SONNY LISTON VS ANTHONY JOSHUA

[DrDuke]

Frazier would get murdered by Joshua... When has AJ ever been floored by a left hook??? Whyte caught him with a big left hook and he didn't go down like Ali, wasn't shaken like Ali was, and didn't grab and hold on like Ali always did... and destroyed Whyte with a savage right uppercut to end him... the same punch Foreman ruined Frazier with.

Frazier never fought anyone as big and powerful as AJ... the biggest he messed with was 6'3" X 217 Foreman.... Don't tell me about all the big, fat guys Frazier fought like Blubber Mathis.

Frazier damned near got killed by the only big, tall, powerful, and rock-hard man he ever fought.... Which is generally what happens to a 5'11" X 205 swinger who loads up and tries to walk right through everybody's punches fights a big, tall, powerhouse puncher... The oddsmakers were clueless. They had Frazier a 4-1 favorite based off his Ali win.

The Doug Jones fight was significant because Jones was a Light Heavyweight and Ali couldn't light him up or get him out.

Frazier never fought anyone as big as AJ, because in his time there was no such big boxers. Frazier had fought with bigger fighters than him for plenty of times and he had no problems with coming inside. Only Foreman was his kinda antidote for him. And how can you compare Whyte's power with Frazier's? Frazier was very special in closing the distance, he would have definitely landed on Joshua. And AJ wouldn't be able to take Joe's left hook, Joe wasn't some Whyte.

[wouter]

Liston ate right counters off his jab and you could see that versus Zora Folley who hit Liston with 20 right hand counters dead on the chin before he got knocked out...

Did you see that one in a triple feature along with Zale v. Grazanio I and II ?

[Kalan]

Frazier never fought anyone as big as AJ, because in his time there was no such big boxers. Frazier had fought with bigger fighters than him for plenty of times and he had no problems with coming inside. Only Foreman was his kinda antidote for him. And how can you compare Whyte's power with Frazier's? Frazier was very special in closing the distance, he would have definitely landed on Joshua. And AJ wouldn't be able to take Joe's left hook, Joe wasn't some Whyte.

You're right there... Whyte doesn't load up left hooks and get knocked into the ring lights by a guy weighing 217.

Club footed 203-pound Bonavena floored Frazier twice... Anyone over 200 pounds who could punch hard floored Frazier... The bums Frazier fought wouldn't get within a million miles of a Title Fight today... Zyglwitz... Daniels.... Ramos... Stander... Blubber Mathis... Ellis was no bum, but he fought most of his career as a Middleweight... Quarry ate punches and didn't train... Chuvalo was a punching bag who couldn't beat Pete Rademacher... Light Heavyweight Bob Foster??? GTFO

Zyglewitz lost to tomato cans with losing records..

Blubber Mathis weighed 220 for one fight and 280 for another...

Stander had rolls of fat on him.

Ramos lost to a guy who Too Tall Jones CRUSHED in 40 seconds.

Daniels wouldn't get within 10,000 miles of a Title Fight today.

[DrDuke]

Frazier never fought anyone as big as AJ, because in his time there was no such big boxers. Frazier had fought with bigger fighters than him for plenty of times and he had no problems with coming inside. Only Foreman was his kinda antidote for him. And how can you compare Whyte's power with Frazier's? Frazier was very special in closing the distance, he would have definitely landed on Joshua. And AJ wouldn't be able to take Joe's left hook, Joe wasn't some Whyte.

You're right there... Whyte doesn't load up left hooks and get knocked into the ring lights by a guy weighing 217.

Club footed 203-pound Bonavena floored Frazier twice... Anyone over 200 pounds who could punch hard floored Frazier... The bums Frazier fought wouldn't get within a million miles of a Title Fight today... Zyglwitz... Daniels.... Ramos... Stander... Blubber Mathis... Ellis was no bum, but he fought most of his career as a Middleweight... Quarry ate punches and didn't train... Chuvalo was a punching bag who couldn't beat Pete Rademacher... Light Heavyweight Bob Foster??? GTFO

Zyglewitz lost to tomato cans with losing records..

Blubber Mathis weighed 220 for one fight and 280 for another...

Stander had rolls of fat on him.

Ramos lost to a guy who Too Tall Jones CRUSHED in 40 seconds.

Daniels wouldn't get within 10,000 miles of a Title Fight today.

If all those weren't worthy at all, than tell me about the worth of Joshua's 19 opponents of out those 21 scalps.

[Cojimar 1946]

Holyfield was the same age in the rematch with Lewis that Norton was against Cooney. He had also been fighting longer and taken more punishment yet he gave Lewis a good fight despite the fact that Lewis was a massive hitter probably in the same league as Cooney or even beyond in addition to being a better overall fighter.

My position has never been that Norton and Lyle were prime (they weren't) just that heavyweights at that stage in their career generally do not get demolished by guys they would have beaten in their primes. They were both in their late 30s and both Lyle and Norton seem to have started a noticeable decline around 1978/1979. The fights with Cooney suggest that neither Norton or Lyle would be able to absorb Cooney's punches prime for prime so the question is whether they can avoid his punches long enough to take Cooney out first. McCall and Vitali are other examples of guys chins who held up fine into their late 30s and even 40s.

[Kalan]

Norton was easier to hit than Holyfield and got smashed by punchers... Kenny was a little uncoordinated.

[Kalan]

Frazier never fought anyone as big as AJ, because in his time there was no such big boxers. Frazier had fought with bigger fighters than him for plenty of times and he had no problems with coming inside. Only Foreman was his kinda antidote for him. And how can you compare Whyte's power with Frazier's? Frazier was very special in closing the distance, he would have definitely landed on Joshua. And AJ wouldn't be able to take Joe's left hook, Joe wasn't some Whyte.

You're right there... Whyte doesn't load up left hooks and get knocked into the ring lights by a guy weighing 217.

Club footed 203-pound Bonavena floored Frazier twice... Anyone over 200 pounds who could punch hard floored Frazier... The bums Frazier fought wouldn't get within a million miles of a Title Fight today... Zyglwitz... Daniels.... Ramos... Stander... Blubber Mathis... Ellis was no bum, but he fought most of his career as a Middleweight... Quarry ate punches and didn't train... Chuvalo was a punching bag who couldn't beat Pete Rademacher... Light Heavyweight Bob Foster??? GTFO

Zyglewitz lost to tomato cans with losing records..

Blubber Mathis weighed 220 for one fight and 280 for another...

Stander had rolls of fat on him.

Ramos lost to a guy who Too Tall Jones CRUSHED in 40 seconds.

Daniels wouldn't get within 10,000 miles of a Title Fight today.

If all those weren't worthy at all, than tell me about the worth of Joshua's 19 opponents of out those 21 scalps.

A few of the more significant Heavyweights who Joshua has vanquished would be:

Joseph Parker was a 6’4” X 236 undefeated Heavyweight Champion 24-0 who beat undefeated challengers…

Wladimir Klitschko wa a 6’6” X 240 ATG Heavyweight Champion 64-4 who beat many World Champions

Charles Martin was a 6’5” X 245 undefeated Heavyweight Champion 25-1-1 who beat Vyacheslav Glazkov, 21-1-1

Dillian Whyte is a 6’4” X 250 Heavyweight with a 23-1 record. He iced Heavyweight Champion Lucas Brown, 25-0

Dominic Breazeale is a 6’7” X 255 Heavyweight with a 19-1 record. He blasted out tough Izuagbe Ugonoh 17-0

Taken together those 5 opponents have 155 wins and 4 of them lost only lost to Joshua. Joshua came through those fights without a lot of damage and will probably fight until he’s 40 while suffering little or no damage.

Most of Joe Frazier's challengers stunk... Ali and Foreman were good--but they were hittable guys who didn’t duck punches well.... Joe looked like a punching bag versus Foreman and lost his trilogy to Ali – getting his head pounded in.

[DrDuke]

You're right there... Whyte doesn't load up left hooks and get knocked into the ring lights by a guy weighing 217.

Club footed 203-pound Bonavena floored Frazier twice... Anyone over 200 pounds who could punch hard floored Frazier... The bums Frazier fought wouldn't get within a million miles of a Title Fight today... Zyglwitz... Daniels.... Ramos... Stander... Blubber Mathis... Ellis was no bum, but he fought most of his career as a Middleweight... Quarry ate punches and didn't train... Chuvalo was a punching bag who couldn't beat Pete Rademacher... Light Heavyweight Bob Foster??? GTFO

Zyglewitz lost to tomato cans with losing records..

Blubber Mathis weighed 220 for one fight and 280 for another...

Stander had rolls of fat on him.

Ramos lost to a guy who Too Tall Jones CRUSHED in 40 seconds.

Daniels wouldn't get within 10,000 miles of a Title Fight today.

If all those weren't worthy at all, than tell me about the worth of Joshua's 19 opponents of out those 21 scalps.

A few of the more significant Heavyweights who Joshua has vanquished would be:

Joseph Parker was a 6’4” X 236 undefeated Heavyweight Champion 24-0 who beat undefeated challengers…

Wladimir Klitschko wa a 6’6” X 240 ATG Heavyweight Champion 64-4 who beat many World Champions

Charles Martin was a 6’5” X 245 undefeated Heavyweight Champion 25-1-1 who beat Vyacheslav Glazkov, 21-1-1

Dillian Whyte is a 6’4” X 250 Heavyweight with a 23-1 record. He iced Heavyweight Champion Lucas Brown, 25-0

Dominic Breazeale is a 6’7” X 255 Heavyweight with a 19-1 record. He blasted out tough Izuagbe Ugonoh 17-0

Taken together those 5 opponents have 155 wins and 4 of them lost only lost to Joshua. Joshua came through those fights without a lot of damage and will probably fight until he’s 40 while suffering little or no damage.

Most of Joe Frazier's challengers stunk... Ali and Foreman were good--but they were hittable guys who didn’t duck punches well.... Joe looked like a punching bag versus Foreman and lost his trilogy to Ali – getting his head pounded in.

You've told only good moments about all those guys, while you've told only bad moments about Frazier's opponents. The thing is, both Frazier's and Joshua's opponents had both good and bad moments in their careers.

How about Parker knocking out bums all the way and having disputable performances on the top level?

How about Martin fighting bums and getting the title because of opponent's injury?

How about Whyte having no better opposition, near losing to Chisora?

How about Breazeale being troubled by Ugonoh before managing to win?

And how all those sizes mentioned have affect on a class?

You see only those things, what you biased mind allows you to see.

[Ambling Alp II]

s

I don't think Foreman would do well in the current era. Foreman didn't have great defense and was used to being the bigger, stronger man. I don't think Foreman would enjoy being the smaller, weaker man in the ring. It's doubtful Foreman's power would have the same impact against the big men of today that it had back in the 70s. What happens when Joshua starts landing on Foreman? Foreman has never faced a puncher of Joshua's calibre. He was badly hurt and nearly stopped by Lyle.

He still beat Lyle. Being shorter and lighter doesn't necessarily make him weaker. He would do just fine today with little comp. He surely doesn't get stretched out by the guys that clubbed Wlad. But point taken. Joshua appears really strong. Being 1-2 inches shorter and 15-20 pounds lighter than many if these guys wouldn't keep him from wrecking them.

Well many people think the best guy in this era. (It is hard to tell since they all seem to be afraid to actually fight each other.)
Joshua barely got by an ancient Klitschko. That indicates that Joshua would not have not gotton by a prime Klitschko.

27 year old Klitschko got crushed in two rounds by 37 year old Corrie Sanders.
Corrie Sanders fought all through the 1990s but was not even a contender in the 1990s.
Klitschko also got stopped by Puritty, who also fought in the 1990s but was never a contender.
This strongly indicates Klitschko was not as good as many fighters from the 1990s.
Also indicates that Joshua would not have been either since he is not even as good as Klitschko.
Of course this also means that the heavyweight division the last 15-20 years has really sucked.

[Kalan]

The above is the biggest load of crap imaginable... Klitschko didn't reach his prime years until his 30's... He had very poor coaching up to that point---but more potential than any other Heavyweight on the planet according to Steward.

ATG 4-Division World Champion Roy Jones was a commentator for the Joshua-Klitschko fight... Jones stated that Klitschko fought the best fight of his entire career, even though he was 41.... Klitschko had massive holes in his defense in his 20's which a tall devastating southpaw puncher like Sanders could exploit... Once Wladimir was with Emmanuel Steward for 2 years he closed up all the defensive holes up tight - and was much better than any boxer of the 90's.

Different boxers peak at different ages - which is a really difficult concept for some lame brained individuals to grasp... Once he reached his zenith in skills Wladimir would have murdered anyone from the 1990's.

Wladimir took a minimum of punishment in 69 fights and he's fine.... Ali and Frazier were so hittable they beaten to trash.

one thing most people forget is styles make fights... Puritty had 26 pounds on Wladimir and was losing every round to Wlad by a wide margin until Wlad ran out of gas late like Sugar Ray Robinson did against Joey Maxim... Wladimir was weak and underweight from the flu at 224... He never weighed within 10 pounds of being that light in any future fights...

Both Wladimir and Steward stated with dead certainty that Wlad was drugged before the 1st Brewster fight... Wlad was winning the fight easily when he lost strength and couldn't even stand early in the fight... Million of dollars in betting money came in on massive underdog Brewster just before the fight.

Sanders' unusual southpaw left drove right through a hole in Wlad's defense... Styles make fights... Ray Mercer was a much better fighter than Sanders, but earlier in Wlad's career Mercer could barely touch Wladimir with a power punch while getting hammered out for the 1st time in his career... Wladimir decked Mercer with a left hook to the head and easily pounded him into a one sided stoppage -- sweeping all rounds.. Many thought Mercer beat Lewis in their tough fight.

[MrGuy]

The above is the biggest load of crap imaginable... Klitschko didn't reach his prime years until his 30's... He had very poor coaching up to that point---but more potential than any other Heavyweight on the planet according to Steward.

ATG 4-Division World Champion Roy Jones was a commentator for the Joshua-Klitschko fight... Jones stated that Klitschko fought the best fight of his entire career, even though he was 41.... Klitschko had massive holes in his defense in his 20's which a tall devastating southpaw puncher like Sanders could exploit... Once Wladimir was with Emmanuel Steward for 2 years he closed up all the defensive holes up tight - and was much better than any boxer of the 90's.

Different boxers peak at different ages - which is a really difficult concept for some lame brained individuals to grasp... Once he reached his zenith in skills Wladimir would have murdered anyone from the 1990's.

Wladimir took a minimum of punishment in 69 fights and he's fine.... Ali and Frazier were so hittable they beaten to trash.

Virtually no boxer is at their best in their 30s. Their are exceptions. He wasn't one. He just upped the clinch ante. No to mention fought even worse comp.

[fanman]

its so unfair to compare eras, each fighter grew up and trained to beat the opposition around at the time.

as to the op, liston had flaws, a little stiff and slow, maybe a bit of a bully at heart, but a good boxer with huge power.
if joshua's as good as he looks he'd possibly have the size, skill, and power to take out liston.
then again if liston clipped josh with a hook and he gassed out like v vlad he'd be dead.

it's all a guessing game, joshua may get ko'd numerous times in his career or might go undefeated ... in this fantasy matchup id go for joshua to win by ko 10.

[APerno]

Wladimir took a minimum of punishment in 69 fights and he's fine.... Ali and Frazier were so hittable they beaten to trash.

or, maybe they just fought tougher opponents.

[MrGuy]

Wladimir took a minimum of punishment in 69 fights and he's fine.... Ali and Frazier were so hittable they beaten to trash.

or, maybe they just fought tougher opponents.

[Kalan]

Wladimir took a minimum of punishment in 69 fights and he's fine.... Ali and Frazier were so hittable they beaten to trash.

or, maybe they just fought tougher opponents.

And maybe that's just biased Americans claiming sour grapes... Wladimir improved throughout his career... Ali and Frazier could have but they just lacked the dedication and frequently got fat... Ali got worse instead of better.

[gilgamesh]

Wladimir took a minimum of punishment in 69 fights and he's fine.... Ali and Frazier were so hittable they beaten to trash.

or, maybe they just fought tougher opponents.

[Kalan]

its so unfair to compare eras, each fighter grew up and trained to beat the opposition around at the time.

as to the op, liston had flaws, a little stiff and slow, maybe a bit of a bully at heart, but a good boxer with huge power.
if joshua's as good as he looks he'd possibly have the size, skill, and power to take out liston.
then again if liston clipped josh with a hook and he gassed out like v vlad he'd be dead.

it's all a guessing game, joshua may get ko'd numerous times in his career or might go undefeated ... in this fantasy matchup id go for joshua to win by ko 10.

Liston didn't look slow versus Patterson - who was supposed to have blazing speed - the fastest Heavyweight up to his time. He had a massive size and strength advantage over Patterson - about what Joshua would have on Liston... Joshua would smash Liston the way Liston overpowered the much smaller Patterson.

If you look at Joshua's form... who's going to knock him out until Dubois comes up??? ... And I don't think that will happen cuz Joshua will keep getting better... DD and AJ will probably have a bunch of fights by the time 2028 rolls around.

[gilgamesh]

its so unfair to compare eras, each fighter grew up and trained to beat the opposition around at the time.

as to the op, liston had flaws, a little stiff and slow, maybe a bit of a bully at heart, but a good boxer with huge power.
if joshua's as good as he looks he'd possibly have the size, skill, and power to take out liston.
then again if liston clipped josh with a hook and he gassed out like v vlad he'd be dead.

it's all a guessing game, joshua may get ko'd numerous times in his career or might go undefeated ... in this fantasy matchup id go for joshua to win by ko 10.

Liston didn't look slow versus Patterson - who was supposed to have blazing speed - the fastest Heavyweight up to his time. He had a massive size and strength advantage over Patterson - about what Joshua would have on Liston... Joshua would smash Liston the way Liston overpowered the much smaller Patterson.

If you look at Joshua's form... who's going to knock him out until Dubois comes up??? ... And I don't think that will happen cuz Joshua will keep getting better... DD and AJ will probably have a bunch of fights by the time 2028 rolls around.

Dubois and AJ both will have been beaten, probably more than once each by the time 2028 rolls around. 10 years is a LONG TIME in Boxing.

[Cojimar 1946]

First of all Joshua did beat Klitschko, second Joshua is still improving and gaining experience. I don't think a prime Klitschko could beat the current Joshua. As far as using Corrie Sanders as a gauge of the era it's worth noting that Hasim Rahman and Vitali Klitschko are both from the same era as Wladimir Klitschko (Rahman turned pro in 1994 and Vitali Klitschko in 1996) and they both beat Sanders. So clearly there are guys from Klitschko's era who can beat Sanders because two of them actually managed to pull the feat off. Maybe Wladimir had some sort of stylistic issue with Sanders but using him to claim the era sucked is clearly nonsense otherwise he would have repeated his success against these two guys.

Also, the best 90s heavyweight was knocked out by someone from Wladimir's era who barely even rates in the top 10 and who lost in his prime to Oleg Maskaev and John Ruiz.

The problem for someone like Foreman is he was not particularly hard to hit. Joshua clearly hits hard and has demonstrated his power against guys like Kevin Johnson and Dillian Whyte who have shown themselves to be durable and difficult to stop. Joshua is almost certainly the biggest hitter Foreman has faced and also possesses advantages in size, strength and reach.

[Kalan]

Wladimir took a minimum of punishment in 69 fights and he's fine.... Ali and Frazier were so hittable they beaten to trash.

or, maybe they just fought tougher opponents.

And maybe that's just a pack certified BS.... Take a close look at Ali and Frazier's super stinky opponents:

Zyglewitz.. Dainels.. Stander.. Coopman.. Evangelista.. Wepner.. Ramos.. Blubber Mathis.. Lubbers.. Blinn.. Dunn.. Neon Leon.. London.. Mildenbooger.. all stink worse than anyone Klitschko, Joshua, or even Wilder fought as champ.. Ali and Frazier specialized in fighting some of the weakest and worst opponents Heavyweight Champions ever faced.

[Kalan]

Dubois and AJ both will have been beaten, probably more than once each by the time 2028 rolls around.

Ali, Frazier, and Foreman all got hammered....doesn't mean it will happen to Joshua... Wlad went unbeaten for 11 yrs.

[gilgamesh]

or, maybe they just fought tougher opponents.

And maybe that's just a pack certified BS.... Take a close look at Ali and Frazier's super stinky opponents:

Zyglewitz.. Dainels.. Stander.. Coopman.. Evangelista.. Wepner.. Ramos.. Blubber Mathis.. Lubbers.. Blinn.. Dunn.. Neon Leon.. London.. Mildenbooger.. all stink worse than anyone Klitschko, Joshua, or even Wilder fought as champ.. Ali and Frazier specialized in fighting some of the weakest and worst opponents Heavyweight Champions ever faced.

Newsflash: You're not telling me anything about Ali, Frazier or anyone else that I don't already know.

I know according to you every Athlete today is better than every Athlete of Yesterday. Some people can't go along with that kinda thinking. You're free to keep on thinking AJ is an invincible God though.

[Kalan]

And maybe that's just a pack certified BS.... Take a close look at Ali and Frazier's super stinky opponents:

Zyglewitz.. Dainels.. Stander.. Coopman.. Evangelista.. Wepner.. Ramos.. Blubber Mathis.. Lubbers.. Blinn.. Dunn.. Neon Leon.. London.. Mildenbooger.. all stink worse than anyone Klitschko, Joshua, or even Wilder fought as champ.. Ali and Frazier specialized in fighting some of the weakest and worst opponents Heavyweight Champions ever faced.

Newsflash: You're not telling me anything about Ali, Frazier or anyone else that I don't already know.

I know according to you every Athlete today is better than every Athlete of Yesterday. Some people can't go along with that kinda thinking. You're free to keep on thinking AJ is an invincible God though.

Newsflash: STOP putting words in my mouth lad... I NEVER say that every athlete today is better than every athlete yesterday. World records aren't broken every minute. Some last 20 or 30 years .. In 5000 years world records will rarely be broken at all unless we start measuring them in nanoseconds... Some day the human race will reach its athletic potential... At some distant point we'll reach our scientific potential if we don't destroy ourselves first... There's a limit to the places science can take us - a time where everything that can possibly be invented will have already been invented.

I haven't seen another Basketball player as good as Wilt Chamberlain... It could be 100 years before there's another player who can score 100 points in a game and dominate on both ends of the court.

Jack Johnson may have been better than anybody up to Larry Holmes... Holmes may have been better than anybody up til the Klitschko Bros... Tyson ran over Holmes like a truck runs over an egg carton - does that make him better? A better question might be if you lined up 10 ATG Heavyweights who could beat more of them, Holmes or Tyson?

BTW... I never said Joshua was an invincible God either. He's a human being so he could be beaten any time... But look at his current form compared to Heavyweights we've seen to date... Like Usain Bolt, he's the best we've seen so far.

[gilgamesh]

You never said it, but you might as wel have.. AJ beats every Heavyweight that ever lived from what I can tell as far as you're concerned. I've never seen you pick against him or even suggest anybody could beat him until Dubois in this thread.

[MrGuy]

Frazier never fought anyone as big as AJ, because in his time there was no such big boxers. Frazier had fought with bigger fighters than him for plenty of times and he had no problems with coming inside. Only Foreman was his kinda antidote for him. And how can you compare Whyte's power with Frazier's? Frazier was very special in closing the distance, he would have definitely landed on Joshua. And AJ wouldn't be able to take Joe's left hook, Joe wasn't some Whyte.

You're right there... Whyte doesn't load up left hooks and get knocked into the ring lights by a guy weighing 217.

Club footed 203-pound Bonavena floored Frazier twice... Anyone over 200 pounds who could punch hard floored Frazier... The bums Frazier fought wouldn't get within a million miles of a Title Fight today... Zyglwitz... Daniels.... Ramos... Stander... Blubber Mathis... Ellis was no bum, but he fought most of his career as a Middleweight... Quarry ate punches and didn't train... Chuvalo was a punching bag who couldn't beat Pete Rademacher... Light Heavyweight Bob Foster??? GTFO

Zyglewitz lost to tomato cans with losing records..

Blubber Mathis weighed 220 for one fight and 280 for another...

Stander had rolls of fat on him.

Ramos lost to a guy who Too Tall Jones CRUSHED in 40 seconds.

Daniels wouldn't get within 10,000 miles of a Title Fight today.

Whyte wouldve been in those lights against prime Foreman or Tyson. Top guys from that era fought each other. Stander types were an every defense thing from Wlad up to now.