BoxRec

Roger, Chavez I think did have two fights at MSG if I recall correctly. On the undercard of Rosario-Camacho I believe. I remember seeing the fight poster recently and JCC was underneath the main. The other time was against Juan LaPorte. I always felt that was one of his closest fights.

But yeah for sure the Mexican fighter just never really gravitated to MSG. Outside of geography not sure why (perhaps there is no other reason) I always found the NYC fight crowd to be an educated one that appreciated all fighters.

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑07 May 2019, 22:23 Roger, Chavez I think did have two fights at MSG if I recall correctly. On the undercard of Rosario-Camacho I believe. I remember seeing the fight poster recently and JCC was underneath the main. The other time was against Juan LaPorte. I always felt that was one of his closest fights.

But yeah for sure the Mexican fighter just never really gravitated to MSG. Outside of geography not sure why (perhaps there is no other reason) I always found the NYC fight crowd to be an educated one that appreciated all fighters.

Thanks Chris.I stand corrected. I went to the BoxRec archives and saw that J.C. fought in a couple of semi mains at The Garden.

My wife has loads of family that migrated from Michoacán to New York.I'd say half are legal,the other half went through getting their papers. Now it is a very costly process to get your papers if you're an illegal in the U.S. Maybe 10 to 15 thousand dollars.The Mexican community in New York is centralized in Westchester County. Many are from the state of Michoacán. From time to time I see them whether back in Michoacán or New York. They are all happy as clams.The ones that go through duress are the men who left families back in Michoacán. Some of those guys have never seen their kids,their wives for years.But in the Latino world it's boys will be boys so I'm sure there are a lot of mistresses to go around.

Here's my take on why the great Mexican fighters never took hold back east. It's not so much the fans that don't want to see them(boxing fans love to see good fighters)it's the Mexican fighter that doesn't feel at home, though I'd say a million Mexicans live in New York. The Puerto Rican and Caribbean community has been established in New York a lot longer than the Mexican communities. They have representatives in Congress and carry more clout.The Mexicans that live in New York are still very "rural" in their thinking. They don't go to fights or ball games.They stay at home and socialize with the family. The Mexicans that live in California and Texas are in a way more Americanized. They go out more and are more or less assimilated.Their family trees go back generations.

So when a Mexican fighter like Chavez ,for example, steps into the ring with Juan LaPorte or another Latino fighter who's bloodline is from the Caribbean the crowd is not behind Chavez. It's like that post I made a few days ago about a Mexican's "Patria Chica"(his little comfortable place).New York City is a far ways away from Mexico,San Antonio, or Los Angeles.But that "Patria Chica" jazz runs both ways. Non Mexican Latinos like Duran,Gomez,and Trinidad didn't want to frequent the Southland. The Mexican crowds would have had a field day. I'd say the biggest rivalry in Latino boxing is a Mexican fighter against a Puerto Rican.

100% on the rivalry between Mexico-Puerto Rico. Unfortunately Puerto Rico has had one of the biggest droughts in world class fighters so there hasn't been many classic fights to add to the series in recent years.

Think Gomez-Zarate, Sanchez-Gomez, Gomez-Pintor, Rosario-Ramirez I & II, Chavez-Rosario, Trinidad-De La Hoya* (letdown but big event), Trinidad-Vargas*, Margarito-Cotto etc; BIg fights and events between big fighters and mostly always it was a battle.

* Mexican-American but still the rivalry is there

Wilfredo Gomez was so instrumental in that rivalry. Made himself an icon for life with the Zarate win and then Sanchez' place as a Mexican icon was set for eternity with his win over Gomez who then went on to redeem himself somewhat in arguably the greatest of all Mexico-Puerto Rico fights with Gomez.

This rivalry was one that really hooked me into learning boxing history. I was 14 when Trinidad-De La Hoya was signed and Tito was my guy back then so I wanted to read absolutely everything on this fight. I was in the U.K at the time and Boxing Monthly had some excellent coverage on Mexico-Puerto Rico as did The Ring and all their sister publications. My Boxing history reading and watching interests at that point were the heavyweight division and then the names like Hagler, Leonard, Duran, Hearns and a few others. I decided to use my pocket money to order some VHS out of Boxing Monthly from a collector in there and got a lot of these fights like Sanchez-Gomez, Rosario-Ramirez, Gomez-Pintor etc; and it just clicked right there for me. I loved what I saw and got the Champions Forever: The Latin Legends documentary and started getting into all the great Latino fighters not just the Mexicans and Puerto Rican's and that's where I stumbled into some fighters I grew to absolutely adore like Jofre, Napoles, Arguello etc whilst obviously wearing out the VHS films of Gomez, Sanchez, Olivares, Trinidad etc;

Turns out Tito & Oscar was an awful fight but I was already hooked. But then the following year came Trinidad vs. Vargas

In regards to relatively few Mexican fighters having bouts in New York City, I believe that it is due to a number of factors. Their main fan base is in the Southwest or Mexico. Let alone New York City, Mexican fighters rarely had bouts in other American places located outside of the Southwest until the last few decades. Also keep in mind that New York City has declined greatly as a fight town over the last fifty or sixty years.

- Chuck Johnston

The Eye Of The Beholder


Chuck Johnston replied that New York City is not the big fight town like it was back in the days. You can say that about a lot of American burgs that put on the weekly card(s) and put out a lot of good fighters. Since the millennials are now the main stream focus of the media culture, boxing is on the undercard of MMA or Octagon fighting or whatever you call it. It's tough.It's brutal.But I don't care for it.I think it's sloppy and lacks the skills of a boxing match between two guys that know what they're doing in there. Chicago, where I'm from, has next to nothing when it comes to staging fights. New York certainly has dropped off. Oh,they'll put a big match in The Garden or Atlantic City,but the bread and butter weekly cards in those burough honky tonk arenas are a thing of the past. From my vantage point,the Southland(including Mexico) is the hot bed for boxing.The Mexican fighters who have proved their mettle south of the border come under contract eventually with the big promoters state side and if they're really good enough they will get that title shot in Las Vegas or someplace like San Antonio or Phoenix.

When I mention the Mexican fighters that have earned their dues in their home states, they've gotten that visibility in the same archaic fight arenas,bullrings,and ball parks that back in time featured the immortals:Kid Azteca,Manual Ortiz,Vicente Salvidar,Ruben Olivares,Carlos Zarate,and Julio Cesar Sr. In TJ most of the matches are in these bars I talk about. The fights aren't televised.The crowds are often on the skimpy side,but those fighters know that they're being watched. Hate to say it,but a promoter can pick up a pretty promising fella' for a pittance. I saw Luis Nery and Jorge Munguia fight on a card at the Municipal Auditorium. These two guys are very exciting to watch. They'll be making their big money now fighting at the Staples Center or the Mandalay Bay. More power to them.

But when you come down to it in this country, if you were to take two of these millennials who don't no nothing(when it comes to technology they run rings around me) and showed them Mayweather's fight with Canelo or any of Conor McGregor's fights,half way through the boxing match the millennial kid would be reaching for his I Phone. But here's the rub. You don't have to be trained or take a course to recognize "art".Yes, I'm referring to boxing as an "art".Sure there are better "painters"than others,but tell me this- watching Luis Rodriguez and Emile Griffith fight four times for example;if you don't get that then all I can say is that that old adage is true."Beauty s in the eye of the beholder." But they still don't know nothing.



Kid Azteca

A Title Workout

"Did you watch the fight?"I shouted at Jose.
"No,"he meekly replied."It's getting too expensive to rent up here."
I had driven my wife to the recycling place in back of the Mexican market in the strip mall. Jose and his brother Nacho run the place for the company. Jose was helping my wife get the bags of plastic bottles out of the trunk of the car.One of the homeless guys in the neighborhood comes in everyday to help.At the end of the day the brothers give him enough money so he can go and buy enough beer for the night.
"That's funny,"I said. "I went down to TJ the other night and met up with a few guys who normally watch the fights and they didn't see it either.'"
"It's free down there,"said Jose.
"They seemed disappointed that Canelo didn't knock this Jacobs out."
"Yeah,"said Jose looking at the ground holding a big trash bag of plastic bottles in each hand."What was Canelo doing anyway?"
"He got in a workout.Did you see the fight on replay?"
"Yeah."
"In the old days they would have scheduled that fight as a non title fight."
"What's that?"
"That's when the champion doesn't have his title on the line.It's not against a top ranked opponent."
"Why do that?"
"Well,they don't do it now because they can make more money calling it a "championship" fight.They hyped this fight up like Jacobs had a chance to beat him. Some boxing organization had him ranked number one getting people to buy into it.This Jacobs had a good record, but a little inflated if you know what I mean.The kid showed plenty of heart.Don't get me wrong.But Canelo just wanted to get in 12 good rounds. He knew after a minute or so that Jacobs couldn't hurt him. So he practiced what he normally works on in the gym. Looking for openings,combinations,defense. He even let Jacobs get some shots in to toughen himself up. But he knew that Jacobs couldn't hurt him.It did Canelo better than a sparring match. It was a 'real' fight.I laughed when the judges scored the fight close.It wasn't close at all.And those Brits doing the play by play talking like Jacobs was in the fight.What a joke."
"Triple G fights later."
"They got it all planned.Triple G is going to fight another kid with a "good" record.Hype it up like this kid has a chance,and then when Triple G and Canelo fight the rubber match you can buy tickets to go on the first rocket ship to the moon cheaper than going to the arena and watch that fight."
"Who do you think is going to win?Canelo or Triple G."
"Watching the last fight Triple G has slowed down. Lost some of that strength.Canelo is still in his prime.Getting better. I think he'll knock Triple G out."
"I think so too,"said Jose.
"That's the way I see it."
"I see it that way too."
"They say that 'perception is reality' ".
"The only thing I can see in the future that's going to happen for certain is that one day I'm going to die,"laughed Jose.
"Maybe when that day comes they can schedule it as a non title fight.That way you can buy a little more time."



Canelo Alvarez

The Comparision

When they debate about who was the greatest middleweight of all time,Sugar Ray Robinson's name comes up a lot.It's almost a gimmie when they put Robinson atop the welterweight fighters. What we have to see on film of Robinson is mostly his work in the middleweight division. There aren't many left around who saw Robinson at his best fighting Gavilan,Armstrong,Angott,Zivic,and LaMotta. We have the last fight,The St,. Valentine's Day Massacre, to view on YouTube.It was the closest Robbie was to Jake when it came to the weigh in. in their previous five fights Jake had a good 10 to 15 pounds on Robinson. We saw Robinson fight quite often on TV during the 50's and 60's.i saw him fight in the Tijuana bullring in his last year as a pro when he was 45 years old. During that time frame we saw an old Sugar Ray Robinson. He was still full of savvy,but his body was beginning to let him down,especially those spindly legs that did a Fred Astaire routine inside the ring pre retirement,but now as a heavier fighter,he moved his feet like his partner was stepping on his toes.

Robinson remarked that before the first Turpin fight that Randy's thickness through the arms and chest reminded Robinson of a "heavyweight."Robinson had a problem matching strength with a big middleweight. LaMotta was a barrel chested middleweight who made Robinson work hard in the ring. Fullmer was another thick middleweight who( though he got caught by the "perfect left hook" in Chicago)would bully Robinson inside the squared circle.

When Robinson was king of the welters he didn't indulge the cream of the crop 160 pounders.His Murderer's Black Row counterparts like Charley Burley ,Holman Williams,Ezzard Charles,Archie Moore,and Eddie Booker were fighting each other for chump change. The white guys like Cerdan,Zale,Graziano,and LaMotta were also familiar with each other,but with the exception of Jake,Sugar defended the welter title exclusively.Sometimes he'd move up to middleweight,but wouldn't have any title on the line and his opponent would be kind of pedestrian. Before his fight with Maxim(Joey was a light hitter and a boxer who couldn't push Robinson around)Robinson had clipped Graziano with the "perfect right hand" and decisioned Bobo Olsen-two middleweight champions.But this was before Joey.

Sugar Ray Robinson knew he was a great fighter,but he also knew his limitations. Giving away 5 to 10 pounds against guys like Charles,Moore,Cerdan,and Zale would have been monumental obstacles to overcome,but again, if anyone could have mastered the task it would have been Sugar Ray Robinson.


Randolph Turpin

Tim Conway one of the funniest comedians ever passed away this morning. Comedy today ,at least in the U.S. has turned into sarcasm at anyone's expense. Cruel and insensitive. Not funny at all.I should know.I've been a participant often enough.

Fighting Like One

I get these two guys mixed up all the time-Juan Diaz and Julio Diaz. Juan Diaz,whose nickname is "The Baby Bull",I've written about on the forum.I mentioned him because I thought he was born in the little ranchita that's on top of a mountain besides Jiquilpan,Michoacan where my wife and I have a house. The name of the ranchita is Paredones.That's where my wife was born. We were last up there a few weeks ago when we went to visit.Because of the poor economy and vulnerability to the criminal element there can't be more than a handful that live there now. The rub is that Paredones isn't where Juan Diaz was born,but the other Diaz, the other fighter,Julio. Julio's nickname is "The Kidd." Neither Diaz fights anymore,but that doesn't mean there might be a comeback waiting in the wings.

Julio Diaz was born in Patredones,Michoacan on Christmas Eve !979. When he was a year old he went with his family to the Coachella Valley in California.What they know of Julio in Paredones is that he resides in Indio,California. He has a brother,Joel,who was his trainer,and is related to former champ Antonio Diaz.

Both Diaz's were good fighters. Juan probably had the edge on Julio. They fought once against each other for the IBF Lightweight Title.Julio was wearing the belt at that time. Juan gave Julio a pretty good pounding in that one.But that was the apex of Juan Diaz's career. He lost his next outing and the crown to Nate Campbell. Two fights later Juan was matched against Juan Manual Marquez and was raking him over pretty good,but Marquez withstood the storm,gathered himself and went on to gore the Baby Bull

Now that I've written this down I won't get the two confused again. To think a champion fighter would emerge from a speck on the map like Paredones is really remarkable. But maybe if his family hadn't moved to California,Julio wouldn't have taken up boxing. It was in the Coachella Valley where he went to the gym and learned how to fight. Paredones is too small to have anything around like a boxing gym. Jiquilpan, that's down the mountain, has one gym,but I've never seen anyone in it.It's always closed every time I pass it.

But fighters like Julio Diaz are the backbone of the sport in Mexico. At one time Mexico had more registered fighters than all the other countries combined. It's the poor man's out if you're willing to pay the price. It's also a way to make a few pesos more than digging a ditch. But here's the thing that sticks in every Mexican fighter's mind. One day a top Mexican fighter,a world champ perhaps,will want a fight.A Mexican fighter puts more on the line than a "win" when he's fighting another Mexican.You can throw out the odds. Now the moment is for macho bragging rights. I remember when the lightly regarded Eloy Sanchez finished the career of the great Joe Becerra. Sanchez never duplicated anything like that post Becerra,but that night when he was in there with Joe past records were a moot point.

As I wrap this up I want to reiterate what I said about Oscar De La Hoya. He never lost to a Mexican fighter,Chicano or national. He went through Mexican fighters. He had that eye of the tiger. Oscar knew it was more than just a fight. It was for those macho bragging rights.There was something inside Oscar that he knew he had to beat a Mexican fighter. I think it had to do with the fact that Mexicans generally didn't take to him and that he was unlike them to an extent. He wasn't the cold blooded killer. Oscar was too much in the limelight and not in the cantinas singing and drinking with mariachis.He never fought in Mexico.The poor didn't identify with him. He was a pretty boy and he married a Puerto Rican. And of course,he was an American.Oscar used that resentment to dole out punishment when he was in there with a Mexican fighter..He was a very confident fighter against Mexicans. Sure,the Mexican nationals didn't like it when Oscar stopped their hero Chavez twice,but when Oscar was pitted against Trinidad,Moseley,Hopkins,PacMan,and Floyd, Mexico gave Oscar a pass. OK.We aren't that fond of you,but we're in your corner with those other guys. With those other guys Oscar fizzled. He wasn't the confident Oscar anymore. He gave away the last two rounds against Trinidad,He let up against Floyd.Hopkins had a whammy on him.He didn't want to go mano a mano with Manny.Against Mosley I couldn't figure what he was doing in there.

When Mexicans say about their countrymen that he fought "like a Mexican" that is an expression that holds a lot of weight-win,lose,or draw. With all the fame and belts and money that Oscar made fighting he'll never be remembered as a Mexican fighter who fought like one.


Oscar De La Hoya

Roger, Becerra retired very young. Right in his prime seemingly. Do you think that the death of Walt Ingram had an effect on him and took his desire to fight away?

Re: Juan Diaz. You know, I am a HUGE Marquez fan so I went to his fights with Diaz. The one in Houston was memorable. Spent some time with Marquez the evening before the fight and what a classy guy he is. So calm ahead of a huge fight.

I was sort of bad luck for the two Houston guys - Juan Diaz and Rocky Juarez. I attended Diaz' fights with Marquez, the Campbell fight in Cancun and Juarez' fights with Chris John (both), Linares. All losses apart from the lucky draw Juarez got with John in Houston. I have a friend who had a similar experience attending De La Hoya fights. He's 0-5 in fights my buddy attended.

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑16 May 2019, 18:46 Roger, Becerra retired very young. Right in his prime seemingly. Do you think that the death of Walt Ingram had an effect on him and took his desire to fight away?

Re: Juan Diaz. You know, I am a HUGE Marquez fan so I went to his fights with Diaz. The one in Houston was memorable. Spent some time with Marquez the evening before the fight and what a classy guy he is. So calm ahead of a huge fight.

I was sort of bad luck for the two Houston guys - Juan Diaz and Rocky Juarez. I attended Diaz' fights with Marquez, the Campbell fight in Cancun and Juarez' fights with Chris John (both), Linares. All losses apart from the lucky draw Juarez got with John in Houston. I have a friend who had a similar experience attending De La Hoya fights. He's 0-5 in fights my buddy attended.

Chris
Talking with Rodolfo Gonzalez,Becerra's nephew,he told me that Becerra's marriage was on the rocks and that he wasn't focused on boxing when he fought Sanchez. Marquez's fight with Juan Diaz was amazing. Diaz had him going early but Juan Manual composed himself to rally and stop the Baby Bull.That must have been quite an experience being with Marquez. Are you still going to Canastota to see Marquez get honored or did that already happen?

dagosd2000 wrote: ↑16 May 2019, 19:15 Chris
Talking with Rodolfo Gonzalez,Becerra's nephew,he told me that Becerra's marriage was on the rocks and that he wasn't focused on boxing when he fought Sanchez. Marquez's fight with Juan Diaz was amazing. Diaz had him going early but Juan Manual composed himself to rally and stop the Baby Bull.That must have been quite an experience being with Marquez. Are you still going to Canastota to see Marquez get honored or did that already happen?

Yeah, I will be going. It’s going to be next summer June 2020 when he gets inducted. Hopefully Rafael gets the votes too. Would be great seeing both brothers inducted together.

Everyone's A Champion

For a fighter to win a title belt is the ultimate goal.After he retires he can say that he was a "champion".But today there are so many different divisions, categories ,and federations that to hold a title doesn't hold the value that it once did. The "junior" and "super" categories are wedged between every division. There's even a "mini" flyweight division. I remember in the 50's and 60's the reputable "sub" categories were the junior lightweight and super middleweight divisions. As much as I thought that Nat Fleischer's Ring Magazine wanted to have the last word ,I thought that their rankings were close to the mark.

I worked with a fighter who briefly held the USA State Middleweight Title. He was so proud of that.He constantly named dropped that into every conversation when he brought up fighting.I was happy for him . I was happy that he was happy,but turning the clock back I couldn't see him beating the likes of a Monzon or Hagler for the unified belt.

Another ex fighter that had claimed the state featherweight title was wanting to know if I could send a picture of him to BoxRec so he could have his face match his name on his record. The picture showed him holding his state featherweight belt. When the editors cropped the photo they cut out the belt.The ex fighter was disappointed with their editing..

I can't blame any fighter wanting the public to know that his efforts in the ring produced a championship. But today all these titles seem to get lost in a hodge podge of officiousness.It started in the 70's when Larry Holmes started to leave the scene. Heavyweights like Pinklon Thomas,Bonecrusher Smith,Greg Page,John Tate,Mike Weaver,Tim Witherspoon,Ray Mercer,Tommy Morrison,and Bert Cooper were all at one time some version of a heavyweight champion.More power to them,but with those multitude of titles,the sport lost some credibility. The promoters were to blame. They wanted control and got it. They pay off boxing commissions ,who are their lap dogs ,to showcase their boys. They shake down contenders if they want to get a "title" shot.

Boxing is an unforgiving life. A fighter never knows what's in store the next time he goes out there. And when it comes to an end he thinks about his quality of life later When I used to frequent Burke Emery's joint,Champs,the clipped newspaper articles on the wall described his winning of the Canadian Light Heavyweight Title. At the time I don't think he could have beaten even an aged Archie Moore.He had a crossroad fight with Jose Torres in Madison Square Garden and was stopped. Bob Foster would have been too good for him. Willie Pastrano,Harold Johnson would have beaten him I think. Burke was the champ of the Canadian light heavies.,but he left off the "Canadian" on the sign on the door. But when he talked about his fistic past I wanted him to feel that in his prime he was one of the all time greats. Sometimes that's all a fighter has left:some scars,a little money,and a title belt he keeps on the mantle behind the bar.



Bob Foster

The Killer

So I read where Deontay Wilder wants to kill this guy he's fighting Saturday,Dominic Breazeale,because of something that happened several years ago at a hotel where both fighters,who were on the same card, were staying with their friends and family The details are sketchy,but it must have been something pretty serious for Wilder to come out saying publicly that "He(Breazeale)asked for this...This is the only sport where you can kill a man and get paid for it. So why not use my right to do so?If he dies he dies.If I say I'm going to kill a man everyone is going to tune in to see what happens."

I heard him talking on TV.He sounded pretty convincing. But what are the odds of Wilder killing this guy? 1,000,000 to 1? Mauricio Sulaiman,who heads up the WBC that's sanctioning the bout, is calling Wilder into his office to face a possible punishment for violating the WBC' code of ethics policy.

I think this whole thing is a P.T. Barnum stunt. What's Sulaiman gong to do ?Cancel the fight? Who goes for this kind of thing anyway? Wilder said that he turned to boxing because his daughter had some serious health issues and he figured that fighters make millions of dollars and he'd be able then to pay the hospital bills..So with that poignant thought,he wants to kill his opponent Saturday night.

Sports are supposed to be "sporting".Look up the synonyms."Gentlemanly,generous,considerate,good." A guy helps an old lady cross the street. You might say,"That was very sporting of you to do that." In war the object is to kill the opponent,the enemy.But sports?Even if it's boxing why would you want to kill the other guy?He has a wife and kids and a mother that worries about him.Think about how they'd feel if their beloved is killed in the ring and his conqueror had that idea in mind going into fight.

Off the top of my head I can remember Mike Tyson and George Foreman having desires to "kill" an opponent. Look what happened to them. Tyson loses in the biggest upset in ring annals and Foreman doesn't get up from the canvas in Zaire.The crowd was chanting "Ali bomaye(Ali kill him)' and though that didn't happen it was Foreman who thought about killing himself when it was over. If we look at Foreman now,he's had to have made the biggest personality transformation of all time. Big George turned himself into a Gentle Ben. Even Tyson has come down to earth somewhat.I say somewhat.At least he ain't going around saying he wants to kill anyone.

Joe Louis said the only fighter he wanted to punish in the ring was Galento because Tony kept it up behind his bar in Orange ,New Jersey that Louis was a "bum." Gee.Calling your opponent a "bum" today is like qualifying to join the Emily Post Institute.

Well,Deontay old man let's see what you're going to do Saturday. We hope no one gets killed including yourself But I've seen you fight. You've got a lot of holes.You keep your hands low. You punch slow. Your jab is nothing write home about.Your footwork is horrible.You get gassed in there. The time will come when some dude will come along and have you out cold, flat on your back. Then what?Take a page from George Foreman's notebook.You'll need it.


George Foreman

Not Even A Puncher's Chance

"You're were my favorite fighter,"I said.
I was talking to Jose Napoles out in front of his house in Ciudad Juarez,He was sitting on a chair smoking a cigar. The neighborhood was drab and dismal. The house was plain and modest.The sun was hiding behind a cloud.
"And who is your favorite fighter now?"he asked very deliberately.
"Oh I don't really have one,"
When Jose Napoles was in his prime he had captured Mexico by storm,. Though he was Cuban I thought he was more popular than Olivares. He was the most popular fighter in Mexico. There were some that wouldn't agree with me on that because he wasn't Mexican and he was black,but there weren't many. Jose Napoles had found a country that embraced him as one of their own and likewise jumped in with both feet. He had a Mexican wife when he was on top and now that he was sick and near the end he has another Mexican wife
"I saw you fight in Tijuana,"I said."Before you came to the United States."
He took a long puff on his cigar and smiled.
"Which time was that?"
"Against Herbie Lee."
The ex champ looked rangy and old and a little shaky,his twinkling eyes off somewhere else..The gaudy watch on his arm was too big for his wrist. The watch went up to his forearm.
"I also saw you fight at the Forum against Hedgemon Lewis."
"He was a rabbit that night,"he said smiling.
"You were one of the greatest fighters who ever lived."
"That was a long time ago.I have none of that left."
"You could beat anyone."
"Back then I had confidence and ability.I had money.I had women.I did anything I wanted."
"Now that fighting is over..."
"I have nothing left but my wife,"he interjected.
"Is she inside the house?"
"She's shopping. She'll be back soon."
He was at the end of the cigar he was smoking.
"I used to be feared.I went through life eating everything in front of me.My appetite was enormous. I had confidence. I was happy.I never looked over my shoulder."
"I followed your whole career."
"Today, I sit outside smoking my cigars and watching the people walk by.I'm sick and am afraid. My wife takes care of me."
I paused for a moment and watched him trying to relight his cigar.
"Do many people visit you?"I asked.
"Yes.I have friends and then there are the ones that are curious."
"I went by your gym.The Roma."
"It's still my gym.But these kids today don't want to put in the effort.There's a lock on the door now."
He finally got the stub of his cigar lit again.
"See those hills up there,"he said pointing out to the horizon."I ran up and down those hills everyday.I could see everything in front of me when I fought an opponent. I'd look at both of his shoulders and knew what he was going to do. Now I know very little except that I don't want to hurt anybody again."
He took his last puff on his cigar.
"My wife is out shopping. When she comes back she'll make you dinner."
"Next month there's going to be an awards ceremony in Los Angeles for fighters."
"You think I can go?"
"Of course. Give me your address and phone number and we'll put it together."
"I don't know it. I have to wait until my wife gets back from shopping."
"Here's my business card,"I said pulling it out from my wallet. "I've got to be going soon. If your wife doesn't get back call me at the number on the card."
I waited and we continued talking,but his wife didn't come back.
"I'll be back home tomorrow,"I said. "Call me and we'll get something done."
"Next week I'm going to Cuba,"he said."I want to go back to my hometown,Santiago de Cuba.I want to see my my mother and father and brother and uncles. I want to eat the raw oysters the vendors sell at the docks. Eat the sliced pineapples and mangos they put in the big ice cream soda glasses.See the old gym in back of the alley where I learned how to fight with Kid Rapidez and Ciro Morison,my idol..My uncles making bets that I could beat up all the other kids in the street."
"Don't forget to give me a call,"I said.
"I have an appointment with Castro.He wants to see me."
"Don't lose my card.I'll expect to hear from you."
"My wife should be home soon. I don't like being alone. It is good to have a wife. I can't hurt anyone anymore."
Before I turned away I handed him a twenty dollar bill.
"You can buy some more cigars with that amigo."
"My wife should be home soon. It's good to have a wife. I'm not like I used to be."

God bless Napoles. One of my favorite fighters in history as is Olivares. It must have been a lot of fun to see those two fight at The Forum back in the day. Maybe as fun as a night on the town with both. Both artists with mean left hooks and a penchant for fast living. It's good to see both are still with us today. Olivares seems to still have his marbles intact also.

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑19 May 2019, 15:24 God bless Napoles. One of my favorite fighters in history as is Olivares. It must have been a lot of fun to see those two fight at The Forum back in the day. Maybe as fun as a night on the town with both. Both artists with mean left hooks and a penchant for fast living. It's good to see both are still with us today. Olivares seems to still have his marbles intact also.

Jose Napoles at the top of his fame after beating Emile Griffith in Los Angeles

Jose Napoles today.Can't say he didn't leave his mark.

I watched the Griffith fight the other day. I've been re-watching some of these great Cuban boxers in the last few days - Rodriguez, Napoles, Ramos, Legra. Such a joy to watch. I am writing a piece on Rodriguez currently. I'd love to see if his family can be contacted and have a strong interest in his career.

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑19 May 2019, 16:49 I watched the Griffith fight the other day. I've been re-watching some of these great Cuban boxers in the last few days - Rodriguez, Napoles, Ramos, Legra. Such a joy to watch. I am writing a piece on Rodriguez currently. I'd love to see if his family can be contacted and have a strong interest in his career.

Good luck with that.Sounds very interesting. You might want to PM Enrique Encinosa who wrote the book Hard Leather about Cuban fighters.He posts once in awhile. He's also based in Miami. He might give you some ideas about where to contact Rodriguez's family and friends.

dagosd2000 wrote: ↑19 May 2019, 17:05 Good luck with that.Sounds very interesting. You might want to PM Enrique Encinosa who wrote the book Hard Leather about Cuban fighters.He posts once in awhile. He's also based in Miami. He might give you some ideas about where to contact Rodriguez's family and friends.

Excellent. Yes, I would very much like to do that. I will send him a message tomorrow. Thanks.

The Greatest Who Might Have Been

When Luis Rodriguez came to San Diego to prepare for the title elimination bout with Rafael Gutierrez I remember him being interviewed on the local station.He was asked about his thoughts about the upcoming bout,but all he wanted to talk about was his four fight series with Emile Griffith.
"I beat Griffith four times but they rob me ,"he frantically tried to explain.
The interviewer went on trying to get Rodriguez focused on his fight with the Mexican middleweight champion at the Sports Arena,but Luis brushed him off.
"I should have been the welterweight champion all that time,but they rob me,"he protested.

Rodriguez was putting on the finishing touches on his training at the Stardust Hotel in Mission Valley. Angelo Dundee had arrived to keep an eye on things,but it was obvious that Luis was calling the shots everyday about how he was going to conduct his workouts. He was in a surly mood and didn't back off on his sparring partners.Local fighters Charley "Bad News" Austin,Johnny Wise,and Victor Basilio(who fought on the undercard) provided the practice opposition. Wise,I remember,didn't want to wear a headgear because he claimed he had a facial rash and didn't want to get punched in the face. When he tried to explain to Rodriguez about the irritation all that did was irritate Luis. He threw the headgear at Wise and told him if he didn't put it on he could go home.Wise sulked,put on the headgear,and proceeded to get bashed around the ring by Rodriguez.

On fight night Jose Napoles came down from LA to sit near his fellow Cuban's corner. Napoles was beginning to prepare for a defense of his title with Emile Griffith,Luis's nemesis. Luis had grown out of the welterweights for several years was exhibiting similar success that he had displayed at 147. I'm sure it was in Jose's mind about Griffith's fights with Rodriguez,and of course the tragic Paret affair. Napoles knew that Emile was as wily an opponent that he would ever face in the ring. But Jose had a few more tricks up his sleeve than Emile and won by a good margin. I later asked Griffith at a boxing event in LA about who was the best fighter he ever faced. "Jose Napoles" was the reply. Some say that Griffith was "dried out" coming back down to the welterweight limits,but it was Napoles who had a three pound weight advantage. Just for the record I thought some of the refugee Cuban fighters made an agreement between each other. Paret would (who was a stronger fighter at 135)would try to master the welters.Napoles (who I thought was a natural super welter)would try to bring the 147 title into his realm,especially since Benny wasn't there .Rodriguez would abandon the welters and move up to test the middleweights.It would have been a great fight to see Luis and Jose fight each other,maybe at 150 pounds.But the two never met and I think it was agreed between them.

Anyway,Rodriguez rallied to stop Gutierrez with a single left hook mid way through the fight. That win put him in there with Benvenuti for the championship. I thought Luis could outbox Nino ,and he was doing it,when he got caught with a single left hook that spelled lights out. After that night there were no more championship fights for Luis.However, he still was something to deal with all the way up to the end.But the legacy would have been a 180 if the stars hadn't have been crossed against him with Griffith.

I believe Rodriguez had the shortest reign of any welterweight champion-less than 90 days.Then I go back to that interview in San Diego. He wanted the world to know that the judges got it wrong. They did Those bum calls and Luis not seeing Nino's big left hook coming would have made put Rodriguez in the elite pantheon of boxing legends. A first pick in the IBHOF. A fighter mentioned in the same breath as Leonard,Duran,Hearns,and Hagler.

But the people who saw him train in Chris Dundee's 5th Street Gym in Miami realized what they were witnessing was a superbly conditioned skilled fighter whose style was emulated by a young Cassius Clay. Sugar Ray Robinson might have been his idol,but what we saw from Cassius was a Luis Rodriguez in the works.

Call Luis Rodriguez one of the greatest fighters who should have been would be a travesty. He was his loudest advocate of his caliber as a fighter. He wanted to get the word out that's all. Maybe it was sour grapes,but he got screwed and the scribes and the public didn't put up much of a clamor. Luis is not with us any longer. Neither are the fighters who fought him nor the brain trust that was with him. 90 days as champ for a great fighter like Luis? Let's get the word out and make it household.


Luis Rodriguez

Rodriguez was incredible and a joy to watch. It’s really a travesty that he only held the title for three months and that he didn’t get a Middleweight title shot until he was shopworn. For him to dismantle middleweights the quality of Briscoe, Carter, Benton, Moyer, Giambra, Mims, McClure etc etc; whilst being heavily outweighed says it all.

Like you say, score at least one of those Griffith fights his way (correctly basically) and maybe he gets a shot at Giardello or Tiger and my guess is that he’s have defeated either or both. Luis is not revered the way he deserves to be. The man was an incredible fighter with few equals.

Inside The Box

Joe Brown,Denny Moyer,Gaspar Ortega-I remember growing up watching those guys fight on TV. Carlos Ortiz,Benny Paret,Carmen Basilio-The fights were aired three nights a week back then. Joey Giardello,Gene Fullmer,Kid Gavilan-Their faces were on the screen as often as Maris and Mantle. Those TV's,bulky with all the gas tubes inside the back where you could go down to the supermarket and test them on this machine to see if they were good anymore. The screens were no more than 20 inches,often much smaller, and there was no remote control .You got up from your chair to switch the channel or you told the youngest kid in the room to do it. Three big control knobs:Off/On,brightness,and volume. You moved the "rabbit ears" on top of the set trying to get a clearer picture,but there was still always some static and snow. Sometimes you'd put some aluminum foil on the antenna trying to enhance the reception. Maybe your imagination made you think it was better. The fights were always in black and white and were grainy anyway.

The fighters fought in arenas with names like Olympia,St. Nicks,and The Cow Palace.There was just one announcer,no "color" man. It was Jack Drees,Don Dunphy,or Chris Schenkel.The fights on the radio were really exciting to hear. A broadcaster who could give you the blow by blow during a fight was hardest thing to announce.But it was always better to watch it on TV.

One fighter wore black trunks with the white stripe.the other,white trunks with the black stripe. There were no baggy trunks or ones slit up the sides. A fighter's shoes were black except the ones on Clay's feet or some of the Cuban fighters. No pre fight interviews or cameras in the dressing room. No weigh ins on TV.The mad dog stare downs,the trash talking,the tight ass girls in the g strings smiling blankly beside the fighters. Don King wasn't there holding the American flag.ESPN and the multitude of sports programs that were on 24/7 were off far away in a vacuum.that we didn't anticipate.

The fights came on at 8 o'clock and when it was over maybe they talked to the winner, and then you waited for the Late Show to come on. Next week there'd be another three fights with the likes of Willie Pasrtano,Sonny Liston,or Archie Moore. 52 weeks a year times 3-that was a lot of good stuff to put on a fan's palate.it was all inside that little box every week.

Today that picture screen has widened to stretch across a living room.The picture is in High Definition color. The fighters make their way into the ring inundated by swirling strobe lights,flood lamps,and the blaring of rap music and corridas,The trunks are custom designed with sequins and advertising.The fighters' bodies are lined with so many tattoos that it looks like they are walking atlases.They pay Michael Buffer 5 million dollars to say "Let's Get Ready To Rumble." There are at least 3 announcers in the booth.They react hysterically with every punch landed, or not.If the hyped up fight slows to a walk they'll feed you a bunch of lies trying to make you believe you're seeing something significant. There are CompuBox numbers,power punching counts,and replays from every angle.

Seeing what's on Pay Per View today is an exercise in top echelon salesmanship. When fighters aren't as good as they're talked up to be,the Madison Avenue ilk throws on the afterburners.. Great fighters who aren't that great anymore are still a commodity because we're led to believe there are as good as they once were.Or the there's the fighter with the undefeated record who has fought names that are just that-something as common as you'd see in the phone book.

Don't get me going on the triad of Wilder,Joshua,and Fury. They've bought into their press releases. They think they have the whole world at their feet. A cult following.The word "entertainer" or maybe "star" is coupled with the description of their livelihood. There is no shortage of microphones in their faces.

I liked it better the way it was,but I know we'll never see that again. The people under 40 wouldn't understand it. Watching a fight not in color from a square wooden box?That right there would tell them that it couldn't be much of a fight.



Gaspar Ortega

dagosd2000 wrote: ↑19 May 2019, 20:07 The Greatest Who Might Have Been

When Luis Rodriguez came to San Diego to prepare for the title elimination bout with Rafael Gutierrez I remember him being interviewed on the local station.He was asked about his thoughts about the upcoming bout,but all he wanted to talk about was his four fight series with Emile Griffith.
"I beat Griffith four times but they rob me ,"he frantically tried to explain.
The interviewer went on trying to get Rodriguez focused on his fight with the Mexican middleweight champion at the Sports Arena,but Luis brushed him off.
"I should have been the welterweight champion all that time,but they rob me,"he protested.

Rodriguez was putting on the finishing touches on his training at the Stardust Hotel in Mission Valley. Angelo Dundee had arrived to keep an eye on things,but it was obvious that Luis was calling the shots everyday about how he was going to conduct his workouts. He was in a surly mood and didn't back off on his sparring partners.Local fighters Charley "Bad News" Austin,Johnny Wise,and Victor Basilio(who fought on the undercard) provided the practice opposition. Wise,I remember,didn't want to wear a headgear because he claimed he had a facial rash and didn't want to get punched in the face. When he tried to explain to Rodriguez about the irritation all that did was irritate Luis. He threw the headgear at Wise and told him if he didn't put it on he could go home.Wise sulked,put on the headgear,and proceeded to get bashed around the ring by Rodriguez.

On fight night Jose Napoles came down from LA to sit near his fellow Cuban's corner. Napoles was beginning to prepare for a defense of his title with Emile Griffith,Luis's nemesis. Luis had grown out of the welterweights for several years was exhibiting similar success that he had displayed at 147. I'm sure it was in Jose's mind about Griffith's fights with Rodriguez,and of course the tragic Paret affair. Napoles knew that Emile was as wily an opponent that he would ever face in the ring. But Jose had a few more tricks up his sleeve than Emile and won by a good margin. I later asked Griffith at a boxing event in LA about who was the best fighter he ever faced. "Jose Napoles" was the reply. Some say that Griffith was "dried out" coming back down to the welterweight limits,but it was Napoles who had a three pound weight advantage. Just for the record I thought some of the refugee Cuban fighters made an agreement between each other. Paret would (who was a stronger fighter at 135)would try to master the welters.Napoles (who I thought was a natural super welter)would try to bring the 147 title into his realm,especially since Benny wasn't there .Rodriguez would abandon the welters and move up to test the middleweights.It would have been a great fight to see Luis and Jose fight each other,maybe at 150 pounds.But the two never met and I think it was agreed between them.

Anyway,Rodriguez rallied to stop Gutierrez with a single left hook mid way through the fight. That win put him in there with Benvenuti for the championship. I thought Luis could outbox Nino ,and he was doing it,when he got caught with a single left hook that spelled lights out. After that night there were no more championship fights for Luis.However, he still was something to deal with all the way up to the end.But the legacy would have been a 180 if the stars hadn't have been crossed against him with Griffith.

I believe Rodriguez had the shortest reign of any welterweight champion-less than 90 days.Then I go back to that interview in San Diego. He wanted the world to know that the judges got it wrong. They did Those bum calls and Luis not seeing Nino's big left hook coming would have made put Rodriguez in the elite pantheon of boxing legends. A first pick in the IBHOF. A fighter mentioned in the same breath as Leonard,Duran,Hearns,and Hagler.

But the people who saw him train in Chris Dundee's 5th Street Gym in Miami realized what they were witnessing was a superbly conditioned skilled fighter whose style was emulated by a young Cassius Clay. Sugar Ray Robinson might have been his idol,but what we saw from Cassius was a Luis Rodriguez in the works.

Call Luis Rodriguez one of the greatest fighters who should have been would be a travesty. He was his loudest advocate of his caliber as a fighter. He wanted to get the word out that's all. Maybe it was sour grapes,but he got screwed and the scribes and the public didn't put up much of a clamor. Luis is not with us any longer. Neither are the fighters who fought him nor the brain trust that was with him. 90 days as champ for a great fighter like Luis? Let's get the word out and make it household.


Luis Rodriguez

Rog, I watched Griffith v Rodriguez III and IV and simply put, I cannot in any way make a case for Griffith in either fight. It just seemed to me like Luis' bodywork was simply ignored. I had him the comfortable winner in both fights and agree that he does have a cause to gripe. A great fighter.