Rocky Marciano vs Deontay Wilder

[Controversial]

And Wilder was about 2 stones smaller than Fury and most of the other guys that he beat leading up to it.
Mavrovic was about two stones smaller than Lewis.

It's not about the weight, it's about what you can do.

Of course but Wilder isn't 5'9"/5"10" with a 67"/68" reach. When all physical attributes plus speed, power and weight are against you it makes it a very difficult fight.

If sheer size and weight made no difference do you think Fury would have been as successful against Wilder, i.e. Fury was the same size and weight as Marciano? Of course not, his size helped him fight the fight he did, without it he would've been splattered in quick time.

If Fury was the same size and Marciano, but still had the exact same ability as he does now? Same speed, power, defense, chin, punching accuracy etc. ? I would say he would have fought to a draw against Wilder.

Speed power, and weight are against Marciano?
I will take these one at a time:
Speed? huh? How is Wilder faster than Marciano? I don't see how you come to this conclusion. Marciano was clearly faster.
Power? Well, we have one fight to base Wilder's power on. He didn't stop his man. So you should not automatically assume that Wilder has a power advantage.
Weight? Yes. And that by itself means nothing.

How do you work that out? Wilder couldn’t reach him most of the time because Fury could lean and move out of reach. Wilder even admitting he was overreaching. If Fury was Marcianos height he wouldn’t be able to get out the way so easily and wouldn’t be out of range. So basically every HW in history could be shrunk to Rocky’s size and be just as successful? What utter crap.

[Ambling Alp II]

If Fury was smaller, he would be a smaller target. He would fight a different strategy; he would try to get inside.
You keep thinking that height and reach is an automatic advantage and never has a disadvantage. That is is not the case.

First, not everyone is a expert at using reach. Even the great Tyson Furry is not really that brilliant at it.

Second, your opponent is going to get inside sometimes, if even you are great at using your reach. A fighter with long arms is at a disadvantage when fighting inside. It's easier if your arms are shorter to throw punches inside. Very few tall fighters are great at fighting inside; of course there are exceptions.

Third, if you are tall and have a long torso, you are a bigger target to get hit in the inside.

You also keep looking at it as what Marciano would be up against. You also have to consider what Wilder would be up against. He would fighting someone that throws about 3x as many punches as he is used to. That is a big deal. He would have to adapt to the pace of that. And that would be round after round. Marciano does not let up.
He would be going against that is a lot faster than what he is used to. He would have to adapt to that.
He would have a much smaller target to hit than what he is used to. He would have to adapt tot that.

Anyway, you keep dismissing Marciano's "skill set". I have asked a couple of times what Dempsey could do so much better than Marciano could do, and you never answered that.

[oogiebe]

If Fury was smaller, he would be a smaller target. He would fight a different strategy; he would try to get inside.
You keep thinking that height and reach is an automatic advantage and never has a disadvantage. That is is not the case.

First, not everyone is a expert at using reach. Even the great Tyson Furry is not really that brilliant at it.

Second, your opponent is going to get inside sometimes, if even you are great at using your reach. A fighter with long arms is at a disadvantage when fighting inside. It's easier if your arms are shorter to throw punches inside. Very few tall fighters are great at fighting inside; of course there are exceptions.

Third, if you are tall and have a long torso, you are a bigger target to get hit in the inside.

You also keep looking at it as what Marciano would be up against. You also have to consider what Wilder would be up against. He would fighting someone that throws about 3x as many punches as he is used to. That is a big deal. He would have to adapt to the pace of that. And that would be round after round. Marciano does not let up.
He would be going against that is a lot faster than what he is used to. He would have to adapt to that.
He would have a much smaller target to hit than what he is used to. He would have to adapt tot that.

Anyway, you keep dismissing Marciano's "skill set". I have asked a couple of times what Dempsey could do so much better than Marciano could do, and you never answered that.

Rambling Alp

[Ambling Alp II]

Good one.
I listed things point by point. You might not like it, but that isn't rambling.

[oogiebe]

Good one.
I listed things point by point. You might not like it, but that isn't rambling.

Good points, although I don't agree. Just that your posts are longer than I prefer.

[Cojimar 1946]

Wladimir Klitschko would simply clinch when his opponents tried to get inside, he seemed very successful at preventing his opponents from fighting close up. Perhaps Wilder could do the same if he didn't want to engage at close range.

[Ambling Alp II]

Good one.
I listed things point by point. You might not like it, but that isn't rambling.

Good points, although I don't agree. Just that your posts are longer than I prefer.

Sorry if that last post was too long. I don't think on average my posts are longer than the average person's.

[oogiebe]

Good one.
I listed things point by point. You might not like it, but that isn't rambling.

Good points, although I don't agree. Just that your posts are longer than I prefer.

Sorry if that last post was too long. I don't think on average my posts are longer than the average person's.

There are others too that get too paragraphical for me. I like to read and move on.

[Controversial]

If Fury was smaller, he would be a smaller target. He would fight a different strategy; he would try to get inside.
You keep thinking that height and reach is an automatic advantage and never has a disadvantage. That is is not the case.

First, not everyone is a expert at using reach. Even the great Tyson Furry is not really that brilliant at it.

Second, your opponent is going to get inside sometimes, if even you are great at using your reach. A fighter with long arms is at a disadvantage when fighting inside. It's easier if your arms are shorter to throw punches inside. Very few tall fighters are great at fighting inside; of course there are exceptions.

Third, if you are tall and have a long torso, you are a bigger target to get hit in the inside.

You also keep looking at it as what Marciano would be up against. You also have to consider what Wilder would be up against. He would fighting someone that throws about 3x as many punches as he is used to. That is a big deal. He would have to adapt to the pace of that. And that would be round after round. Marciano does not let up.
He would be going against that is a lot faster than what he is used to. He would have to adapt to that.
He would have a much smaller target to hit than what he is used to. He would have to adapt tot that.

Anyway, you keep dismissing Marciano's "skill set". I have asked a couple of times what Dempsey could do so much better than Marciano could do, and you never answered that.

I don't see the point in going around in circles, you think you're right, I think I'm right. Agree to disagree.

[Ambling Alp II]

Agreed.

[Cojimar 1946]

Many of the guys competing at heavyweight are big but it seems like there has been plenty of talent at light heavyweight and cruiserweight in recent years. If the giants at heavyweight were comparable to the giant heavyweights of past eras I would expect more talented cruiserweights to move up in weight given all the money they could make. Gomez, Adamek, Haye, and Cunningham all tried moving up and came up short.

[Controversial]

Many of the guys competing at heavyweight are big but it seems like there has been plenty of talent at light heavyweight and cruiserweight in recent years. If the giants at heavyweight were comparable to the giant heavyweights of past eras I would expect more talented cruiserweights to move up in weight given all the money they could make. Gomez, Adamek, Haye, and Cunningham all tried moving up and came up short.

Wilder has apparently said he wants to come in at 245lbs (17 stone 5lbs) for the rematch. The highest he has ever weighed so far as a pro is 229lbs (16 stone 3lbs). So 245 will be about 2 and a half stone heavier than he weighed in their first fight (15 stone 1lb). I wonder why he wants to do that?

[Duran1970]

If anyone puts any stock in Teddy Atlas' opinion, YouTube " Deontay Wilder got exposed in Tyson Fury draw , teddy atlas, first take....touches on a few Wilder/rocky points

[Cojimar 1946]

I don't know if putting on that much weight is a good idea for Wilder, it might make sense to come in heavier but 245 could be too heavy for him.

[Controversial]

I don't know if putting on that much weight is a good idea for Wilder, it might make sense to come in heavier but 245 could be too heavy for him.

Possibly but the fact he’s looking to add a significant amount of weight speaks volumes. I can’t remember where I read it now, maybe it was a video, but Wilder made a comment about Fury after their fight that Fury had ‘big man strength’ (or something along those lines). I doubt Wilder would come in light versus AJ either, AJ would push him around like a rag doll. But apparently weight is irrelevant.