Classic American West Coast Boxing

[El Gato]

Dago,

I would like to contact you and make arrangements to get together. Barbara loves Mexican food and so do I, of course. However, I checked my PM and there are no messages. Can you try again? I would love to have the portrait you painted in my "private museum" in my home.


Bennie,

Yes, I am working on a book. But my son who graduated from college with a degree in journalism is writing it with me. As a matter of fact, we are going to New Mexico where he lives in June to further advance the writing of my book. Thank you for the compliment on my writing ability, however, it is not my writing. Barbara has the kindness to write my posts for me. You probably don't know the facts, but I was almost 18 years old when I first learned how to write my name. I could not read or write in any language and I signed my boxing contracts with an "X". I learned English little by little after that. Ray Ramos, the father of Mando Ramos, was the person who taught me how to write my name. I was so happy that day and so proud that I celebrated by buying me a carton of milk and a small cake and sat on the curb in the front of the Seaside Gym and ate it.

El Gato

[bennie]

Eddie Machen

I like this shot. Affluence in the background, a boxing tough guy up front. Machen certainly took on the very best.

[bennie]

Bennie,

Yes, I am working on a book. But my son who graduated from college with a degree in journalism is writing it with me. As a matter of fact, we are going to New Mexico where he lives in June to further advance the writing of my book. Thank you for the compliment on my writing ability, however, it is not my writing. Barbara has the kindness to write my posts for me. You probably don't know the facts, but I was almost 18 years old when I first learned how to write my name. I could not read or write in any language and I signed my boxing contracts with an "X". I learned English little by little after that. Ray Ramos, the father of Mando Ramos, was the person who taught me how to write my name. I was so happy that day and so proud that I celebrated by buying me a carton of milk and a small cake and sat on the curb in the front of the Seaside Gym and ate it.

El Gato

If the book gets as many hits as this great thread, it will sell, sell, sell.

[bennie]

Somebody remind me of the story of Machen's death, at just 40. I seem to recall he jumped off a building or something.

[kikibalt]

Rick Farris speaks at the World Boxing Hall of Fame's "Women In Boxing" event.

[kikibalt]

Eddie Machen

[kikibalt]

Somebody remind me of the story of Machen's death, at just 40. I seem to recall he jumped off a building or something.

Or pushed...

[kikibalt]

California Boxing Hall of Fame
Golden State Boxing Association

Don Fraser - Former President & Member
of Golden State Boxing Assn.
1992 - 2004

Golden State Boxers' Association meets every
Tuesday at the Dunes Restaurant - 5625 Sunset Blvd.
Los Angeles - 11:30am. Great friends of the boxing world!

Larry Montalvo - President
Bill Dempsey Young - Vice President
(pictured below - Bill & Larry)

The Golden State Boxer's Association was launched in 1977. The founding fathers included Welterweight Champion Jimmy McLarnin, Willie Bean, Clarence Henry, George Levine, Ray Owens, Hugh Sublett and Petey Servin. Don Fraser, known for his promoting skills eventually became Vice President and then President. Don built the membership of the Golden
State Boxer's Association over 200+ paid up members.

Don is a member and past President from 1992 - 2004. He is invaluable
to GSBA and is an advisor for the club.

Don was awarded "The Lifetime Achievement" Award by the Golden State Boxers' Association, April 12th, 2008. The Don Fraser "Lifetime Achievement" Award was presented to Father/Son Boxing Combination.

[kikibalt]

Eddie Machen

[kikibalt]

Tony Baltazar in his ninth pro fight scoring a second round ko over Juan Campos

[dagosd2000]

The San Diego Coliseum was like a lot of little boxing arenas. There was more going on there than boxing. The wrestling matches,political rallies,religious revival meetings,auctions. Even the great alto player Charlie Parker played jazz there. Archie Moore fought there in the 30's against the popular Mexican middleweight Johnny"The Bandit" Romero. Fights that had racial overtones as Romero was the "established" fighter taking on the "intruder" and "colored" fighter,Moore. Fighters on their way up. And fighters on their way down. And some who fought when their careers were on the upswing,and then ended their boxing professions at the old arena. Maybe a coat of paint once in a while,but that was about the only renovations to the old place. You parked on the street. There wasn't a bad seat in the house. And the same familiar faces could be seen each week enjoying their favorite sport.

Then it ended. Just like that it was over. Was it Cable TV? Did Jerome think he could make more money expanding his furniture business by closing down the arena and turning it into a warehouse? We had nowhere to go on a regular basis. I've never been back since it become a furniture store.

The San Diego Coliseum transformed into a furniture store. I hope, at least, Jerome gave Archie Moore a deal on a dinette set.

[Rick Farris]

Somebody remind me of the story of Machen's death, at just 40. I seem to recall he jumped off a building or something.

Or pushed...

More likely than not, Frank. Consider this, four heavyweights from the same era, Eddie Machen, Zora Folley, Roger Rischer and Sonny Liston (all fought Liston, by the way) end up dead of strange curcumstances within a year.

Machen was a "sleepwalker", or so it was reported. Eddie must have been dreaming of the the left hook that Joe Frazier bounced off his chin a few years earlier, when he just sepped off his 2nd floor balcony (must have stepped over the railing (?). Found dead on the driveway below.

Zora Folley? Zora was agreat guy and very popular in the Phoenix suburb of Chandler, Arizona. Zora was a big man in a small town, he worked for a local Chevrolet dealership, and he'd sell cars just by answering questions about his career. One day, Folley, an avid swimmer, drowned in his backyard pool. The case was listed as an accidental death, seems the accident left him with a bullet like wound to the head, that might have contributed to his sinking to the bottom of the pool???

Liston? Plain and simple, a contract hit on a guy who was scared to death of needles (go figure?) Sonny may have been a difficult individual, with a few social challenges, but he was not a drug addict. Liston's poison was "double vodka rocks", and women, very simple.

Rischer? Found in the front seat of a car with three bullet wounds to his face, gun laying by his side. Listed as a "suicide". Damn, that Roger Rischer must have been one tough SOB, shot himself in the head three times? I believe if I shot myself in the head once, it would be a little hard to pull the trigger a second time, let alone a third. That's a fighter for you.


-Rick Farris

[Rick Farris]

The San Diego Coliseum was like a lot of little boxing arenas. There was more going on there than boxing. The wrestling matches,political rallies,religious revival meetings,auctions. Even the great alto player Charlie Parker played jazz there. Archie Moore fought there in the 30's against the popular Mexican middleweight Johnny"The Bandit" Romero. Fights that had racial overtones as Romero was the "established" fighter taking on the "intruder" and "colored" fighter,Moore. Fighters on their way up. And fighters on their way down. And some who fought when their careers were on the upswing,and then ended their boxing professions at the old arena. Maybe a coat of paint once in a while,but that was about the only renovations to the old place. You parked on the street. There wasn't a bad seat in the house. And the same familiar faces could be seen each week enjoying their favorite sport.

Then it ended. Just like that it was over. Was it Cable TV? Did Jerome think he could make more money expanding his furniture business by closing down the arena and turning it into a warehouse? We had nowhere to go on a regular basis. I've never been back since it become a furniture store.

The San Diego Coliseum transformed into a furniture store. I hope, at least, Jerome gave Archie Moore a deal on a dinette set.

Sad to see the small clubs go, however, as you know Dagos, despite the little Coliseum's glorius past, and the greats who fought there, for every brilliant career that came out of that little cockpit, dozens more ended there. In L.A. most regarded it as a graveyard for L.A. fighters. It was a place where pigeons went to die. I fought in some holes in my life, but the bottom of the barrel was the San Diego Coliseum. I was sorry to see Mickey Davies career end there.

Of course, my own bad memories of the place were my own fault. I recall laying on a bench, as commission doc wearing inch thick glasses stitched a cut I'd gotten in a match. Then the shower leaked all over the floor and drained down the corridor like a river, out into the arena, down the stairs, where it formed one giant puddle at ringside after a boxer would shower. It was like a shallow waterfall of shower water, spilled beer, blood, and anything else that might come in on the bottom of a person's shoes.

That's boxing however, and I love boxing. I just hate that damn little arena in S.D. and you'll never catch me in the place shopping for a sofa or dining room table. No way! :x


-Ricardo

[fatcity69]

Sorry to bump in here, but can someone here tell me the username of craig who sells the dvds?.... I am silkov and am sending a cheque to him for some dvds... I've had to open a new account due to email problems and cant access my old messages... and cant remember his username... just want him to know that I have the cheque ready now and will be sending it on Monday.... feel free to pm me...

[dagosd2000]

The San Diego Coliseum was like a lot of little boxing arenas. There was more going on there than boxing. The wrestling matches,political rallies,religious revival meetings,auctions. Even the great alto player Charlie Parker played jazz there. Archie Moore fought there in the 30's against the popular Mexican middleweight Johnny"The Bandit" Romero. Fights that had racial overtones as Romero was the "established" fighter taking on the "intruder" and "colored" fighter,Moore. Fighters on their way up. And fighters on their way down. And some who fought when their careers were on the upswing,and then ended their boxing professions at the old arena. Maybe a coat of paint once in a while,but that was about the only renovations to the old place. You parked on the street. There wasn't a bad seat in the house. And the same familiar faces could be seen each week enjoying their favorite sport.

Then it ended. Just like that it was over. Was it Cable TV? Did Jerome think he could make more money expanding his furniture business by closing down the arena and turning it into a warehouse? We had nowhere to go on a regular basis. I've never been back since it become a furniture store.

The San Diego Coliseum transformed into a furniture store. I hope, at least, Jerome gave Archie Moore a deal on a dinette set.

Sad to see the small clubs go, however, as you know Dagos, despite the little Coliseum's glorius past, and the greats who fought there, for every brilliant career that came out of that little cockpit, dozens more ended there. In L.A. most regarded it as a graveyard for L.A. fighters. It was a place where pigeons went to die. I fought in some holes in my life, but the bottom of the barrel was the San Diego Coliseum. I was sorry to see Mickey Davies career end there.

Of course, my own bad memories of the place were my own fault. I recall laying on a bench, as commission doc wearing inch thick glasses stitched a cut I'd gotten in a match. Then the shower leaked all over the floor and drained down the corridor like a river, out into the arena, down the stairs, where it formed one giant puddle at ringside after a boxer would shower. It was like a shallow waterfall of shower water, spilled beer, blood, and anything else that might come in on the bottom of a person's shoes.

That's boxing however, and I love boxing. I just hate that damn little arena in S.D. and you'll never catch me in the place shopping for a sofa or dining room table. No way! :x


-Ricardo

Rick
I'd change my clothes in there. How about the mold and that moldy smell? The locker room was always getting bombarded with the fighters' cologne. But if you wanted to get out of there and fight in the big time you had to win. But you're right buddy, a lot of great fighters wound up finishing there also. Denny Moyer always comes to mind. But you know Rick,if they left boxing with their faculties,they got out of boxing OK. Who cares if they finished up at the Coliseum? Look at Ali. He never finished his career there.

[dagosd2000]

Somebody remind me of the story of Machen's death, at just 40. I seem to recall he jumped off a building or something.

Or pushed...

More likely than not, Frank. Consider this, four heavyweights from the same era, Eddie Machen, Zora Folley, Roger Rischer and Sonny Liston (all fought Liston, by the way) end up dead of strange curcumstances within a year.

Machen was a "sleepwalker", or so it was reported. Eddie must have been dreaming of the the left hook that Joe Frazier bounced off his chin a few years earlier, when he just sepped off his 2nd floor balcony (must have stepped over the railing (?). Found dead on the driveway below.

Zora Folley? Zora was agreat guy and very popular in the Phoenix suburb of Chandler, Arizona. Zora was a big man in a small town, he worked for a local Chevrolet dealership, and he'd sell cars just by answering questions about his career. One day, Folley, an avid swimmer, drowned in his backyard pool. The case was listed as an accidental death, seems the accident left him with a bullet like wound to the head, that might have contributed to his sinking to the bottom of the pool???

Liston? Plain and simple, a contract hit on a guy who was scared to death of needles (go figure?) Sonny may have been a difficult individual, with a few social challenges, but he was not a drug addict. Liston's poison was "double vodka rocks", and women, very simple.

Rischer? Found in the front seat of a car with three bullet wounds to his face, gun laying by his side. Listed as a "suicide". Damn, that Roger Rischer must have been one tough SOB, shot himself in the head three times? I believe if I shot myself in the head once, it would be a little hard to pull the trigger a second time, let alone a third. That's a fighter for you.


-Rick Farris

Rick
Wasn't Machen institutionalized for mental illness also? You're right about Folley. From what I read, he was a devoted father and husband. I've read on the night he died,he was with a strange woman. Sounds like they wanted to disparege his character. And Liston? The stuff he must hsve had on people like Ash Resnic. Then he'd get plastered and threaten to snitch. Count ten over that guy.

[dagosd2000]

Hey Pug 'Ol Buddy
Been back to that place called "Taylor Street"? That's all I heard when I was growing up. The pool room on Taylor Street. The guys that hung out on the corner on Taylor Street. The dice games they had on Taylor Street. And the general comment:That's how they would have done it on Taylor Street. I think if you would have taken Taylor Street out of the Italian neighborhood,the bottom would have dropped out.

[Expug]

Hey Pug 'Ol Buddy
Been back to that place called "Taylor Street"? That's all I heard when I was growing up. The pool room on Taylor Street. The guys that hung out on the corner on Taylor Street. The dice games they had on Taylor Street. And the general comment:That's how they would have done it on Taylor Street. I think if you would have taken Taylor Street out of the Italian neighborhood,the bottom would have dropped out.

Yes Dagos. I go in there quite a bit.
Mickey is a good guy and a former trainer and manager of some local fighters.
He had Jumbo Cummings , Alan "Muleman" Alexander and a few others.
He took Jumbo over to England to fight Frank Bruno,
Maybe Bennie knows more about this fight.
Ive never seen it , but Mickey claims Jumbo had Frank in trouble early and that the ref shouldnt of stopped it later on when Cummings was down.
Taylor Street is alive and well.
Still a popular area for tourists to get good Italian food.
I think alot of Italians still live there.
Ive always maintained that to get great Italian food and get a flavor of Italian culture, its just as good to go to the area around 26th and Oakley or the neighborhood around Grand and Ogden.
Some great resteraunts, La Bacanalia, La Fontannela some others whos names escape me.

[dagosd2000]

Hey Pug 'Ol Buddy
Been back to that place called "Taylor Street"? That's all I heard when I was growing up. The pool room on Taylor Street. The guys that hung out on the corner on Taylor Street. The dice games they had on Taylor Street. And the general comment:That's how they would have done it on Taylor Street. I think if you would have taken Taylor Street out of the Italian neighborhood,the bottom would have dropped out.

Yes Dagos. I go in there quite a bit.
Mickey is a good guy and a former trainer and manager of some local fighters.
He had Jumbo Cummings , Alan "Muleman" Alexander and a few others.
He took Jumbo over to England to fight Frank Bruno,
Maybe Bennie knows more about this fight.
Ive never seen it , but Mickey claims Jumbo had Frank in trouble early and that the ref shouldnt of stopped it later on when Cummings was down.
Taylor Street is alive and well.
Still a popular area for tourists to get good Italian food.
I think alot of Italians still live there.
Ive always maintained that to get great Italian food and get a flavor of Italian culture, its just as good to go to the area around 26th and Oakley or the neighborhood around Grand and Ogden.
Some great resteraunts, La Bacanalia, La Fontannela some others whos names escape me.

Polk and Oakley is where I lived. I went back there. The University Illinois at Chicago is sitting on the old property. Real ghetto. Italian food is like Mexican food. People who come down here ask me where a good Mexican restaurant is in San Diego or Tijuana. I tell them that I really don't know of any. If it's San Diego,I'll tell them to find a good taco shop. There must be a million in San Diego. The way you can tell a good one is to look and see where the "illegals" eat their lunch. That goes for Tijuana too,except all the Mexicans there are legal. Mexicans in TJ eat off the carts or the little menudo stands that are along the streets. The Red Light District has the best food in TJ.

As far as Italian food goes ,if you're Italian you eat the food your mother or wife makes. If not,get an Italian to invite you over for dinner.

[Expug]

What concerns me , is the threat of the true Italian eating experience becoming obsolete in our rush rush rush, I want it freakin yesterday culture.
When you go to a true Italian restaraunt or Im sure, an Italian home, its supposed to take awhile.
Its an experience to be savored , not rushed through.

[dagosd2000]

What concerns me , is the threat of the true Italian eating experience becoming obsolete in our rush rush rush, I want it freakin yesterday culture.
When you go to a true Italian restaraunt or Im sure, an Italian home, its supposed to take awhile.
Its an experience to be savored , not rushed through.

My sensitive,astute,Irish friend
When Frank gets back from fishing,I'm going to send him some shots of my wife's hometown. No rush rush there. A culture intact. People who have faces that are alive with expression. The food is not a meal,but an event. Some old Italian guys who've lost their wives sometimes find the place. They find themselves a nice wife and open up a pizzaria.

[dagosd2000]

Pug
You were talking about how Italian food should be prepared carefully,not rushed. That's very true. That's why the timing is off when you go to an Italian restaurant. You don't know when the gravy was made. If you eat it to soon the gravy may have too much acid. Pizza is probably the best bet. Good gravy needs to set overnight to get rid of the acid.

I remember Archie Moore had a "feed" at Ocean View Park in Logan Heights. It was mainly for all the "brothers",but if you appreciated good Bar B Q you were more than welcome. My favorite has always been hot links. Butchers make them diffrent ways. I like to taste the fiber in the link. I don't like them too ground up. And then the hot sauce has to be real hot. A vinegar base for me when it comes to links. The Portugese have their sausage that they call "Linguisa". I lived near a Portugese neighborhood out here and there was an old Portugese guy who would drive up to Oakland once a week and bring the"Liguisa" down here to San Diego. I have to admit it was better than any Italian sausage I'd ever eaten. A cross between hot links and Mexican chorizo. This guy's name was Mauricio and everybody in the Portugese neighborhood would wait for his truck to arrive from Oakland.

Back to Archie Moore. His specialty was chicken. C @ M Meats in Nationmal City would fix him up with tender smaller birds and game hens. He'd slowly turned them on the spit so the meat would almost fall off the bone. He'd baste the birds with his sauce. He did this often. He loved when someone would ask him what was in the sauce.You had a better chance getting the keys to his house. All I know is that it was not too sweet and had a little vinegar in it. There was some kind of mix of herbs,but I couldn't guess what it was. Serve that all up with corn on the cob and slaw. Red beans on the side. A champion feed made by the Champ.

Fast food. Rush,rush. Ask Arch if you could treat him to MacDonalds,and he'd have you figured out.

[bennie]

Hey Pug 'Ol Buddy
Been back to that place called "Taylor Street"? That's all I heard when I was growing up. The pool room on Taylor Street. The guys that hung out on the corner on Taylor Street. The dice games they had on Taylor Street. And the general comment:That's how they would have done it on Taylor Street. I think if you would have taken Taylor Street out of the Italian neighborhood,the bottom would have dropped out.

Yes Dagos. I go in there quite a bit.
Mickey is a good guy and a former trainer and manager of some local fighters.
He had Jumbo Cummings , Alan "Muleman" Alexander and a few others.
He took Jumbo over to England to fight Frank Bruno,
Maybe Bennie knows more about this fight.
Ive never seen it , but Mickey claims Jumbo had Frank in trouble early and that the ref shouldnt of stopped it later on when Cummings was down.
Taylor Street is alive and well.
Still a popular area for tourists to get good Italian food.
I think alot of Italians still live there.
Ive always maintained that to get great Italian food and get a flavor of Italian culture, its just as good to go to the area around 26th and Oakley or the neighborhood around Grand and Ogden.
Some great resteraunts, La Bacanalia, La Fontannela some others whos names escape me.

Cummings nailed Bruno with a huge right a split-second before the bell to end the first round. If ever the bell saved a man, it was here. Bruno was out on his feet, supported back to his corner, where they woke him up, and showed all his power and fitness to force his way back into the fight. Question Frank's chin and natural ability: never question his power and fitness.
The stoppage did look a bit 'iffy'. Bruno dropped his man in the seventh by the ropes and referee Mike Jacobs, later to lose his Star Class refereeing licence, stopped it without even counting.
I remember it was still pretty even-Steven at the stoppage.

[Rick Farris]

The San Diego Coliseum was like a lot of little boxing arenas. There was more going on there than boxing. The wrestling matches,political rallies,religious revival meetings,auctions. Even the great alto player Charlie Parker played jazz there. Archie Moore fought there in the 30's against the popular Mexican middleweight Johnny"The Bandit" Romero. Fights that had racial overtones as Romero was the "established" fighter taking on the "intruder" and "colored" fighter,Moore. Fighters on their way up. And fighters on their way down. And some who fought when their careers were on the upswing,and then ended their boxing professions at the old arena. Maybe a coat of paint once in a while,but that was about the only renovations to the old place. You parked on the street. There wasn't a bad seat in the house. And the same familiar faces could be seen each week enjoying their favorite sport.

Then it ended. Just like that it was over. Was it Cable TV? Did Jerome think he could make more money expanding his furniture business by closing down the arena and turning it into a warehouse? We had nowhere to go on a regular basis. I've never been back since it become a furniture store.

The San Diego Coliseum transformed into a furniture store. I hope, at least, Jerome gave Archie Moore a deal on a dinette set.

Sad to see the small clubs go, however, as you know Dagos, despite the little Coliseum's glorius past, and the greats who fought there, for every brilliant career that came out of that little cockpit, dozens more ended there. In L.A. most regarded it as a graveyard for L.A. fighters. It was a place where pigeons went to die. I fought in some holes in my life, but the bottom of the barrel was the San Diego Coliseum. I was sorry to see Mickey Davies career end there.

Of course, my own bad memories of the place were my own fault. I recall laying on a bench, as commission doc wearing inch thick glasses stitched a cut I'd gotten in a match. Then the shower leaked all over the floor and drained down the corridor like a river, out into the arena, down the stairs, where it formed one giant puddle at ringside after a boxer would shower. It was like a shallow waterfall of shower water, spilled beer, blood, and anything else that might come in on the bottom of a person's shoes.

That's boxing however, and I love boxing. I just hate that damn little arena in S.D. and you'll never catch me in the place shopping for a sofa or dining room table. No way! :x


-Ricardo

Rick
I'd change my clothes in there. How about the mold and that moldy smell? The locker room was always getting bombarded with the fighters' cologne. But if you wanted to get out of there and fight in the big time you had to win. But you're right buddy, a lot of great fighters wound up finishing there also. Denny Moyer always comes to mind. But you know Rick,if they left boxing with their faculties,they got out of boxing OK. Who cares if they finished up at the Coliseum? Look at Ali. He never finished his career there.

Good post, and very true.

-Ricardo

[Rick Farris]

The San Diego Coliseum was like a lot of little boxing arenas. There was more going on there than boxing. The wrestling matches,political rallies,religious revival meetings,auctions. Even the great alto player Charlie Parker played jazz there. Archie Moore fought there in the 30's against the popular Mexican middleweight Johnny"The Bandit" Romero. Fights that had racial overtones as Romero was the "established" fighter taking on the "intruder" and "colored" fighter,Moore. Fighters on their way up. And fighters on their way down. And some who fought when their careers were on the upswing,and then ended their boxing professions at the old arena. Maybe a coat of paint once in a while,but that was about the only renovations to the old place. You parked on the street. There wasn't a bad seat in the house. And the same familiar faces could be seen each week enjoying their favorite sport.

Then it ended. Just like that it was over. Was it Cable TV? Did Jerome think he could make more money expanding his furniture business by closing down the arena and turning it into a warehouse? We had nowhere to go on a regular basis. I've never been back since it become a furniture store.

The San Diego Coliseum transformed into a furniture store. I hope, at least, Jerome gave Archie Moore a deal on a dinette set.

Sad to see the small clubs go, however, as you know Dagos, despite the little Coliseum's glorius past, and the greats who fought there, for every brilliant career that came out of that little cockpit, dozens more ended there. In L.A. most regarded it as a graveyard for L.A. fighters. It was a place where pigeons went to die. I fought in some holes in my life, but the bottom of the barrel was the San Diego Coliseum. I was sorry to see Mickey Davies career end there.

Of course, my own bad memories of the place were my own fault. I recall laying on a bench, as commission doc wearing inch thick glasses stitched a cut I'd gotten in a match. Then the shower leaked all over the floor and drained down the corridor like a river, out into the arena, down the stairs, where it formed one giant puddle at ringside after a boxer would shower. It was like a shallow waterfall of shower water, spilled beer, blood, and anything else that might come in on the bottom of a person's shoes.

That's boxing however, and I love boxing. I just hate that damn little arena in S.D. and you'll never catch me in the place shopping for a sofa or dining room table. No way! :x


-Ricardo

Rick
I'd change my clothes in there. How about the mold and that moldy smell? The locker room was always getting bombarded with the fighters' cologne. But if you wanted to get out of there and fight in the big time you had to win. But you're right buddy, a lot of great fighters wound up finishing there also. Denny Moyer always comes to mind. But you know Rick,if they left boxing with their faculties,they got out of boxing OK. Who cares if they finished up at the Coliseum? Look at Ali. He never finished his career there.