Classic American West Coast Boxing

dagosd2000
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

chrisjs1985 wrote: 27 Sep 2018, 11:21 Haha wow that's a good one. He sounded like quite the character.

I've been meaning to get that book you mentioned "Hard Leather". I haven't read too many reviews on it but it appears to be well researched. I am not really into the wave of Cuban boxers of the last 20-30 years because outside of Casamayor they mostly bored me to tears especially Rigondeaux. The wave of great boxers from way back then though I am very interested in and always want to learn more. Napoles, Rodriguez, Gavilan, Chocolate, Ramos, Legra etc; I'll purchase that book today i think.

I've seen relatively recent interviews with Legra and he seems healthy and it's good that he's seemingly lived a good life. He definitely lived through Spain through a very interesting time in their history. Madrid is my favorite major capital city though Sevilla has my heart.

Did you ever get to see much of a couple of Mexican bantamweights by the names of Toluco Lopez and German Ohm? It appears they mostly fought in Mexico and never got to fight for the world title. That era of Mexican bantamweights was murderers row. Now that era I'd love to read a book about!

I saw Lopez.Can't remember too much. I agree with your take on recent Cuban fighters. They seem flat footed and lack the spark those other guys you mentioned had. Sevilla,Spain has my heart too. My wife and I have been taking my granddaughter Amanda there for 13 years(also Cadiz and Jerez de La Frontera). She studies Flamenco dancing. She's 22 years old now and goes there on her own now. She is known in Spain and had danced and studied with Spain's foremost teachers She's a sight to see performing. :yay: :yay:
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Amanda dancing Sevillanas at The Casa de Anselma in Sevilla.She was 9 years old.



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Amanda dancing a choreography at El Teatro De Merced .Cadiz,Spain.2016
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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That's awesome! Good to hear. I have visited Cadiz too it's a beautiful place. I love Andalusia it's a beautiful region. Before I moved from England to California in early 2009, my mother and stepfather lived right down on the Costa Del Sol. Right between Malaga and Marbella in the Torremolinos area. I'd visit often and we'd take trips down to Sevilla, Cordoba, Cadiz and then a little closer would visit Gibraltar and even popped across the water to Tangier in Morocco. An interesting town. I wish I'd have gone further in and gone to Marcel Cerdan's old stomping ground down in Casablanca. Oh well.

I miss good tapas and I mean gooood tapas. Sure, there's some good Spanish places here but it's not a patch on the stuff over there despite being about twice the price and in the case of Cordoba, 100% more expensive!!
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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chrisjs1985 wrote: 27 Sep 2018, 17:08 That's awesome! Good to hear. I have visited Cadiz too it's a beautiful place. I love Andalusia it's a beautiful region. Before I moved from England to California in early 2009, my mother and stepfather lived right down on the Costa Del Sol. Right between Malaga and Marbella in the Torremolinos area. I'd visit often and we'd take trips down to Sevilla, Cordoba, Cadiz and then a little closer would visit Gibraltar and even popped across the water to Tangier in Morocco. An interesting town. I wish I'd have gone further in and gone to Marcel Cerdan's old stomping ground down in Casablanca. Oh well.

I miss good tapas and I mean gooood tapas. Sure, there's some good Spanish places here but it's not a patch on the stuff over there despite being about twice the price and in the case of Cordoba, 100% more expensive!!
[/quote

Chris
We went to Tangiers one day. Didn't care for it. My wife and granddaughter were wearing hot pants. Bad move. As soon as we got off the bus we were inundated with beggars and people who wanted to take us on a cook's tour of the Casbah.They were like blow flies.They kept following us around wanting to show us a good time.One guy kept saying I reminded him of his father. Like a dope I took the guy up on his offer of being a tour guide. He led us up these twisting and turning narrow streets saying that we'd eventually end up at the Casbah. After about 20 minutes of this trek I finally said I'd had enough. He starts crying and begging and wants 40 euros.I gave him 20 and meandered my way back down to the bus station. The last thing on my mind was trying to locate Marcel Cerdan's grave. I was worried that me and my family would wind up in one. :stop:


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Edith Piaf. The lover of Marcel Cerdan
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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Don Chargin has passed away after a bout with cancer at the age of 90. His obituary appeared in the Los Angeles Times.
RIP, Don...……

- Chuck Johnston
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

West Coast Boxing Hall Of Fame 2018

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Dan Hanley and Mike Weaver

I asked Mike if he remembered beating my friend Gary Young in the Golden Gloves in LA. I said that Gary was undefeated at the time. Mike said that he beat 3 undefeated amateurs when he got out of the Marines.


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Danny and Bonnie Lopez

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Frankie Duarte.One of the best smiles around.

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Rodolfo "Gato" Gonzalez
As nice a guy you'd want to meet.


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Rick Farris ,president of The West Coast Boxing Hall of Fame and his right hand man,Dan HanleyThat's not a lamp post in the foreground.


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Oscar De La Hoya introducing his Golden Boy executive Eric Gomez into the Hall


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Phoebe and Georgia Lewis,sisters of Hedgemon Lewis.
I told them I saw their brother fight in Tijuana at the Jai Alai Palace. They said that they were there and asked me if I remembered the snake.They are holding a portrait of their brother painted by Jun Aquino

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Me and Armando Muniz


Friday morning when my wife and I were checking into The Garland Hotel,Rick and Dan were also at the front desk. They had just gotten word that Don Chargin had died. The banquet was dedicated to his honor. All the recipients had something kind to say about him,. He had touched many boxing lives in the Southland.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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What Would He Say?

It's been talked about ever since it happened in Acapulco when Jose Napoles was awarded a Technical Decision over challenger Armando Muniz for the Welterweight Championship Of The World. I don't think there is anyone who follows boxing would disagree that Armando Muniz got the shaft that night.-even Jose Napoles. When I visited him a few years ago in Ciudad Juarez,somehow that fight came up in the discussion. Jose rolled his eyes a little and said something like(and I might have lost the gist of it in the translation) that he felt "bad" about what happened.

I"ve heard Armando talk about it.He doesn't seem bitter. He knows he got robbed,but going into the fight he knew the cards were stacked against him.Jose Sulaiman entered his dressing room before the fight and asked Armando if he thought he was going to win. Evidently,Napoles wanted a "soft" opponent instead of what Sulaiman had in mind with Angel Espada in Puerto Rico. Espada had outpointed Muniz,so Jose figured that fighting Armando in Mexico wasn't going to demand a monumental effort.

Napoles was in the autumn of a career that had won the admiration of boxing fans all over the world.But before he finally got a shot at a title against Curtis Cokes,Jose had sacrificed,paid his dues,but because he was such a threat,he was ducked by world champions like Carlos Ortiz and Ismael Laguna. There was a time when he stopped going to the gym. But George Parnassus resurrected him from the doldrums and put him on line for Cokes. In the his early defenses he looked invincible. Now the world could see what they had been missing. The Mexicans had called him "Mantequilla" because he fought so smoothly with saved effort. A poker face.Fire power in both hands That big "bigote" and the penetrating eyes.He gave the master boxer Emile Griffith some lessons on boxing running away with a decision(I asked Griffith once at a boxing ceremony about Napoles.He said he was the best fighter he ever was in there with).Hedge Lewis was outclassed. Tough Indian Red was cut down to size. He traveled to England and Canada. They wanted to see him in Madison Square Garden .However ,during that voyage Billy Backus,a fighter not in the same echelon as Napoles,reopened a cut above Napoles's brow in Syracuse. The ring doc said he could see bone. It was an old cut that Jose got in a loss to L.C. Morgan in Reynosa,Mexico. Jose got even with both boys in rematches,but now his wounds around his eyes were occurring more often. Added to that handicap,Jose was letting himself get caught up in the macho lifestyle. That, if nothing else, is an anathema to staying in top physical condition

Maybe Jose was reading his press clippings. Maybe he was listening to the wrong people. He was kidding himself.Angelo Dundee thought Jose could beat Monzon. Jose thought he could too. But Jose thought he could beat him inside 5 rounds so he trained for that distance. The first 5 rounds had fight announcer Gil Clancy validating Ray Robinson's assessment that Napoles was the best fighter in the world. Then Mr. Eye Cut opened up. Jose's legs got paralysis.The bell rang for the 7th round and Jose decided to stay on his stool.

After the Monzon affair Jose still waned to be champ,but now he was picking his spots.He fought Lewis again in the rarified air in Mexico City.He fought a guy who had no chance named Horacio Saldana. And then Jose opted for Armando.Ramon Berumen was the referee.Turns out he's Sulaiman's nephew.

Armando knew how to fight: only moving forward. He also knew how to work the body. Jose was out of shape. Armando put the pressure on. Armando was keeping Jose on the ropes. You could see as the fight progressed that Jose was treading in deep water. He was struggling and getting tired.He knew he had to do something so he began to foul Armando. It was a set up. Armando was wise to the fact if he retaliated Berumen woud DQ him immediately. So Armando kept his punches true. But Jose was holding another ace. That trump card was his bedeviling eye cuts.But now he could use the gashes to insure a win that seemed hopeless. Berumen must have got together with Uncle Jose between rounds and was ordered to stop the fight on a foul-the crime being charged to Armando for head butting.

After the fight Sulaiman was gracious and gave Armando his watch. I guess that was to compensate for the title belt.There was a rematch. Jose won this time fair and square,but he was cooked as a fighter. In his next fight in Mexico City, Stracey stuck a fork in him. They say Jose did most of training at the racetrack. Career over.

Armando stayed around,but he was starting to have nerve pain in his shoulder. He got the rematch with Napoles. Two chances against Carlos Palomino for the title,but if you search the listings of fight champions there's no name of Armando Muniz on the pages.

When I bumped into Armando last Sunday at the World Boxing Hall of Fame Banquet,I mentioned to him that I saw Jose Napoles in Ciudad Mexico I should say that Armando today is feeling like a kid. He's funny and the filter is off. He was at the banquet with his daughter. When I told him that Napoles felt "bad " about what happened in Acapulco,Armndo's demeanor changed suddenly. A serious intent look penetrated my eyes
"What do you think he would say if I sat down right next to him?'Armando asked.
"He would say that he felt bad the way thing turned out,"I answered.
Armando still hadn't modified the seriousness of his expression. Then some fans moved between us wanting to take pictures with him.

Who knows what Jose Napoles would say to Armando Muniz today? Whatever it would be there's still no compensation for being called the "uncrowned champion" for the rest of your life.


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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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Up until Stracey finished what was left of Napoles I'd say Muniz was the only one that was really close to taking his belt and certainly the only guy who'd outfought Napoles in a welterweight bout. I know Backus briefly snatched the belt on the cut but you know what I mean. It'a shame for Muniz he didn't get a world title out of his career. An excellent career including many big victories but 0-4 in title bouts much in the manner of Yaqui Lopez, another excellent crowd thriller who had a super career and came close so often and finished with an identical 0-4 in world title bouts.

I sometimes wonder if it irks these guys a little when you see just how much easier it is to get a title these days with lots more weight classes, four titles (plus the WBA's 2nd title) and the cherry picking/weight hopping. Look at Adrien Broner. 4 weight "champion"..He'd not even make the rankings back in Napoles' day.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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chrisjs1985 wrote: 02 Oct 2018, 19:33 Up until Stracey finished what was left of Napoles I'd say Muniz was the only one that was really close to taking his belt and certainly the only guy who'd outfought Napoles in a welterweight bout. I know Backus briefly snatched the belt on the cut but you know what I mean. It'a shame for Muniz he didn't get a world title out of his career. An excellent career including many big victories but 0-4 in title bouts much in the manner of Yaqui Lopez, another excellent crowd thriller who had a super career and came close so often and finished with an identical 0-4 in world title bouts.

I sometimes wonder if it irks these guys a little when you see just how much easier it is to get a title these days with lots more weight classes, four titles (plus the WBA's 2nd title) and the cherry picking/weight hopping. Look at Adrien Broner. 4 weight "champion"..He'd not even make the rankings back in Napoles' day.
[/quote

Chris
I started off my post going in the direction of how easy it is to win some sort of title bout these days.For the fighter,I guess it means a lot. For me there are so many phantom belts that I can't give much credence to it. I have a friend whose son is a fighter. He fights mostly in the bars in Tijuana. (so be it).A couple of years ago I get a call from the dad saying his son is going to fight for the "title." I went to the bar in TJ.It was a small venue,but very crowded. The kid won the fight. The kid had a pretty good record,but most of his opponents were of the Tijuana bar ilk. Well,the kid won over an opponent who had a losing record.(Imagine fighting for a title and having a losing record?)In the ring the kid was presented with the belt and his title,"Northern Baja California Featherweight Champion."You can take it from there. :lol

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El Perro Salada(the Salty Dog Bar)in TJ. Venue for title fights.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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d
Last edited by dagosd2000 on 04 Oct 2018, 10:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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Mama's Boy

I told you that when I asked Emile Griffith at the World Boxing Hall of Fame Banquet in Inglewood,California who was his toughest opponent. His response was "Jose Napoles." But "Jose Napoles" came after he answered my first query with a knee jerk reply. Before I could finish getting the words out of my mouth.
"My mother."
He didn't have to think about it. He gave no explanation There was no tongue in cheek. He was as sure of the veracity of his statement like he had one hand on the bible.

My wife and I had checked into the Marriott the day before the induction ceremony. Our room was on the bottom floor,the same floor where Griffith and his caretaker and biographer Don Ross were staying. The morning of the induction ceremony my wife and I bumped into Griffith and his friend standing in front of the elevator waiting to go up to the dining room for breakfast..We stood behind them.Griffith was standing a few feet in front of his friend,his nose pressed against the door of the elevator.
"I'm scared,"muttered Griffith trembling."Where are we going?"
"Everything is all right,"said his friend calmly."We are going to eat breakfast."
The friend put his hand on Griffith's shoulder He was a big friendly looking guy.He never took his eyes off Griffith.
"Don't worry,"said the friend."The elevator is on its way."
The friend's words relaxed Griffith's shoulders.He stepped back a little from the door.
"That's good,"said Griffith."I'm hungry."
When the elevator came down and opened its doors,Griffith's friend, with his hand,guided Emile to the back of the elevator.The friend stood in front of Griffith..My wife and I and Griffith and his friend were the only ones inside the elevator. After the elevator came up to the floor were the dining room was,Griffith's friend put his hand on Griffith's shoulder and they walked together to the dining room.Before my wife and I went to eat,we saw Gaspar Ortega and his wife sitting in the lobby.We went over to converse a little before going to eat breakfast.


Griffith had been inducted , I think, the first year the first year the World Boxing Hall of Fame opened its doors. Ortega was already in. I remembered when the two fought in New York at the Garden.Griffith was not the champion yet.It was a close fight with Griffith getting a split decision win. It was tough to beat Griffith in New York,just ask Luis Rodriguez. But after Griffith beat Benny Paret to wear the welterweight crown,he put his title on the line against Ortega at The Olympic Auditorium in Los Angeles.I was rooting for Gaspar. I thought Luis Rodriguez got jobbed in New York against Emile. It wasn't out in public yet that Emile was gay,but the way he talked was a giveaway..That got on my nerves. I couldn't believe someone who was gay could be a figher,let alone a very good fighter and a champion.In my mind it didn't add up But Emile gave Ortega a boxing lesson in LA. He was in his stride then.Griffith had too much of everything that night. His hand speed and footwork were phenomenal. Emile,the gay fighter,gave Ortega a beat down.


Emile Griffith fought everyone and fought often. He seemed to see everything in front of him,and with his skills and reflexes dominated.When Ruben Carter, with all his muscles, clocked Emile in Pittsburg just before Christmas,I sent Santa a "thank you letter." The only other times in the 60's Griffith didn't get his hand raised was in Los Angeles against Rodriguez,a loss to Manny Gonzalez in Texas,and Don Fullmer in Salt Lake City Now Emile got a taste of the being on the wrong end of the hometown decision.Griffith had the skills to beat Dick Tiger to move up a weight class and win the middleweight crown.(the two Griffith /Tiger fights had to be two of the most boring encounters in the books. Two great fighters who had styles that resulted in hum drum fights).Then came the Benvenuti trilogy. Nino winning two of the three was like adding white clam sauce to my spaghetti.At the decade's end,Emile dropped weight again and went after Jose Napoles's 145 title. A lot of people thought Griffith had "drained" himself for that fight,that he was past his prime. Griffith was a "blown up" middleweight. He'd weigh in the low and mid 150's when he fought at middleweight. When he fought Napoles in LA he was a tick under Jose weighing in at 144 and a quarter pounds. Reading about the fight in his bio and then Griffith telling me that Napoles was the "best" fighter he ever faced ,without qualifying his remarks with any sour grapes,validated what I saw in that fight. Jose was the better man that night.

Before the induction ceremony Griffith was seated at a table next to his friend and biographer,Don Ross, in the lobby. There was a stack of Griffith's bio,"Nine Ten And Out", on the table. The two seemed alone,everyone walking by them like they weren't there. I went up to where they were sitting and said that I wanted to buy a book.
"Thanks,"said Ross with a smile."You're the first one."
Emile just sat there with a warm smile on his face.
"It's 20 bucks and Emile will autograph it for you. Did you want me to sign it too?"
"Of course",I answred.reaching for my wallet.
Ross opened the front cover and signed his name with a sharpie. He then handed the pen to Griffith and he signed his name.
"Have a seat,"said Ross."Make yourself at home."
I sat next to Griffith. He turned his head to me slowly and smiled.
"Thank you,."he said meekly.
He looked fragile. His hand shook a little. He sat slouched in his chair. Then i asked him who was his toughest opponent.That's when he said his "mother." After reaskng the question wanting a name of a fighter,I began to take Griffith in sitting there,everyone passing him by like he was a lamp post.I remembered all the fights I'd seen on TV.I remembered Paret. Just then some guy walked up to the table holding a picture. It was the image of Benny Paret sagging against the ring ropes dying.
"Hey Emile,"he shouted."Will you sign my picture?"
I was taken aback.
"Yes,"said Emile softly.
Griffith's friend sat motionless Emile looked at the picture and slowly signed his name.
"Would you like to buy a book?"asked Griffith to the autograph hound.
"How much?"
"20dollars,"answered Griffith's friend.
"No thanks."
"Emile will sign his name to it."
"No.I got to be going,"said the guy staring at the picture.

I sat there with them for a few more minutes. I went back to my room to get ready for the induction ceremony.As I was getting dressed I thought about how I used to feel about Emile Griffith. Somewhere in the past 45 years I had realized that those perceptions had vanished.It wasn't a concerted effort. Somehow the transcendence was like a forgotten dream.I didn't want to remember how I felt about him before.I was some stranger back then I wanted to bury.

When I got home I read the book. Emile Griffith was a man that took on a lot in life.Providing for his family was foremost. They put demands on him. He responded the best he could. Now he was sitting at a table with his caretaker with a stack of books about his life in front of him. And everyone was just walking by

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Me, flanked by two old adversaries,Emile Griffith and Gaspar Ortega



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Emile Griffith in later life
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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Griffith was a truly great fighter and took on so many great opponents. I have nothing but respect for him but I do think Rodriguez should have been no worse than 3-1 against him. I think El Feo won the last two bouts clearly.

Who do you think would have won in a mythical match between Napoles and Rodriguez? I remember seeing in an old Ring magazine they polled three people - Griffith, Angelo Dundee and Hank Kaplan and all three said Rodriguez would have won.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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chrisjs1985 wrote: 04 Oct 2018, 11:08 Griffith was a truly great fighter and took on so many great opponents. I have nothing but respect for him but I do think Rodriguez should have been no worse than 3-1 against him. I think El Feo won the last two bouts clearly.

Who do you think would have won in a mythical match between Napoles and Rodriguez? I remember seeing in an old Ring magazine they polled three people - Griffith, Angelo Dundee and Hank Kaplan and all three said Rodriguez would have won.

Chris
I agree with your 3-1 verdict in Luis's favor. Rodriguez's legacy would have been more highly regarded if those results would have been official. Luis only owned the title 3 months before he was robbed again in New York.(The fight where I thought Luis made his poorest showing against Emile was in Dodger Stadium when he won the title).Napoles/Rodriguez?Glad you asked. I saw Griffith's,Dundee's,and Kaplan's responses. I take the hypothetical with a grain of salt. In this case since Napoles was my favorite fighter,I think Jose would have beaten them all,including Ali,Louis,and Tyson.(of course that would be in his prime fighting years) :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Can't no one beat my guy Jose
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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dagosd2000 wrote: 04 Oct 2018, 12:58
chrisjs1985 wrote: 04 Oct 2018, 11:08 Griffith was a truly great fighter and took on so many great opponents. I have nothing but respect for him but I do think Rodriguez should have been no worse than 3-1 against him. I think El Feo won the last two bouts clearly.

Who do you think would have won in a mythical match between Napoles and Rodriguez? I remember seeing in an old Ring magazine they polled three people - Griffith, Angelo Dundee and Hank Kaplan and all three said Rodriguez would have won.

Chris
I agree with your 3-1 verdict in Luis's favor. Rodriguez's legacy would have been more highly regarded if those results would have been official. Luis only owned the title 3 months before he was robbed again in New York.(The fight where I thought Luis made his poorest showing against Emile was in Dodger Stadium when he won the title).Napoles/Rodriguez?Glad you asked. I saw Griffith's,Dundee's,and Kaplan's responses. I take the hypothetical with a grain of salt. In this case since Napoles was my favorite fighter,I think Jose would have beaten them all,including Ali,Louis,and Tyson.(of course that would be in his prime fighting years) :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Can't no one beat my guy Jose
That's a great painting. :TU:

I've just purchased the book "Hard Leather" it arrived yesterday. I'm going to sit down and read it all in the next few days. I wonder what would have happened in Mantequilla's career had he gone to Miami and not Mexico? I think he'd likely to have gotten a crack at the title in his natural weight class instead of as a welterweight approaching 30. Carlos Ortiz certainly isn't a fighter you'd associate with ducking an opponent but it's interesting they never fought. Of course going to Mexico meant he'd become a national idol in Mexico more than he ever could in America.

Regarding the Griffith series yeah it's just one of those sad things were the results on paper can't tell a story. My guy Juan Manuel Marquez was going to suffer that fate with the Pacquaio series until he separated him from his senses but I still don't think the 1-1-2 series is fair on Marquez.

I'm going to be on a Napoles and Rodriguez binge for the next week or so. Two of my favorite artists in the history of the game. As far as who wins :maybe: I think they go 1-1-1 and have a winner takes all fight and I can't call that one.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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chrisjs1985 wrote: 04 Oct 2018, 13:21
dagosd2000 wrote: 04 Oct 2018, 12:58
chrisjs1985 wrote: 04 Oct 2018, 11:08 Griffith was a truly great fighter and took on so many great opponents. I have nothing but respect for him but I do think Rodriguez should have been no worse than 3-1 against him. I think El Feo won the last two bouts clearly.

Who do you think would have won in a mythical match between Napoles and Rodriguez? I remember seeing in an old Ring magazine they polled three people - Griffith, Angelo Dundee and Hank Kaplan and all three said Rodriguez would have won.

Chris
I agree with your 3-1 verdict in Luis's favor. Rodriguez's legacy would have been more highly regarded if those results would have been official. Luis only owned the title 3 months before he was robbed again in New York.(The fight where I thought Luis made his poorest showing against Emile was in Dodger Stadium when he won the title).Napoles/Rodriguez?Glad you asked. I saw Griffith's,Dundee's,and Kaplan's responses. I take the hypothetical with a grain of salt. In this case since Napoles was my favorite fighter,I think Jose would have beaten them all,including Ali,Louis,and Tyson.(of course that would be in his prime fighting years) :lol: :lol: :lol:
Image


Can't no one beat my guy Jose
That's a great painting. :TU:

I've just purchased the book "Hard Leather" it arrived yesterday. I'm going to sit down and read it all in the next few days. I wonder what would have happened in Mantequilla's career had he gone to Miami and not Mexico? I think he'd likely to have gotten a crack at the title in his natural weight class instead of as a welterweight approaching 30. Carlos Ortiz certainly isn't a fighter you'd associate with ducking an opponent but it's interesting they never fought. Of course going to Mexico meant he'd become a national idol in Mexico more than he ever could in America.

Regarding the Griffith series yeah it's just one of those sad things were the results on paper can't tell a story. My guy Juan Manuel Marquez was going to suffer that fate with the Pacquaio series until he separated him from his senses but I still don't think the 1-1-2 series is fair on Marquez.

I'm going to be on a Napoles and Rodriguez binge for the next week or so. Two of my favorite artists in the history of the game. As far as who wins :maybe: I think they go 1-1-1 and have a winner takes all fight and I can't call that one.
[/quote

Chris

Thanks for the compliment.
A couple of things: What was an eye opener in the book was Paret's trainer revealing that after the Federico Thompson fight,Benny was experiencing terrible headaches and blurred vision.Caron,his trainer,goes to Alfaro ,Paret's manager,and tells him.Alfaro sluffs it off.Paret was not a durable guy especially against bigger men. So they match him with a bull middleweight,Gene Fullmer. That was hard to watch.Paret dies on TV in The Garden and there was a call to disband the sport. That wouldn't have happened,but luckily Cassius Clay came along.


Carlos Ortiz may have wanted to fight Napoles(most fighters would fight anybody their team puts in front of them)but Carlos's team wanted the likes of Battling Torres.


One last comment. They asked Dundee if he saw that Ali had dropped off considerably when training for Larry Holmes.To paraphrase I'll let Ange tell it.
"Ali was my guy. When you have your guy you see things differently. It's like looking through rose colored glasses."
Imagine,that coming from one of the most renowned trainers of all time.

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Ali.He was something more than the greatest fighter. :TU:
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

Here I go again.Chris,I didn't address your take on what might have happened if Napoles would have fought out of Miami,USA. Let me tell you,Mexico was made to order for Napoles. He was a killer in the ring and the aficianados quickly grew to idolize him. Couple that with Jose's ingratiating himself with the country's culture,especially the machismo aspect,and he was like a native son. The president, Ordaz, even pulled strings to make him a citizen. That was a first.Jose Alfredo Jimenez,one the most famous Mexican legendary singers even wrote a song for him. When Napoles won the title against Cokes,the Mexicans were ecstatic. Asked what he thought of Mexico ,here's a very macho and poignant response.
"If they threw me in the middle of the ocean,all I would do is listen for the mariachis and find my way back."




El Rey(The King) sung by Napoles's drinking buddy the legendary Jose Alfredo Jimenez. The song was dedicated to Napoles.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by chrisjs1985 »

I think Napoles had that extra killer instinct that most the Cuban greats perhaps didn't have and he knew what his audience wanted. I saw a brief interview with him a couple of years ago where he had said he was moving back to Mexico City for health reasons. Did he make the move back or is he still in Juarez now?

I ask a lot of questions, sorry. Haha. I was wondering if there's also any good documentaries on Cuban boxing from around that era and before? Like I said I am not too much into the wave of Cuban boxers from the last quarter century sans Casamayor (who I grew to admire) but I'd love to see something in depth that covers Napoles, Rodriguez, Ramos, Fernandez, Tunero etc; etc; etc;
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

chrisjs1985 wrote: 04 Oct 2018, 14:40 I think Napoles had that extra killer instinct that most the Cuban greats perhaps didn't have and he knew what his audience wanted. I saw a brief interview with him a couple of years ago where he had said he was moving back to Mexico City for health reasons. Did he make the move back or is he still in Juarez now?

I ask a lot of questions, sorry. Haha. I was wondering if there's also any good documentaries on Cuban boxing from around that era and before? Like I said I am not too much into the wave of Cuban boxers from the last quarter century sans Casamayor (who I grew to admire) but I'd love to see something in depth that covers Napoles, Rodriguez, Ramos, Fernandez, Tunero etc; etc; etc;

Chris
A few years ago his family took him to Mexico City to see some specialists concerning his health issues. After some treatments,his family brought him back to Ciudad Juarez. He lives on that same little street in that same little house where i saw him four years ago. There is a video on YouTube made about a year ago(in Spanish),an interview of Napoles and his wife,Bertha. Since he returned from Mexico City,his health has begun to deteriorate again. He has diabetes,prostrate problems,and fighter's dementia. His wife is going through a lot. She says that she has to bathe him,shave him,and feed him.They have no children together. The billionare,Carlos Slim,pays their bills. The house they live in is not theirs. If I lived in el Paso I'd try to do somethuing for him. I almost went to try to find him last month when I went to visit my grandson who's attending Arizona State U.But trying to find Napoles is very tricky. I have no way of communicating with him. When i saw him I left him my card.I told him if he needed anything to get in touch. I asked him for his phone number but he didn't know it. that day he said his wife was out shopping so she wasn't around. When i was leaving he wanted to go with me to the United States.


In order to do a good job teklling the history of Cuban boxing,it would take volumes to do the job right. Aside from people interested in Cuban boxing,I don't see a demand for such a work. A publisher wouldn't want to stake anything on something like that(that's if someone had the energy to put a work like that together). I know that at my age I don't have the drive anymore. The best way of getting the story told would be to break everything down. Do a biography,let's say,of Kid Gavilan. Another on Napoles. Or something like the history of Cuban boxing champions. To try to put everything in an anthology spreads the history too thin and doesn't do it justice.

Image

Jose waiting for his wife to come home from shopping
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

Boulder At An Exhibition

Sunday September 30th in the Garland Hotel banquet room,the former light heavyweight contender,John "The Iceman" Scully,(with Archie's Moore's daughter J'Marie Moore)stood at the dais to introduce The Mongoose,Archie Moore, into The West Coast Boxing Hall of Fame. Rick Farris,the Hall's president, tipped me off that Scully would be part of the presentation. I've posted on the forum how I would lend a hand at Moore's Any Boy Can Club after I finished up my daily stint at the Friendship School for handicapped children in East San Diego. I would pass Moore's club on my way home. It had been so long ago(in the early 80's)that I have forgotten where his ABC was located. A few years ago I tried to find the old place. Moore's boxing gym was situated in a little strip mall. A few years ago I tried to retrace my steps to see if there was at least a footprint.Maybe the strip mall was still there and then the deja vu would happen. But for the life of me,I kept driving around and around in circles. I couldn't find any strip mall. I thought the gym was on Federal Avenue.I drove up and down Federal and nothing felt familiar.

I knew Scully had a relationship with Moore.While he was an amateur fighter,Moore had a hand with Scully's development. I was sure that we could swap some stories about The Any Boy Can. Scully related to the crowd that he had asked Moore ,by mail,for an autograph. He included in his letter that he was an amateur fighter. Well typical Archie,he not only sent a signed picture,but he kept in touch with Scully through emails(this had to be in the 90's)giving him advice with his training.It might sound unorthodox,but Archie Moore wasn't a man you could pigeonhole into the common opening. Scully went on with his anecdotes,but didn't mention anything about the ABC.After the presentation ceremony concluded ,I asked Scully if he had ever honed his skills at Archie's boys club.To my surprise he told me he had never set foot in the place. He told me that maybe Moore's daughter could shed some light,but I couldn't locate her .


Oh well,it was no big deal.I drove back to Dan Diego not giving much thought about not having to share the experience with someone about that neighborhood landmark. I was anxious to bond,but that's life in the big boxing arena.

The other night I was re watching a documentary about Ali. I don't have the name of it at my fingertips. There's been so many of them.There have been so many people who have defined their lives with Ali. It was a codependency that had its positives and negatives. I don't think Ali would have ever wanted to fight Holmes if he didn't think it would awe his entourage.And when he passed away,his death cut a big part out of the lives of all the biographers,photographers,and film makers.Now they have to go on without him.


Watching the documentary something jumped out at me. We know Ali let his father paint the names of famous fighters on the big boulders beside the road at his Deer Lake training facility.I saw one documentary where Ali showed some of the art his dad had brushed on those big rocks.
"And here is the Joe Louis rock,"exclaimed Muhammad.
"And here's the Rocky Marciano rock."
"This is the Jack Johnson rock."
On and on and on,and then...
"This is the Archie Moore rock."
That woke me up. If there was anyone(maybe beside Joe Frazier)who wouldn't have cared if Ali went to jail for ducking the draft or got his ass kicked in a fight,inside the ring or out in the street,it was Archie "Mongoose" Moore. Joe Louis later softened his stance with Muhammad.Foreman idolizes him.So does Larry.Even Joe Frazier's son ,Marvis,said that the two adversaries settled things peacefully.I know Patterson always called him "Clay"(that was his Christian name so said Floyd),but you never never wanted to approach Archie Moore with a "Don't you think you should bury the hatchet?" proposition. I remember the times I was in his boys club,had lunch with him at Huffman's Barbeque,or would bump into him in Southeast San Diego I pretended that Cassius Marcelles Muhammad Ali Clay had been lobotomized from my brain.

After admiring that impressive "Archie Moore" rock,I can tell you for certain there were no photographs,newspaers,magazines,or fight posters with The Greatest gracing the covers inside The ABC. I think if I had mentioned his name,even in a derogatory sense,I wouldn't have been invited back.


So who's right and who's wrong?:Ali or Moore. It's none of my business.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

I see the TinyPic website is down. My pictures are gone and I can't download anything.That's life in the big boxing arena. :lol:


Image


TinyPic is working again. Here's Archie looking very debonair
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

The Aztec Princess

The United States blazes a moral path that sooner or later is trodden on by the rest of the world. Unless it's North Korea,where it seems that all of their government's energy is to keep their people from seeing what's on the other side of their borders,the modes of American conduct will sprinkle their trends and fads on everyone who has been to the good ol' USA whether in person or gotten the drift watching television.But I don't think but a few North Koreans have passports and I doubt if MTV is on any of the TV channels..But across the board women have probably made the greatest leaps in the last 50 years.When I went to school,the girls wore white blouses and styled black shorts with a white stripe down the side. in P.E. class there were no girls' sport teams.They played things like badminton and volleyball in the gym. They participted in dance classes.if there was any competition it was in intramurals against other girls from other gym periods Title Nine changed all that.i think it was instituted in 1969. For all you millennials out there women were kept under wraps. In the Olympics females couldn't run anything over a mile because they (the men)felt it would somehow mess up their bodies so they couldn't have kids or something. Malcolm X said that if you want to judge the merit of a country see how their women are treated. I think the Muslim world has some work to do.The Middle East should take a cue from Malcolm.

I'm in my 70's now and struggle with arthritis. When I was in my prime,I'd size up all the males on the block and compare myself. Today ,Ronda Rousey could kill me if she wanted to and wouldn't need a gun.Back then If someone would have told me that girls would be mangling each other in a cage on Pay Per View television,I would have asked them if they were reading too much H.G. Wells.


Our neighbor below the border,Mexico,has always kept an eye on their fairer sex. The girls in grades K through 12 still wear dresses .In San Diego high schools, when all the over sexed boys wanted to see a real Gomorrah,a twenty minute drive to Tijuana would release all those repressions. But it was the boys,not the girls who made the drive. They were probably just as horny ,but they would have worn a scarlet letter when they showed up for school on Monday.

But how about the female Mexican prep schoolers?To get through their fathers and uncles and brothers,they would have had better success scaling Popocatepetl.But forgwet all that. Today,2018,Gomorrah doesn't discriminate.On Sundays many of the clubs have what they call "tardeadas",that's where the girls get in free. Now the law says you have to 18,but if they don't have enough years in the bank ,they usually can convince the bouncer that they belong to "La Vida Loca" and he'll hold the door open.


Female boxing has lost a lot of its appeal on the U.S. side. It's all settled in the octagon now with no holds barred.In Mexico,the girls are leaving their mark in sweet science. Mexican girls may have been sheltered once,but they have an innate sense of busting chops. When I was teaching,I probably had to break up more Mexican girl fights than separating the male combatants from hurting each other. One time in TJ I took on two drunk sailors in the middle of the street.The first guy I had on the ground and was taking care of business. Then I looked up and I saw his friend was approaching ready to kick my head off. Out of the crowd my wife comes out running and leaps on top of this guy horsey back style and is pounding the top of his head with her fists. I looked at her and saw that she had gone ballistic. She's yelling at me to kill the guy I have on the pavement.
"Matelo! Matelo!
Nothing could ever come between us after that significant moment

Local TJ fighters Luis Nery and Jaime Munguia have progressed to a stage where I don't think the Tijuaneros will see them in action again unless the they can afford to buy a ticket at Caesars Palace. But the female pugilists are alive and well and swinging. The gal who is my favorite,is a champion,and very popular in Tijuana,is "La Princessa Azteca",Jackie Nava. She's managed by Erik Morales.I like her because I she hasn't lost her femininity,she's pretty,and she can fight. She's the most accomplished woman fighter I've ever seen. She's not a grandstander.She doesn't trash talk her opponents. She's not an untamed Amazon.She keeps her composure at all times. They love her in Tijuana. My granddaughter and her husband know her. They belong to the same church. Jackie ran for office in Tijuana,something equivalent to a councilwoman,and won.Like I said,she's pretty ,but doesn't project an image of a sex siren.Her smile is out of this world She's got a title fight coming up against a Mexican opponent. It's big fight. I Googled her opponent. Oh,she's a looker. There's a lot of pics of her in the buff. I hope Jackie can dress her down

Image

Jackie's smile
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by chrisjs1985 »

It seems like Mexico is the only place where people actually watch women’s boxing. I don’t watch a lot myself but my favorite is Arely Mucino. Great looking gal and she gets down and has a lot of heart.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

d]
Last edited by dagosd2000 on 06 Oct 2018, 23:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

dagosd2000 wrote: 06 Oct 2018, 23:16
chrisjs1985 wrote: 06 Oct 2018, 23:02 It seems like Mexico is the only place where people actually watch women’s boxing. I don’t watch a lot myself but my favorite is Arely Mucino. Great looking gal and she gets down and has a lot of heart.
Chris
If you go to the gyms in TJ it's almost half and half men and women. Again,boxing is a poor man's(woman's)out. Mexican women like to fight. Some think maybe they should get paid for it.


Image

My great granddaughter,Cindy,has a black belt in karate.Here she is with her teacher.Tijuana,Baja California
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

A Little Continuity

I watched the McGrogor/Kahbib contest today on YouTube.I wasn't up with the pre fight hype. Something about McGregor saying something. These guys went at it for four rounds. Khabib made McGregor submit. It was brutal. I thought Khabib had him psyched out even before it started. As rough as it was,I"ll stick to watching boxing. It's difficult for a boxer, especially if he's wearing gloves,to get into a MMA match with any of the two guys from last night.Even without mitts. That's about as close to a fight to the finish as it gets in sports. That MMA stuff. In the back of alley,they will kill you.

But I'd rather watch two good boxers who have a lot of stuff try to outsmart each other.Going the distance is fine with me. Seeing skills for ten fast rounds is as good as it gets.It's pretty to watch. That's why I think Ali would rather say" I'm pretty" than "I'm a bear" or "I'm a mummy." I know Liston and Foreman never thought of themselves in that light,but if The Greatest said it ,that's who Liston and Foreman will resemble in quick thought. I'd rather watch Cassius Clay/Ali than the big punchers,but of course Clay/Ali always rose to the top with those guys

Boxing is better to watch ,or they'd call it something like "grapwrestling",but that moniker would reduce ticket sales. It fits,but it's not glamorous sounding. MMA( if you don't want to say what those letters stand for)


I'm afraid MMA has replaced boxing as the No. 1 punch in the mouth sport in America. I wonder how many millennials have even heard of Muhammad Ali.? I'm sure it's something like "Out of sight out of mind."

Image


Am I A bear or a mummy?
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

Cheers

"Have you ever been to San Diego?"I asked the bartender standing behind the bar.
"I have to say I've had the good luck of never being there,"he chortled putting a bottle of beer in front of me.
I decided that I wanted to get away a few days so booked a flight and hotel to Boston. My main purpose was to take in a Red Sox game,not that am or ever was a fan of the Red Sox-I wanted to see Fenway Park.Wrigley Field and Fenway are the last of the landmark baseball parks.I'd been to Wrigley a slew of times being from Chicago. Fenway was on my bucket list.
"I like it. I'd rather spend the winter in San Diego than out here,"I said defending myself.
Turned out my hotel wasn't in Boston proper,but located east of the city across the harbor in a burg called Hull. The cab ride from the airport I had to take a loan out,but after I got settled in,I traveled by the ferry boats or the train and subway.The hotel was one of those old wooden structures,elegantly facing the ocean front. There was a glass enclosed pool and a restaurant that specialized in seafood.
"Well we have enough to occupy ourselves with the Patriots during the winter,"he said.
The bartender reminded me of the bartender,Coach,in that TV series Cheers.I went to the Cheers in Boston on one of those bus tours where you can get on and off. When the bus stopped at Cheers,the only thing that looked familiar was that sign on the railing with the hand pointing down. Inside that Cheers in Boston it wasn't like the "bar" on the studio set. The bus driver had said that they didn't use the bar in Boston. They only filmed the outside.Anyway, I didn't stay. As soon as I saw the gift shop I left. I can say I went To Cheers in Boston. Maybe it was because I was in Boston and wanted to relate with historical references that wanted to "go back" in time. Boston certainly has plenty of history connected to it.
"We have the Chargers."
"That's too bad,"he said'
In physical appearance,the bartender did look like Coach in Cheers. With the apron on and his shirt sleeves rolled up. But that's where the resemblance stopped. Coach was a funny kind of a simple guy that everyone loved. This dude behind the bar was one sarcastic SOB.
"The Chargers have never won nothing,"he gloated."And neither has your baseball team."
"It doesn't look like they will this year either."
"We get people from all over New England coming in to see the Patriots."
"That's good."
"And we won a couple of World Series with The Sox..And then we have the Celtics and the Bruins."
"All we have left in San Diego is the Padres. The Chargers are going to LA."
"The Pats open up with the Jets. They're a laugh.And that coach of theirs is a joke,"said the bartender with a smirk.
"We used to have pretty good boxing in San Diego."
"We had guys like Marciano and Pep. What did you have in San Diego?"
"I saw fighters like Bobby Chacon and Little Red Lopez."
"You mean two Puerto Ricans."
"One was Mexican.The other guy was white."
"Mexicans?We've got plenty of Mexicans here. They're all over the place. Them and the Chinese over in Quincy.And then there's the Arabs."
"How about the blacks?"
"Well,they've been here for some time."
"I'm going to the Red Sox game tonight.It's Big Papi Night.They're giving away Big Papi shirts."
"That guy could be mayor if he wanted."
"I remember when this town was pretty hard on blacks. Russell.Rice. They got a lot of flak."
"But things change. It's not that way now."
"Except for you."
"Naw,I just come across that way.I don't mean it."
I finished my beer and asked him what I owed.
"You sure you don't want another beer?It's on me."
"No thanks. If I'm going to get to Fenway on time,I got to get going."
"Can I ask you something before you go?"
"Go ahead."
"Do you ever see any movie stars walking around in San Diego?"

Image

Boston's greatest baseball player,Ted Williams. He was born in San Diego.
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