BoxRec

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑14 Sep 2024, 15:18 Even if Tyson and Lewis competition was better which frankly I doubt this hardly would prove they are better than Fury and Usyk given neither lost to their competition while Tyson and Lewis both have multiple losses.

Having poor competition would it be a much stronger argument had Fury and Usyk lost to the supposedly inferior opponents but that didn't happen.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑16 Sep 2024, 19:26

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑14 Sep 2024, 15:18 Even if Tyson and Lewis competition was better which frankly I doubt this hardly would prove they are better than Fury and Usyk given neither lost to their competition while Tyson and Lewis both have multiple losses.

Having poor competition would it be a much stronger argument had Fury and Usyk lost to the supposedly inferior opponents but that didn't happen.

"Supposedly inferior opponents? Seriously?

Wilder is the only fighter that fury beat is even worth mentioning. Fury had a draw with Wilder. He did absolutely nothing in that fight. Got decked twice. Was lucky to get that draw. Wllder had a big punch and absolutely nothing else. Tyson and Lewis beat many fighters better than Wilder.
Fury got decked and almost lost to fighter making his pro debut.

Usyk barely beat Joshua and Fury. He fights literally once a year.
One fight in 2019
one fight in 2020
one fight in 2021
one fight in 2022
one fight in 2023

How impressive.

Is it really that surprising that he had not lost?

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑17 Sep 2024, 17:45

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑16 Sep 2024, 19:26

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑14 Sep 2024, 15:18 Even if Tyson and Lewis competition was better which frankly I doubt this hardly would prove they are better than Fury and Usyk given neither lost to their competition while Tyson and Lewis both have multiple losses.

Having poor competition would it be a much stronger argument had Fury and Usyk lost to the supposedly inferior opponents but that didn't happen.

"Supposedly inferior opponents? Seriously?

Wilder is the only fighter that fury beat is even worth mentioning. Fury had a draw with Wilder. He did absolutely nothing in that fight. Got decked twice. Was lucky to get that draw. Wllder had a big punch and absolutely nothing else. Tyson and Lewis beat many fighters better than Wilder.
Fury got decked and almost lost to fighter making his pro debut.

Usyk barely beat Joshua and Fury. He fights literally once a year.
One fight in 2019
one fight in 2020
one fight in 2021
one fight in 2022
one fight in 2023

How impressive.

Is it really that surprising that he had not lost?

Fury also has wins over Chisora, Wlad, Wallin, and Whyte some of whom are reasonably skilled. Wlad's probably his best win despite being past it. Most people had Usyk clearly beating Joshua/Fury along the lines of 8-4. They are not considered controversial and he was seemingly past it by the time of the Dubois/Fury fights.

given Lewis lost to McCall and Rahman why couldn't he lose to Joshua or even Wilder and Chisora? You have a difficult time making a case that Rahman is better than Joshua/Wilder given he lost to Maskaev and Ruiz. So Fury and Usyk deserve credit for not losing to opponents at that level. The 80s heavyweights Tyson fought were widely viewed as terrible at the time. They were incredibly inconsistent, high on drugs much of the time, and frequently came into fights horribly out of shape. It's revisionism on your part to claim it was a good/great era when people at the time had such a low opinion of the division.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Sep 2024, 05:30

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑17 Sep 2024, 17:45

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑16 Sep 2024, 19:26


"Supposedly inferior opponents? Seriously?

Wilder is the only fighter that fury beat is even worth mentioning. Fury had a draw with Wilder. He did absolutely nothing in that fight. Got decked twice. Was lucky to get that draw. Wllder had a big punch and absolutely nothing else. Tyson and Lewis beat many fighters better than Wilder.
Fury got decked and almost lost to fighter making his pro debut.

Usyk barely beat Joshua and Fury. He fights literally once a year.
One fight in 2019
one fight in 2020
one fight in 2021
one fight in 2022
one fight in 2023

How impressive.

Is it really that surprising that he had not lost?

Fury also has wins over Chisora, Wlad, Wallin, and Whyte some of whom are reasonably skilled. Wlad's probably his best win despite being past it. Most people had Usyk clearly beating Joshua/Fury along the lines of 8-4. They are not considered controversial and he was seemingly past it by the time of the Dubois/Fury fights.

given Lewis lost to McCall and Rahman why couldn't he lose to Joshua or even Wilder and Chisora? You have a difficult time making a case that Rahman is better than Joshua/Wilder given he lost to Maskaev and Ruiz. So Fury and Usyk deserve credit for not losing to opponents at that level. The 80s heavyweights Tyson fought were widely viewed as terrible at the time. They were incredibly inconsistent, high on drugs much of the time, and frequently came into fights horribly out of shape. It's revisionism on your part to claim it was a good/great era when people at the time had such a low opinion of the division.

You're listing Chisora, Wallin and Whyte? *INSERT SOUND OF A BARRELL BEING SCRAPED HERE*

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑18 Sep 2024, 18:20

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Sep 2024, 05:30

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑17 Sep 2024, 17:45

Fury also has wins over Chisora, Wlad, Wallin, and Whyte some of whom are reasonably skilled. Wlad's probably his best win despite being past it. Most people had Usyk clearly beating Joshua/Fury along the lines of 8-4. They are not considered controversial and he was seemingly past it by the time of the Dubois/Fury fights.

given Lewis lost to McCall and Rahman why couldn't he lose to Joshua or even Wilder and Chisora? You have a difficult time making a case that Rahman is better than Joshua/Wilder given he lost to Maskaev and Ruiz. So Fury and Usyk deserve credit for not losing to opponents at that level. The 80s heavyweights Tyson fought were widely viewed as terrible at the time. They were incredibly inconsistent, high on drugs much of the time, and frequently came into fights horribly out of shape. It's revisionism on your part to claim it was a good/great era when people at the time had such a low opinion of the division.

You're listing Chisora, Wallin and Whyte? *INSERT SOUND OF A BARRELL BEING SCRAPED HERE*

Whyte has a better resume than a number of Tyson opponents including Ruddock and Williams. Tyson fans aren't really in a position to denigrate a win over someone like that given how little so many Tyson victims accomplished.
Ruddock is considered a big win for Tyson despite his reputation being based entirely on beating faded former contenders.

If people want to rate Tyson over Fury that's fine given its unclear Fury was ever the best heavyweight in the world and his shallow resume but he lacks the embarrassing losses that Tyson has.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑19 Sep 2024, 06:40

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑18 Sep 2024, 18:20

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Sep 2024, 05:30


You're listing Chisora, Wallin and Whyte? *INSERT SOUND OF A BARRELL BEING SCRAPED HERE*

Whyte has a better resume than a number of Tyson opponents including Ruddock and Williams. Tyson fans aren't really in a position to denigrate a win over someone like that given how little so many Tyson victims accomplished.
Ruddock is considered a big win for Tyson despite his reputation being based entirely on beating faded former contenders.

If people want to rate Tyson over Fury that's fine given its unclear Fury was ever the best heavyweight in the world and his shallow resume but he lacks the embarrassing losses that Tyson has.

And Mike Tyson has a lot of opponents with a better resume than Whyte. Michael Spinks and Larry Holmes for example. If you're gonna argue that Whyte's resume is better than those two hall of famers, you're an idiot.

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑19 Sep 2024, 13:20

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑19 Sep 2024, 06:40

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑18 Sep 2024, 18:20

Whyte has a better resume than a number of Tyson opponents including Ruddock and Williams. Tyson fans aren't really in a position to denigrate a win over someone like that given how little so many Tyson victims accomplished.
Ruddock is considered a big win for Tyson despite his reputation being based entirely on beating faded former contenders.

If people want to rate Tyson over Fury that's fine given its unclear Fury was ever the best heavyweight in the world and his shallow resume but he lacks the embarrassing losses that Tyson has.

And Mike Tyson has a lot of opponents with a better resume than Whyte. Michael Spinks and Larry Holmes for example. If you're gonna argue that Whyte's resume is better than those two hall of famers, you're an idiot.

Larry Holmes was 38 and years removed from his prime, pretty desperate to hype that as a big win for Mike. Many had him losing to Carl Williams years prior. A prime AJ should decisively beat that Holmes and guys like Chisora have a good chance given the succcess of Williams.

Wilder and Wlad are probably as good as anybody Tyson beat

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑19 Sep 2024, 16:31

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑19 Sep 2024, 13:20

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑19 Sep 2024, 06:40

And Mike Tyson has a lot of opponents with a better resume than Whyte. Michael Spinks and Larry Holmes for example. If you're gonna argue that Whyte's resume is better than those two hall of famers, you're an idiot.

Larry Holmes was 38 and years removed from his prime, pretty desperate to hype that as a big win for Mike. Many had him losing to Carl Williams years prior. A prime AJ should decisively beat that Holmes and guys like Chisora have a good chance given the succcess of Williams.

Wilder and Wlad are probably as good as anybody Tyson beat

Please don't use the words, Chisora, good chance and Holmes in the same sentence again, it's beneath you. Tyson beat Larry Holmes, the same Larry Holmes that was still fresh enough to beat a then unbeaten, Olympic champion, Ray Mercer four years later. Larry Holmes was 38 when Tyson beat him and only had two close decision losses against a Hall of Famer. When Fury beat Wladimir Klitschko, Wlad was 39 and had three stoppage losses to guys who's only chance of getting in to the Hall of Fame is paying the $15.50 admission fee.

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 02:57 If you think the division sucks now how can you claim the 1990s were a strong era given a 45 year old Foreman (who lost to tommy morrison) and Moorer became undisputed champs. That doesn't make a lot of sense.
Are you saying that if Chisora beat Fury to become undisputed champ and Chisora than lost to a 42 year old Luis Ortiz that wouldn't reflect poorly on this era even a little bit? You'd never bring it up to criticize the era as a whole?

What would have to happen for an era to be good or bad in your book?

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 02:57 If you think the division sucks now how can you claim the 1990s were a strong era given a 45 year old Foreman (who lost to tommy morrison) and Moorer became undisputed champs. That doesn't make a lot of sense.
Are you saying that if Chisora beat Fury to become undisputed champ and Chisora than lost to a 42 year old Luis Ortiz that wouldn't reflect poorly on this era even a little bit? You'd never bring it up to criticize the era as a whole?

What would have to happen for an era to be good or bad in your book?

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 02:57 If you think the division sucks now how can you claim the 1990s were a strong era

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 14:46

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 02:57 If you think the division sucks now how can you claim the 1990s were a strong era given a 45 year old Foreman (who lost to tommy morrison) and Moorer became undisputed champs. That doesn't make a lot of sense.
Are you saying that if Chisora beat Fury to become undisputed champ and Chisora than lost to a 42 year old Luis Ortiz that wouldn't reflect poorly on this era even a little bit? You'd never bring it up to criticize the era as a whole?

What would have to happen for an era to be good or bad in your book?

Foreman landed a lucky punch. It happened. One upset doesn't make an era bad. There was a lot od depth. Many good fights. Some great ones. Watch the fights.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 18:49

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 02:57 If you think the division sucks now how can you claim the 1990s were a strong era

Because the then WBC Heavyweight Champion of the world, Tyson Fury got dropped and almost lost to a debutant with zero amateur fights. When did that happen to any top 90's heavyweight? Just name it and I'll concede that you are infinitely more wise than I.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 05:40

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 18:49

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 02:57 If you think the division sucks now how can you claim the 1990s were a strong era

Because the then WBC Heavyweight Champion of the world, Tyson Fury got dropped and almost lost to a debutant with zero amateur fights. When did that happen to any top 90's heavyweight? Just name it and I'll concede that you are infinitely more wise than I.

Cojimar 1946?

Controversial wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 13:16

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 05:40

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑22 Sep 2024, 18:49

Because the then WBC Heavyweight Champion of the world, Tyson Fury got dropped and almost lost to a debutant with zero amateur fights. When did that happen to any top 90's heavyweight? Just name it and I'll concede that you are infinitely more wise than I.

Cojimar 1946?

To be fair it doesn’t mean it couldn’t happen, MMA wasn’t a big thing back in the 90s but I’m sure if a 20 stone Ngannou landed on lots of HWs he’d hurt them. I agree not a good look for Fury but I’d still argue he wasn’t taking that fight too serious.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 13:39

Controversial wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 13:16

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 05:40

Cojimar 1946?

To be fair it doesn’t mean it couldn’t happen, MMA wasn’t a big thing back in the 90s but I’m sure if a 20 stone Ngannou landed on lots of HWs he’d hurt them. I agree not a good look for Fury but I’d still argue he wasn’t taking that fight too serious.

Yeah, but they had debutants. Patterson fought one and stopped him. He was an Olympic champion, which medals has Ngannou got?

Controversial wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 13:50

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 13:39

Controversial wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 13:16

To be fair it doesn’t mean it couldn’t happen, MMA wasn’t a big thing back in the 90s but I’m sure if a 20 stone Ngannou landed on lots of HWs he’d hurt them. I agree not a good look for Fury but I’d still argue he wasn’t taking that fight too serious.

Yeah, but they had debutants. Patterson fought one and stopped him. He was an Olympic champion, which medals has Ngannou got?

None but all I'm saying you don't have to be a "professional" to hurt someone, Ngannou is still trained in combat sport and did box as a kid, add to that he was 20 stone and known for his power. A punch from someone that size will hurt anyone.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 14:45

Controversial wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 13:50

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 13:39

Yeah, but they had debutants. Patterson fought one and stopped him. He was an Olympic champion, which medals has Ngannou got?

None but all I'm saying you don't have to be a "professional" to hurt someone, Ngannou is still trained in combat sport and did box as a kid, add to that he was 20 stone and known for his power. A punch from someone that size will hurt anyone.

You're defending Fury. In the history of heavyweight boxing, no guy at the top of his game has put in such a terrible performance against anyone of that level, ever. You can argue that they didn't fight a debutant with zero amateur experience and you'd be right, but that's my point. The great fighters from history only struggled with actual boxers. When Evander Holyfield got clocked by a cage fighter, at least he had an excuse, he was 58 year old.

Controversial wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 14:54

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 14:45

Controversial wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 13:50

None but all I'm saying you don't have to be a "professional" to hurt someone, Ngannou is still trained in combat sport and did box as a kid, add to that he was 20 stone and known for his power. A punch from someone that size will hurt anyone.

You're defending Fury. In the history of heavyweight boxing, no guy at the top of his game has put in such a terrible performance against anyone of that level, ever. You can argue that they didn't fight a debutant with zero amateur experience and you'd be right, but that's my point. The great fighters from history only struggled with actual boxers. When Evander Holyfield got clocked by a cage fighter, at least he had an excuse, he was 58 year old.

I’m not defending him he looked crap. But I also don’t think he treated it with the same focus as he would a title fight. If Muhammad Ali fought Ngannou how do you expect that to go as he would’ve had massive disadvantages in height, weight and reach and chances of him sparking Ngannou like AJ are quite remote so likely a distance fight. I just don’t think it’s beyond the realms of possibility that if Ngannou landed he would’ve hurt Ali as well.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 14:59

Controversial wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 14:54

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑23 Sep 2024, 14:45

You're defending Fury. In the history of heavyweight boxing, no guy at the top of his game has put in such a terrible performance against anyone of that level, ever. You can argue that they didn't fight a debutant with zero amateur experience and you'd be right, but that's my point. The great fighters from history only struggled with actual boxers. When Evander Holyfield got clocked by a cage fighter, at least he had an excuse, he was 58 year old.

I’m not defending him he looked crap. But I also don’t think he treated it with the same focus as he would a title fight. If Muhammad Ali fought Ngannou how do you expect that to go as he would’ve had massive disadvantages in height, weight and reach and chances of him sparking Ngannou like AJ are quite remote so likely a distance fight. I just don’t think it’s beyond the realms of possibility that if Ngannou landed he would’ve hurt Ali as well.

While Ali was at the top? You're really asking me this question? Height and weight? Ali completely dominated Ron Lyle, who was only an inch shorter. Come on, stop being silly.