usyks results that much better?

But let's take som crazy examples:
Bernard Hopkins:
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/1414
In his debut he loses to a debutant. Hopkins gets 8.099 points. The winner gets 0.351.

Ubaldo Ilagor:
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/897805
He won his first three fights on KO1. Even though his last opponent was clearly the best, he moves down in the rankings.

Sonny Conto:
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/861334
He fought a total bum in his first fight, but the five wins after that has just moved him down the rankings.

Roman Huerta:
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/857475
The same pattern.

Jared Anderson:
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/861332
WTF???

Amron Sands:
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/806568
Absurd

Anthony Velazquez:
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/821335
Double that???

The ratings have been great in the past and been improving over the years. But this is really not good. When fighters are moved down in the rankings for their best wins, and when beating nobodies is rewarded more than solid wins, then the credibility goes away.

About taking later results into account. Well, that means, that the present ratings are wrong, because future will change the present. Because every new result will change the past ratings. If John Ruiz face Anthony Joshua a third time and wins, the ratings for the first two fight will be changed, right?

And besides that fighters have good periods and bad periods. If you look at football/soccer players. We all know, that they have good seasons and bad seasons. Some develop late. Take Virgil van Dijk. At age 28 he is generally considered the best defender in the world, and has been that for a couple of years. If you played well against him in 2014, it shouldn't be considered "better", because he later developed greatly. Back then, he wasn't even good enough for the dutch national team. And the reverse. Some players play well, when they are young, but may have their career hampered by injuries, and they will never reach their potential.

The same in boxing. Some boxers get the right trainer one day, and they improve. Others gets a financial situation, that makes it possible for them to train full time. Some get over an addiction to drugs. That changes their career, but it doesn't improve the results of their opponents.

[margaret thatcher]

Agree, new system is weird, gives very odd picture of where guys actually stand/stood at the time. Reaching into the future makes it lose a lot of value for being able to see how things stood back at that time. And then some stuff just seems randomly weird

Like, Fury was 110 points higher right after beating Seferi than he was right after beating Wlad, can anyone say that Fury spending 2.5 years out and then beating an old cruiser raised his stock bigtime compared to when he beat Wlad? How is any version of Seferi causing that much of a jump over beating any version of Wlad? And Stiverne 2 getting 140 points for Wilder, far more than the first fight?

Dillian Whyte going down for beating Rivas is another weird one. And Josh going down for Ruiz 2.

So you have guys getting huge boosts for beating Seferi and a shot Stiverne, but then dropping for Rivas and Ruiz wins. Does any of that seem to match how we actually rate fighters?

[JCS]

There's no point in trying to analyze rating movements through a fighter's career... in this system, it'll make almost zero sense. It just doesn't work like the past systems in use here. There's more than just the outcome of the fight in question to consider... but what that opponent's opponents have recently done, etc.

The only thing you can potentially derive from past ratings is when a fighter was perceived to be in their prime.

[computerrank]

@Jens, you may not interpret the after bout rating of the last bout as the pre bout rating of the regarded bout.

The correct interpretation is, the WHR rating after a bout is the best rating estimation at time of the bout including all results before and after this bout with decreasing weight and increasing time distance.

So you can not say, a boxer won or lost an amount of points due to a bout result by simply comparing his after bout rating at time of his last bout with the after bout rating of the bout regarded. The after bout rating after the last bout IS NOT the pre bout rating at time for the bout regarded. There is no different rating before the bout at bout time. The after bout rating is the best estimation at bout time. This after bout rating is the the pre bout rating too.

In order to get a measure for the rating impact of a bout result, you can make the calculation without this bout and compare the resulting ratings. So you can test, whether a bout result enhanced a rating or lowered it.

e.g. without Klitschko win -320, without Seferi win +-0, without first Wilder SD -500, without second Wilder TKO -740

[jujigatame]

I know I am late to this discussion but this recent change seems profoundly wrongheaded.

Predictive rate should be neither the sole nor primary criteria unless BoxRec's goal is to use it for gambling/handicapping purposes, which as far as I am aware, it is not. This change seems to completely misunderstand what people desire from a boxing ranking system, and perhaps most importantly, has completely abandoned transparency and comprehensibility.

This reminds me of a phenomenon I've encountered frequently in my career as a software engineer. Someone taking a professional project and turning it into an academic exercise with no user input and no thought towards practicality, thus creating something they can claim is "objectively" better but which, in reality, nobody finds useful.

I truly hope this change gets rolled back (or at least both versions maintained side-by-side) much like what was done the last time BoxRec decided predictive rate was the only thing that mattered and produced ratings nobody liked. Or the time when they started incorporating "home advantage" to disastrous results. If not, I may have to start using Lennox's ratings instead, even though I have never particularly cared for them.

[margaret thatcher]

Ya, that's the thing for me at least, it loses a lot of value as what was a great source to see where guys stood at a certain point in their career. It was way way way easier to understand before and far more closely matched how people actually evaluate fighters following a specific result

[Jens S]

@Jens, you may not interpret the after bout rating of the last bout as the pre bout rating of the regarded bout.

The correct interpretation is, the WHR rating after a bout is the best rating estimation at time of the bout including all results before and after this bout with decreasing weight and increasing time distance.

So you can not say, a boxer won or lost an amount of points due to a bout result by simply comparing his after bout rating at time of his last bout with the after bout rating of the bout regarded. The after bout rating after the last bout IS NOT the pre bout rating at time for the bout regarded. There is no different rating before the bout at bout time. The after bout rating is the best estimation at bout time. This after bout rating is the the pre bout rating too.

In order to get a measure for the rating impact of a bout result, you can make the calculation without this bout and compare the resulting ratings. So you can test, whether a bout result enhanced a rating or lowered it.

e.g. without Klitschko win -320, without Seferi win +-0, without first Wilder SD -500, without second Wilder TKO -740

So you think that a fighter winning his best win on KO1 should move him down in the rankings? Look at the examples I wrote!!!

Let's take them again:
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/897805
Why is he moving down in ranking after winning against the best opponent of his career on KO1?

Jared Anderson:
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/861332
He bets a guy on KO1 in his last fight. He has more than 40 times the points of his second best opponent. What happens? He moves down in points and the rankings??? Which result should he have to move up in the rankings?

[computerrank]

@Jens, you may not interpret the after bout rating of the last bout as the pre bout rating of the regarded bout.

The correct interpretation is, the WHR rating after a bout is the best rating estimation at time of the bout including all results before and after this bout with decreasing weight and increasing time distance.

So you can not say, a boxer won or lost an amount of points due to a bout result by simply comparing his after bout rating at time of his last bout with the after bout rating of the bout regarded. The after bout rating after the last bout IS NOT the pre bout rating at time for the bout regarded. There is no different rating before the bout at bout time. The after bout rating is the best estimation at bout time. This after bout rating is the the pre bout rating too.

In order to get a measure for the rating impact of a bout result, you can make the calculation without this bout and compare the resulting ratings. So you can test, whether a bout result enhanced a rating or lowered it.

e.g. without Klitschko win -320, without Seferi win +-0, without first Wilder SD -500, without second Wilder TKO -740

So you think that a fighter winning his best win on KO1 should move him down in the rankings? Look at the examples I wrote!!!

Let's take them again:
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/897805
Why is he moving down in ranking after winning against the best opponent of his career on KO1?

Jared Anderson:
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/861332
He bets a guy on KO1 in his last fight. He has more than 40 times the points of his second best opponent. What happens? He moves down in points and the rankings??? Which result should he have to move up in the rankings?

You go on misinterpreting the rating values. The rating didn't go down after the the KO1 win. It went up by 0.4 points, when the win was entered. I just NC-ed the win on the test system, and Ilagor's rating was only 0.02.



The system shows the most probable rating values at bout times, reagrding all bouts. All latest ratings tend to be a bit lower than the pnes before, because the last rating has a higher uncertainty than those backed by bouts before and after. So the system says Ilagor's rating was already high at time of his minor wins, regarding the last win. And the rating is conservatively estimated a bit lower regarding the future uncertainty.

[DazBoxingFan]

As per usual computer rank ignores other users criticism, input and responses...

[computerrank]

As per usual computer rank ignores other users criticism, input and responses...

DazBoxingFan - this is a warning. You are trolling through this thread without substantial contributions or fact based questions. I will not accept that any longer.

[Jens S]

How should anybody be able to see, how the system works? Where can anyone see, that all the ratings of a boxer is changed after his fights? You changed the system totally, but told nobody. But this means, that all fighters ratings drops after their last fight. That is what people actually SEE. You say, that in reality, they got a lot of points, but where can the users SEE it? Nowhere.

Look at Artur Beterbiev: https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/646981
How can the users see, that his last win actually gave him a lot of points, not cost him a lot of points? Please show me where. And show me where it says how many?

Take Callum Smith:
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/631178

How can anybody see, that his points hasn't decreased the last two fights? How many points extra did he get after his 23rd fight after his 27th fight? Where does it show?

Lennox Lewis:
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/1853
When Lennox Lewis got knocked out by Hasim Rahman, he was knocked out. Rahman was the better fighter. But not on Boxrec. After that fight Lewis should be ranked higher, because...? Because he won the rematch and other fights? NO, NO, NO! He lost to Rahman that night, and should be ranked low until the rematch. He wasn't "probably" better. He lost. That is not a guess, it is a result.

Look at Drake Thadzi:
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/907

He beat James Toney, and after the fight, his ratings were extremely low compared to Toneys. NO! He beat Toney. Toney wasn't "probably" better. He LOST. End of story. It doesn't matter, which results he had later in his career. Toney lost. And the career of Thadzi didn't peak after his win against no hoper Darrell Flint. It did that after the Toney fight.


Nobody can understand the ratings now. The users used to get useful information. They could see, how a fighters points rose or fell after a fight. Now they get nothing. A lot of points are added, but nobody can see why or when.

[DazBoxingFan]

As per usual computer rank ignores other users criticism, input and responses...

DazBoxingFan - this is a warning. You are trolling through this thread without substantial contributions or fact based questions. I will not accept that any longer.

Lol how am I trolling about? I and many other people have said about how the system is wrong and listed examples and you just bypass it

[computerrank]

How should anybody be able to see, how the system works? Where can anyone see, that all the ratings of a boxer is changed after his fights? You changed the system totally, but told nobody. But this means, that all fighters ratings drops after their last fight. That is what people actually SEE. You say, that in reality, they got a lot of points, but where can the users SEE it? Nowhere.

Look at Artur Beterbiev: https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/646981
How can the users see, that his last win actually gave him a lot of points, not cost him a lot of points? Please show me where. And show me where it says how many?

Take Callum Smith:
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/631178

How can anybody see, that his points hasn't decreased the last two fights? How many points extra did he get after his 23rd fight after his 27th fight? Where does it show?

Lennox Lewis:
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/1853
When Lennox Lewis got knocked out by Hasim Rahman, he was knocked out. Rahman was the better fighter. But not on Boxrec. After that fight Lewis should be ranked higher, because...? Because he won the rematch and other fights? NO, NO, NO! He lost to Rahman that night, and should be ranked low until the rematch. He wasn't "probably" better. He lost. That is not a guess, it is a result.

Look at Drake Thadzi:
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/907

He beat James Toney, and after the fight, his ratings were extremely low compared to Toneys. NO! He beat Toney. Toney wasn't "probably" better. He LOST. End of story. It doesn't matter, which results he had later in his career. Toney lost. And the career of Thadzi didn't peak after his win against no hoper Darrell Flint. It did that after the Toney fight.


Nobody can understand the ratings now. The users used to get useful information. They could see, how a fighters points rose or fell after a fight. Now they get nothing. A lot of points are added, but nobody can see why or when.

I tell you, the ratings follow the estimated success line of the career. They ascend, around a top win and they ascend before the win. And they fall after that high, even without a definite loss.

You expect the ratings should follow every win and loss with a step up and step down. But the ratings follow a more general line as they intermediate between more than one bout. And the ratings will show the ascending or descending ratings estimation before a big win or before a big loss from a ex post perspective too. There is much more explanatory force regarding a career, when also looking at the fights after a bout. It would be stupid to ignore that.

What I will do. I will show the specific impact of every bout by attaching a second value. Showing a measure of points won or lost.

[Jens S]

Why don't you answer my questions?

[computerrank]

Why don't you answer my questions?

I answered them, but you don't accept the answers. You don't accept, that the ratings do not strictly follow every up and down in some example sequences of bouts. And explained that a perspective including the following bouts is valid and necessary from a career perspective. And I explained you, why.

And you asked, how a user could see the impact of a distinct bout. And I answered, I would provide an indicator per bout as an additional value shown.

[Jens S]

I'll make it easy for you:

1) How should anybody be able to see, how the system works?
2) Where can anyone see, that all the ratings of a boxer is changed after his fights?

You changed the system totally, but told nobody. But this means, that all fighters ratings drops after their last fight. That is what people actually SEE.

3) You say, that in reality, they got a lot of points, but where can the users SEE it?

Nowhere.

Look at Artur Beterbiev: https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/646981

4) How can the users see, that his last win actually gave him a lot of points, not cost him a lot of points? Please show me where.

5) And show me where it says how many?

Take Callum Smith:
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/631178

6) How can anybody see, that his points hasn't decreased the last two fights?

7) How many points extra did he get after his 23rd fight after his 27th fight?

8) Where does it show?

Lennox Lewis:
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/1853
When Lennox Lewis got knocked out by Hasim Rahman, he was knocked out. Rahman was the better fighter. But not on Boxrec. After that fight Lewis should be ranked higher, because...? Because he won the rematch and other fights? NO, NO, NO! He lost to Rahman that night, and should be ranked low until the rematch. He wasn't "probably" better. He lost. That is not a guess, it is a result.

Look at Drake Thadzi:
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/907

He beat James Toney, and after the fight, his ratings were extremely low compared to Toneys. NO! He beat Toney. Toney wasn't "probably" better. He LOST. End of story. It doesn't matter, which results he had later in his career. Toney lost. And the career of Thadzi didn't peak after his win against no hoper Darrell Flint. It did that after the Toney fight.

9) An extra question: how come Drake Thadzis career peak after a win against nobody, but deteriorate after the by far biggest win in his career?

10) Am I to understand it like this: Boxer A knockouts boxer B - KO1. Boxer A gets an injury that seriously diminish his boxing abilities. Fx a torn rotator cuff, gets in to a car accident or gets a drug addiction. He fights on despite being in poor shape. He loses to fighter C half a year after his win against boxer B. Does it affect his score after the win against boxer B?

11) Why?

[margaret thatcher]

So, did Beterbiev beating Gvo lower Gvo in the system's estimation, to the extent that it therefore lowered Bert from his rating he had after his previous fight? I'm curious because it's the last fight for both, and there is really no post-fight career to go on

Or is this something that doesn't really make sense to think about under the current method

[computerrank]

I'll make it easy for you:

1) How should anybody be able to see, how the system works?
2) Where can anyone see, that all the ratings of a boxer is changed after his fights?

...

My last try with you, but I fear, you don't read.

I said, you cannot see the fight impact NOW. But I will ADD a value to each bout, where will be able to see the influece of each bout to the rating.

[computerrank]

So, did Beterbiev beating Gvo lower Gvo in the system's estimation, to the extent that it therefore lowered Bert from his rating he had after his previous fight? I'm curious because it's the last fight for both, and there is really no post-fight career to go on

Or is this something that doesn't really make sense to think about under the current method

The biggest influence on Beterbiev's rating comes from his last bout.

And no it didn't go down caused by the bout. Beterbiev got a large push up - and the rating estimations for the bouts before got pushed up too. And the final rating estimation is a bit lower than the rating estimation for the bouts before, because there is always a rating discount at the last bout, because the rating may drop in future. The discount is, because there is no post-fight career.

[Lennox]

You must have changed the way you do the rankings 30 or so times, every time you claim perfection.

You have never managed in 30 tries to better these and you never will until you understand boxing.

www.premierboxingorganisation.com/heavyweight-200

[computerrank]

You must have changed the way you do the rankings 30 or so times, every time you claim perfection.

You have never managed in 30 tries to better these and you never will until you understand boxing.

www.premierboxingorganisation.com/heavyweight-200

I never claimed perfection, but trying to improve. You claim perfection - you are the Greatest, Lennox, we all know.

[Rocky-]

What is the logic behind a fighter winning a 4 star bout and in the following match against a higher ranked guy the system downgrades the event to 3 stars?!? In other words 4 VS 5 = 3

[JCS]

You must have changed the way you do the rankings 30 or so times, every time you claim perfection.

You have never managed in 30 tries to better these and you never will until you understand boxing.

www.premierboxingorganisation.com/heavyweight-200

I never claimed perfection, but trying to improve. You claim perfection - you are the Greatest, Lennox, we all know.

[computerrank]

What is the logic behind a fighter winning a 4 star bout and in the following match against a higher ranked guy the system downgrades the event to 3 stars?!? In other words 4 VS 5 = 3

Would please post the bout_ids and boxer ids?