Il Duce- Please give me your top ten heavyweights in order

[ThatOne]

Ed 'Gunboat' Smith,

'I learned to fight in the Naval Yards, on the Docks with 'meanest bastards' around.
I mean real tough guys who knew every dirty trick in the book. Guys who wouldn't
think twice about hitting you in the groin, kick you, bite you rip your eyes out. And
this is before the fight even started.'

'Cassius Clay would have never gotten off the Docks in one piece. If he hopped around
like that with us, the guys watching would have grabbed him, beat him up, and thrown
him off the pier. And, could care less if he could swim. Now I know why he doesn't
want to go into the service. It's safer out here.'

The armed forces were segregated then. He beat up equally feckless white guys. So what.

[klompton]

Ed 'Gunboat' Smith,

'I learned to fight in the Naval Yards, on the Docks with 'meanest bastards' around.
I mean real tough guys who knew every dirty trick in the book. Guys who wouldn't
think twice about hitting you in the groin, kick you, bite you, and rip your eyes out.
And this is before the fight even started.'

'Cassius Clay would have never gotten off the Docks in one piece. If he hopped around
like that with us, the guys watching would have grabbed him, beat him up, and thrown
him off the pier. And, could care less if he could swim. Now I know why he doesn't
want to go into the service. It's safer out here.'

Interpretation: "I wouldnt have been able to beat Ali (who was taller, faster, and weighed 40 pounds more than me) myself so I would have gotten the help of a gang of white guys and we would have jumped him. Boxing? Whats that?"

[klompton]

Ed 'Gunboat' Smith,

'I learned to fight in the Naval Yards, on the Docks with 'meanest bastards' around.
I mean real tough guys who knew every dirty trick in the book. Guys who wouldn't
think twice about hitting you in the groin, kick you, bite you rip your eyes out. And
this is before the fight even started.'

'Cassius Clay would have never gotten off the Docks in one piece. If he hopped around
like that with us, the guys watching would have grabbed him, beat him up, and thrown
him off the pier. And, could care less if he could swim. Now I know why he doesn't
want to go into the service. It's safer out here.'

The armed forces were segregated then. He beat up equally feckless white guys. So what.

Actually in defense of Smith the Navy wasnt completely segregated while he was in and in fact his first bout in the navy (according to him) was against an African American. Smith was one of the few fighters of this era who didnt seem to have a problem facing African Americans. If his account of his first bout is accurate then he began and ended his career facing black fighters.

[ThatOne]

Random points.

I do wish Il Duce would provide citations. It's a common courtesy.

He's not the worst of fellas, just a bit misguided, biased, and delusional.

I'm going out. I will look forward to checking back later to see what aberrant nonsense he writes in my absence.

See ya later.

[evrenb]

Il Duck...are you a member of the Cassius Clay fanclub..lol...you are in an extreme minority with your views you have to accept that...?

[gilgamesh]

Ed 'Gunboat' Smith,

'Back in my day, we fought every two-weeks or so, with no time to rest. We just kept
fighting to make money. Nobody cared all that much about winning-streaks or staying
'unbeaten'. You know what was important, getting paid was important'.

'I started when I was 22 {1909}, and by the time I was 27 {1914} I already had about
100-Fights. Nobody kept all the records back then, like they do today. These 'babies' today
don't know how good they have it.'

'Sonny Liston, the way he fights once-a-year. He would have never made it. I don't
care how big he is, he would have been worn down. And Clay, I bet when his career
is done, he may have 40 fights or so on his record.'

Looks like ol' Gunboat Smith was wrong on that one.

Fighter's fighting less as time went on has nothing to do with fighters being cowardly or whatever with the progress of time. They just kept getting paid better and better until fighting a dozen or so times a year was not necessary.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Yup, Dempsey made enough coin not fighting to sit on the title for years.

[DaveyMac]

I don't really want to be in the argument of cultural significance Dempsey vs. Ali, they both had tons. Lord knows as a collector of vintage Ring mags how annoying it is that every issue seems to have a story about Dempsey even though he had been retired for 10,20, 30, 40 even 50 years. Clearly he had an impact.
Likewise, Ali was probably the most well known athlete of my lifetime without a doubt and had tremendous cultural impact.

What I would like to say is don't forget what great impact Joe Louis had!!!
I have a large bronze desk clock in my office. It looks just like this one here on ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-BOXING- ... 43aaab5df9.

That clock was the first time in the history of the United States of America that a piece of popular art was made for the common man about a black man that a) didn't have the black man as a sambo type character and b) was marketed to whites and blacks.
That's a tremendous cultural shift right there!
Then you have the Schmeling fight, which was a move as well for Americans to put aside racism and unite against fascism. Louis was a hero after that fight to white America as well as black America. That was unprecedented.
Of course during WWII Louis gave up everything, his career, his earnings, everything to constantly stump for the US government and recruit soldiers. He did this selflessly and without making a big deal about it. It is fair to say the world was changing, but it's also fair to say that without Joe Louis, Jackie Robinson and Brown vs. Board of Education and so many other things would have been delayed several more years.

And of course what did he get for all of his good will? Screwed over by the government, but that's another story. :)

Joe Louis in his day, however, was as famous as a person could be and I think it would be silly to have a Dempsey/Ali as greatest argument and ignore Louis based on some idea that the other two were more culturally important. In their own day they all three were huge.
And if it comes to an argument about class, with no disrespect to Dempsey or Ali, they couldn't hold Joe's jock in the class department.

[evrenb]

I don't really want to be in the argument of cultural significance Dempsey vs. Ali, they both had tons. Lord knows as a collector of vintage Ring mags how annoying it is that every issue seems to have a story about Dempsey even though he had been retired for 10,20, 30, 40 even 50 years. Clearly he had an impact.
Likewise, Ali was probably the most well known athlete of my lifetime without a doubt and had tremendous cultural impact.

What I would like to say is don't forget what great impact Joe Louis had!!!
I have a large bronze desk clock in my office. It looks just like this one here on ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-BOXING- ... 43aaab5df9.

That clock was the first time in the history of the United States of America that a piece of popular art was made for the common man about a black man that a) didn't have the black man as a sambo type character and b) was marketed to whites and blacks.
That's a tremendous cultural shift right there!
Then you have the Schmeling fight, which was a move as well for Americans to put aside racism and unite against fascism. Louis was a hero after that fight to white America as well as black America. That was unprecedented.
Of course during WWII Louis gave up everything, his career, his earnings, everything to constantly stump for the US government and recruit soldiers. He did this selflessly and without making a big deal about it. It is fair to say the world was changing, but it's also fair to say that without Joe Louis, Jackie Robinson and Brown vs. Board of Education and so many other things would have been delayed several more years.

And of course what did he get for all of his good will? Screwed over by the government, but that's another story. :)

Joe Louis in his day, however, was as famous as a person could be and I think it would be silly to have a Dempsey/Ali as greatest argument and ignore Louis based on some idea that the other two were more culturally important. In their own day they all three were huge.
And if it comes to an argument about class, with no disrespect to Dempsey or Ali, they couldn't hold Joe's jock in the class department.

No One is perfect...not even Joe Louis...and I'm not even going there....

[ThatOne]

Muhammad Ali gave Joe Louis $30,000.00 In the mid seventies to help him out. That would be like $150,000.00 today.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I'm sure Joe appreciated it. It's rumored that Frazier gave someone money when they needed help and they were far less thankful.

[evrenb]

Muhammad Ali gave Joe Louis $30,000.00 In the mid seventies to help him out. That would be like $150,000.00 today.

Yes, but Frank Sinatra gave Joe Louis much more.......and kept it quiet.

There is a big difference beween 'Quiet Class'...........and 'Boastful Cash'

Yeah... Sinatra was real class.I'm not going there either...

[ThatOne]

Muhammad Ali gave Joe Louis $30,000.00 In the mid seventies to help him out. That would be like $150,000.00 today.

Yes, but Frank Sinatra gave Joe Louis much more.......and kept it quiet.

There is a big difference beween 'Quiet Class'...........and 'Boastful Cash'

There you go again.... He didn't publicize it. It was in a book I'm reading called Ring of Fire. But since you brought up Boastful Cash i have to share the following to set the record straight:



It is important to note that although Muhammad Ali was a Muslim, he did not exclude any group from his humanitarian efforts. Given the longstanding conflict between Muslims and Jews in the United States and abroad, many would assume that Muhammad Ali would not consider contributing to any Jewish causes. However, many sources have documented his contribution to the Self Help Community Services Hillside Aged Program of Washington Heights, New York City. According to these reports, Ali discovered that the center, which provided recreational facilities for 54 aged and handicapped members, needed $100,000 or it would soon be forced to shut its doors.[50] Ferdie Pacheco remembers the occasion:

My mind flashes back to a hotel room in New York City before the first Frazier fight. Ali was watching the news. A story came on about ancient inhabitants of a Jewish nursing home who were being evicted because they couldn’t come up with $100,000. It was cold in New York, and the thought of those old people on the street got to Ali. Without any discussion, he reached for the phone and called the TV station. He would donate the $100,000 provided his name not be used. Ali did not want trouble from the Muslims or from certain members of the Ali Circus who were chronically “in need.” Money was given, it arrived in time, old people were saved, the curtain comes down, go to black and a happy ending.

Not quite.

Someone leaked it to the New York newspapers, and Ali was on the front page.[51]

Later, when Ali was asked about this gesture, he said: “These poor crippled people came to this place to eat and talk with each other and draw a little and color, and that kept them alive. And no one else came up with the money. Didn’t matter they were white or Jewish. Somebody’s got to make a stand. Ain’t nobody helping nobody in this country. It’s dog eat dog. The dollar, the dollar, that’s all they worry about.”[52] In this simple yet profound statement, Ali reveals that his desire to aid others, particularly those who have fallen by the wayside, serves as an impetus in his life. Ali has continued his efforts to preserve the dignity and freedom of all peoples, regardless of race or creed to this very day, a fact recognized by the Givat Haviva Educational Foundation, which held a ceremony in 1998 honoring Ali for his humanitarian work.[53]

[gilgamesh]

I don't really want to be in the argument of cultural significance Dempsey vs. Ali, they both had tons. Lord knows as a collector of vintage Ring mags how annoying it is that every issue seems to have a story about Dempsey even though he had been retired for 10,20, 30, 40 even 50 years. Clearly he had an impact.
Likewise, Ali was probably the most well known athlete of my lifetime without a doubt and had tremendous cultural impact.

What I would like to say is don't forget what great impact Joe Louis had!!!
I have a large bronze desk clock in my office. It looks just like this one here on ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-BOXING- ... 43aaab5df9.

That clock was the first time in the history of the United States of America that a piece of popular art was made for the common man about a black man that a) didn't have the black man as a sambo type character and b) was marketed to whites and blacks.
That's a tremendous cultural shift right there!
Then you have the Schmeling fight, which was a move as well for Americans to put aside racism and unite against fascism. Louis was a hero after that fight to white America as well as black America. That was unprecedented.
Of course during WWII Louis gave up everything, his career, his earnings, everything to constantly stump for the US government and recruit soldiers. He did this selflessly and without making a big deal about it. It is fair to say the world was changing, but it's also fair to say that without Joe Louis, Jackie Robinson and Brown vs. Board of Education and so many other things would have been delayed several more years.

And of course what did he get for all of his good will? Screwed over by the government, but that's another story. :)

Joe Louis in his day, however, was as famous as a person could be and I think it would be silly to have a Dempsey/Ali as greatest argument and ignore Louis based on some idea that the other two were more culturally important. In their own day they all three were huge.
And if it comes to an argument about class, with no disrespect to Dempsey or Ali, they couldn't hold Joe's jock in the class department.

It's not very classy to say somebody couldn't hold somebody's jock in the class department....just sayin'

[grevan]

Hard to believe you're all still arguing with a bloke who thinks Gunboat Smith would have beaten Muhammad Ali.

You just can't argue with that sort of ingorance.

[p4p1]

Hard to believe you're all still arguing with a bloke who thinks Gunboat Smith would have beaten Muhammad Ali.

You just can't argue with that sort of ingorance.

I never said Ed 'Gunboat' Smith would have beaten Muhammad Ali......

Ed 'Gunboat' Smith said,

He would have hit Cassius Clay in the face at the weigh-in, and with chair outside his dressing room.

And how can you have a discussion with someone who spells 'I-G-N-O-R-A-N-C-E' incorrecty.

GREVAN........YOU DICK.

He wouldn't of made it to the dressing room the NOI would of made sure of that.

[grevan]

Hard to believe you're all still arguing with a bloke who thinks Gunboat Smith would have beaten Muhammad Ali.

You just can't argue with that sort of ingorance.

I never said Ed 'Gunboat' Smith would have beaten Muhammad Ali......

Ed 'Gunboat' Smith said,

He would have hit Cassius Clay in the face at the weigh-in, and with chair outside his dressing room.

And how can you have a discussion with someone who spells 'I-G-N-O-R-A-N-C-E' incorrecty.

GREVAN........YOU DICK.

Sorry mate, I didn't realise you'd made such a compelling argument for Ali's demise.

Thanks for the correction too, I'll keep reading your posts for more spelling tips.

Don't know about the last line though. Do the capital letters mean you're yelling?

Anyway, back in my box.

[DaveyMac]

I don't really want to be in the argument of cultural significance Dempsey vs. Ali, they both had tons. Lord knows as a collector of vintage Ring mags how annoying it is that every issue seems to have a story about Dempsey even though he had been retired for 10,20, 30, 40 even 50 years. Clearly he had an impact.
Likewise, Ali was probably the most well known athlete of my lifetime without a doubt and had tremendous cultural impact.

What I would like to say is don't forget what great impact Joe Louis had!!!
I have a large bronze desk clock in my office. It looks just like this one here on ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-BOXING- ... 43aaab5df9.

That clock was the first time in the history of the United States of America that a piece of popular art was made for the common man about a black man that a) didn't have the black man as a sambo type character and b) was marketed to whites and blacks.
That's a tremendous cultural shift right there!
Then you have the Schmeling fight, which was a move as well for Americans to put aside racism and unite against fascism. Louis was a hero after that fight to white America as well as black America. That was unprecedented.
Of course during WWII Louis gave up everything, his career, his earnings, everything to constantly stump for the US government and recruit soldiers. He did this selflessly and without making a big deal about it. It is fair to say the world was changing, but it's also fair to say that without Joe Louis, Jackie Robinson and Brown vs. Board of Education and so many other things would have been delayed several more years.

And of course what did he get for all of his good will? Screwed over by the government, but that's another story. :)

Joe Louis in his day, however, was as famous as a person could be and I think it would be silly to have a Dempsey/Ali as greatest argument and ignore Louis based on some idea that the other two were more culturally important. In their own day they all three were huge.
And if it comes to an argument about class, with no disrespect to Dempsey or Ali, they couldn't hold Joe's jock in the class department.

It's not very classy to say somebody couldn't hold somebody's jock in the class department....just sayin'

Tbf, I said Joe Louis had class, not me :) I could be and probably am a complete dick :) So don't let the jock comment detract from Joe, I said that not him.

[ThatOne]

Hard to believe you're all still arguing with a bloke who thinks Gunboat Smith would have beaten Muhammad Ali.

You just can't argue with that sort of ingorance.

I never said Ed 'Gunboat' Smith would have beaten Muhammad Ali......

Ed 'Gunboat' Smith said,

He would have hit Cassius Clay in the face at the weigh-in, and with chair outside his dressing room.

And how can you have a discussion with someone who spells 'I-G-N-O-R-A-N-C-E' incorrecty.

GREVAN........YOU DICK.

He wouldn't of made it to the dressing room the NOI would of made sure of that.

“Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery.”

[ThatOne]

[ThatOne]

[ThatOne]

[ThatOne]

[ThatOne]

[ThatOne]

You know Mr. That One,,,,,,,,

I'm getting the feeling that Muhammad Ali really did like to rub-elbows with 'White Folk'......

You know, if Joe Frazier did that.........Muhammad would call him an 'Uncle Tom'.....

'Cousin Cassius'............

That was an act... He loved everybody and almost everybody loved him.