BoxRec

JamesPhilips wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 09:59 I really don’t think he’s lagging behind Joshua at all.

I respect you as a poster James, but I have to say this...... Did Joshua just get knocked down and scrape past a 37 year old cage fighter?

jwfg wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 11:17

JamesPhilips wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 09:59 I really don’t think he’s lagging behind Joshua at all.

I respect you as a poster James, but I have to say this...... Did Joshua just get knocked down and scrape past a 37 year old cage fighter?

Tyson Fury didn’t train a day for that. And it’s hugely embarrassing…. but if Joshua didn’t train and was off his PEDs a juiced up fit Ngannou would probably Ko him.

JamesPhilips wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 11:24

jwfg wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 11:17

JamesPhilips wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 09:59 I really don’t think he’s lagging behind Joshua at all.

I respect you as a poster James, but I have to say this...... Did Joshua just get knocked down and scrape past a 37 year old cage fighter?

Tyson Fury didn’t train a day for that. And it’s hugely embarrassing…. but if Joshua didn’t train and was off his PEDs a juiced up fit Ngannou would probably Ko him.

He would've trained as he had a lot of weight to lose but I very much doubt he trained with the same intensity he would have if he were facing Usyk, Wilder etc. When you think something is going to be easy then it's human nature to take your foot of the pedal and look past it.

polecateddy wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 10:28 I stand to be amazed, but doesn’t it defy credibility that Fury is going to be much improved by mid-February? I’m pretty sure if it had been Usyk and not Ngannou in the last fight, it would basically have been the easiest fight of the Ukrainian’s career. And that was after a supposed 12 week training camp, so just how far out of competitive shape Fury has let himself drift must be considerable. Do serious boxing fans expect that he’s got enough time to actually change very much? He’s presumably still in ‘rest and recovery’ mode, so for this to be at all believable instead of enjoying a multi-millionaires Christmas he’s going to be in full Spartan mode instead? Sand dunes, gym, top quality sparring and broccoli, chicken and rice is his world until mid-February is it? It’s a real nonsense!

I do fear you are right. Very few top sportsmen can just turn the tap on and off. And those who can are only able to do it for a limited amount of time.

I truly believe he could have been one of the absolute greats. But think that opportunity has gone. Still had a fantastic career.

I hope Tyson Fury has made sound investments and keeps his money.

JamesPhilips wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 11:24

jwfg wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 11:17

JamesPhilips wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 09:59 I really don’t think he’s lagging behind Joshua at all.

I respect you as a poster James, but I have to say this...... Did Joshua just get knocked down and scrape past a 37 year old cage fighter?

Tyson Fury didn’t train a day for that. And it’s hugely embarrassing…. but if Joshua didn’t train and was off his PEDs a juiced up fit Ngannou would probably Ko him.

But Fury's team are saying that he did train for the Ngannou fight.

big lennox wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 11:43

JamesPhilips wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 11:24

jwfg wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 11:17

I respect you as a poster James, but I have to say this...... Did Joshua just get knocked down and scrape past a 37 year old cage fighter?

Tyson Fury didn’t train a day for that. And it’s hugely embarrassing…. but if Joshua didn’t train and was off his PEDs a juiced up fit Ngannou would probably Ko him.

But Fury's team are saying that he did train for the Ngannou fight.

Yeah, sorry 'didn't train a day' is a load of old bollix.

JamesPhilips wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 11:24

jwfg wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 11:17

JamesPhilips wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 09:59 I really don’t think he’s lagging behind Joshua at all.

I respect you as a poster James, but I have to say this...... Did Joshua just get knocked down and scrape past a 37 year old cage fighter?

Tyson Fury didn’t train a day for that. And it’s hugely embarrassing…. but if Joshua didn’t train and was off his PEDs a juiced up fit Ngannou would probably Ko him.

Fury himself says he had a good camp. Did you have a spy in the Fury camp.

polecateddy wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 10:28 I stand to be amazed, but doesn’t it defy credibility that Fury is going to be much improved by mid-February? I’m pretty sure if it had been Usyk and not Ngannou in the last fight, it would basically have been the easiest fight of the Ukrainian’s career. And that was after a supposed 12 week training camp, so just how far out of competitive shape Fury has let himself drift must be considerable. Do serious boxing fans expect that he’s got enough time to actually change very much? He’s presumably still in ‘rest and recovery’ mode, so for this to be at all believable instead of enjoying a multi-millionaires Christmas he’s going to be in full Spartan mode instead? Sand dunes, gym, top quality sparring and broccoli, chicken and rice is his world until mid-February is it? It’s a real nonsense!

Furthermore, is the hunger there any longer, not just to train, but to keep improving, keep working towards excellence. He's made so much money now, he probably cannot find that desire any more.

It's one of the reasons, why like or loathe him, you have to rate mayweather for his dedication, he never ever dialled it in, even late in his career, and always looked in tip top shop, reputedly sparring for 15 rounds in the gym.

It was said Mike Tyson didn't train for Douglas, he would've as he looked in great shape and you can't be unfit and go 10 rounds unless you have a certain level of fitness. But again I doubt Mike trained his arse off either. There are levels to everything.

Controversial wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 11:52 It was said Mike Tyson didn't train for Douglas, he would've as he looked in great shape and you can't be unfit and go 10 rounds unless you have a certain level of fitness. But again I doubt Mike trained his arse off either. There are levels to everything.

Yes I read Tyson's book, which was pretty shite, he claimed that for a large part of his career he was just screwing, eating cheesecake, and doing industrial quantities of coke and weed, which I am sure is partly true, but he was obviously still training.

The douglas fight saw a clearly less motivated Tyson (I remember Frank Bruno saying how he didn't seem to have any intensity in the ring before they even started fighting), who assumed he could just turn up, and Douglas would fall over as soon as he landed.

On the other hand, Douglas was in the shape of his life both mentally and physically, and fought an almost perfect game plan. The tyson of a few years earlier, would have caught him earlier in the fiught, and finished him too, but even so, he almost pulled off a reveral.

I watched Holyfield v Tyson 1 the other night, and was noticable how much less head movement and footwork Tyson had, and he didn't have the rotation on his punches either, he was marching foward, and no longer able to create the angles he did in his prime. He had his moments of course, but his shots didn't have the same leverage on them, and he was being blocked a lot of the time.

Tyson's prime was probably only 4-5 years, and once he lost what made him special, his footwork, handspeed, combination punches and his elusiveness, he just became a small heavyweight, with still very good punch power and durability.

JamesPhilips wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 11:24

jwfg wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 11:17

JamesPhilips wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 09:59 I really don’t think he’s lagging behind Joshua at all.

I respect you as a poster James, but I have to say this...... Did Joshua just get knocked down and scrape past a 37 year old cage fighter?

Tyson Fury didn’t train a day for that. And it’s hugely embarrassing…. but if Joshua didn’t train and was off his PEDs a juiced up fit Ngannou would probably Ko him.

what proof can you offer to show Joshua is on Peds ?

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 12:00

Controversial wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 11:52 It was said Mike Tyson didn't train for Douglas, he would've as he looked in great shape and you can't be unfit and go 10 rounds unless you have a certain level of fitness. But again I doubt Mike trained his arse off either. There are levels to everything.

Yes I read Tyson's book, which was pretty shite, he claimed that for a large part of his career he was just screwing, eating cheesecake, and doing industrial quantities of coke and weed, which I am sure is partly true, but he was obviously still training.

Yes I read that too, it got very repetitive, gets laid, gets high and repeat. I remember him saying he had a load of weight to lose for the Douglas fight and Don King said he'd give him a load of money if he made it. Tyson said he took a load of laxatives and weight loss shakes to make it. I doubt he was training properly though, they had to scrap all his public workouts as he looked poor and he was decked in one of them.

big lennox wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 10:24
Also, had AJ been in the ring with Fury, instead of Ngannou, he'd have ko'd Fury early doors..

Unfortunately AJ didn’t have the same confidence. He turned the fight down again.

BigDoofus wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 16:46

big lennox wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 10:24
Also, had AJ been in the ring with Fury, instead of Ngannou, he'd have ko'd Fury early doors..

Unfortunately AJ didn’t have the same confidence. He turned the fight down again.

jwfg wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 11:49

JamesPhilips wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 11:24

jwfg wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 11:17

I respect you as a poster James, but I have to say this...... Did Joshua just get knocked down and scrape past a 37 year old cage fighter?

Tyson Fury didn’t train a day for that. And it’s hugely embarrassing…. but if Joshua didn’t train and was off his PEDs a juiced up fit Ngannou would probably Ko him.

Fury himself says he had a good camp. Did you have a spy in the Fury camp.

And you believe Tyson Fury? like people esp fighters never lie. Look at the state of his body, no definition, lardy. Didn’t throw many punches. I mean I’m sure he had a couple of move arounds and did a bit but come on…

JamesPhilips wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 16:52

jwfg wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 11:49

JamesPhilips wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 11:24

Tyson Fury didn’t train a day for that. And it’s hugely embarrassing…. but if Joshua didn’t train and was off his PEDs a juiced up fit Ngannou would probably Ko him.

Fury himself says he had a good camp. Did you have a spy in the Fury camp.

And you believe Tyson Fury? like people esp fighters never lie. Look at the state of his body, no definition, lardy. Didn’t throw many punches. I mean I’m sure he had a couple of move arounds and did a bit but come on…

I think he did train. He had to have been reasonably fit to get through the fight.

I watched a good interview with Dave Coldwell earlier. He made the excellent point that Fury struggled with Ngannou because he could match Fury for reach and more than match him for strength.

I actually think Fury threw some good shots in there, especially the opening salvo but his confidence dipped when he couldn't put a dent in Ngannou and then got dropped. But, he did well to get himself back into it, despite being pretty shaken.

big lennox wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 17:13

I watched a good interview with Dave Coldwell earlier. He made the excellent point that Fury struggled with Ngannou because he could match Fury for reach and more than match him for strength.

Just goes to show how much sheer size and/or weight advantages can have in the HW division. Ngannou was the heaviest opponent in Fury’s career, he couldn’t push and manhandle him like he often does in fights. Not only the heaviest but physically very strong too.

Controversial wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 17:39

big lennox wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 17:13

I watched a good interview with Dave Coldwell earlier. He made the excellent point that Fury struggled with Ngannou because he could match Fury for reach and more than match him for strength.

Just goes to show how much sheer size and/or weight advantages can have in the HW division. Ngannou was the heaviest opponent in Fury’s career, he couldn’t push and manhandle him like he often does in fights. Not only the heaviest but physically very strong too.

Absolutely. I'm not sure that a Fury vs Ngannou rematch would be that different from the first fight.

Fury looked pretty physically weak in that last fight. The weight is mainly increased body fat.

big lennox wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 17:51

Controversial wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 17:39

big lennox wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 17:13

I watched a good interview with Dave Coldwell earlier. He made the excellent point that Fury struggled with Ngannou because he could match Fury for reach and more than match him for strength.

Just goes to show how much sheer size and/or weight advantages can have in the HW division. Ngannou was the heaviest opponent in Fury’s career, he couldn’t push and manhandle him like he often does in fights. Not only the heaviest but physically very strong too.

Absolutely. I'm not sure that a Fury vs Ngannou rematch would be that different from the first fight.

I’m not sure, he will know what to expect next time. Fury also would’ve known the Usyk fight was next so doubt he wanted to take too many risks. What was more concerning was for someone who has changed game plans in previous fights he looked clueless vs Ngannou. Maybe just lack of fitness and over cautious after being dropped.

Controversial wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 18:42

big lennox wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 17:51

Controversial wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 17:39

Just goes to show how much sheer size and/or weight advantages can have in the HW division. Ngannou was the heaviest opponent in Fury’s career, he couldn’t push and manhandle him like he often does in fights. Not only the heaviest but physically very strong too.

Absolutely. I'm not sure that a Fury vs Ngannou rematch would be that different from the first fight.

I’m not sure, he will know what to expect next time. Fury also would’ve known the Usyk fight was next so doubt he wanted to take too many risks. What was more concerning was for someone who has changed game plans in previous fights he looked clueless vs Ngannou. Maybe just lack of fitness and over cautious after being dropped.

It was funny that previous to that fight, the pro-Fury camp would quote the supposedly giant ring IQ and adaptability as a valid reason he’d be competitive with Lewis etc. And then he goes and looks like a clueless beginner.

polecateddy wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 18:52

Controversial wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 18:42

big lennox wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 17:51

Absolutely. I'm not sure that a Fury vs Ngannou rematch would be that different from the first fight.

I’m not sure, he will know what to expect next time. Fury also would’ve known the Usyk fight was next so doubt he wanted to take too many risks. What was more concerning was for someone who has changed game plans in previous fights he looked clueless vs Ngannou. Maybe just lack of fitness and over cautious after being dropped.

It was funny that previous to that fight, the pro-Fury camp would quote the supposedly giant ring IQ and adaptability as a valid reason he’d be competitive with Lewis etc. And then he goes and looks like a clueless beginner.

I think Lewis would have has some struggles with Furys size, but overall Lewis was the better all around fighter, and after a few tricky rounds would have gone through him, like he did against Vitali, even a couple of years past his prime.

Controversial wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 18:42

big lennox wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 17:51

Controversial wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 17:39

Just goes to show how much sheer size and/or weight advantages can have in the HW division. Ngannou was the heaviest opponent in Fury’s career, he couldn’t push and manhandle him like he often does in fights. Not only the heaviest but physically very strong too.

Absolutely. I'm not sure that a Fury vs Ngannou rematch would be that different from the first fight.

I’m not sure, he will know what to expect next time. Fury also would’ve known the Usyk fight was next so doubt he wanted to take too many risks. What was more concerning was for someone who has changed game plans in previous fights he looked clueless vs Ngannou. Maybe just lack of fitness and over cautious after being dropped.

I think the lack of fitness was definitely an issue, bur also it was the fact that Ngannou was clearly much stronger, and also adept at working the clinches due to his MMA background and notable strength advantage.

Fury is a big strong lad, but for his size, not so much
I'd wager he would have struggled with someone like holyfield in that respect.

It's not just about size, it's about knowing how to work the leverage.

So those saying Fury has a great camp John is now saying the opposite.
“ But in my opinion, Tyson needs a bit more time to get his conditioning right and his weight right,’ Fury Snr told Metro.co.uk via Free Bets UK. ‘For me it looked like he had lost 20lbs of muscle last time. Something was wrong.

‘For my money, his last three fights, I have seen a bit of decline. Not a decline in ability but a decline in strength, power and physical condition. I don’t know what they are doing up there, you have to address it. He didn’t look himself out in Saudi.”

https://metro.co.uk/2023/11/21/john-fur ... -19857479/

I think all the did he didn't about the camp wildly misses the point. The heavyweight champion of the world, much fêted for his ring iq and skill, should be able to roll out of bed after a 3 week bender and still beat a zero fight novice without breaking a sweat of her read still operating at a high level.

It looks like the wilder fights took a lot out of him, plus not living the life and getting older are also having a big effect on him.