BoxRec

Seamus wrote: ↑10 May 2022, 13:18 By the way, I thought Mike Perez might turn out to be a pretty good heavyweight some years ago. He showed some promise, but in his last several bouts in that class he looked a little heavy. He got himself in much better shape now, and is considerably lighter. Instead of cleaning out the heavyweights though he now fights as a Cruiserweight

The fighters and their trainers clearly appreciate the added difficulty in moving up to HW. My guess is they have a better idea than we do.

Ezzard wrote: ↑10 May 2022, 12:42

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 May 2022, 11:06

Ezzard wrote: ↑10 May 2022, 10:54 I'll keep an open mind. When your 190 lb messiah takes the HW throne you can say I told you so. Until then...

Sorry, guess 193 doesn't count.

It can in your mind. Pretty sparse evidence. But if you want to call Jones a HW champion sort of shows how little proof there is.

Umm, you have Ezzard Charles beating David Tua.
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=253835

Let me know when we have a 400 pound champ.

Controversial wrote: ↑10 May 2022, 11:07

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 May 2022, 10:49

Ezzard wrote: ↑10 May 2022, 09:07 Jones had no future at HW and knew it. He beat a hand-picked belt holder (though what's new there?). And brought in a ref who was on-narrative.

Jones would have been cracked by almost all previous HW champs regardless of their size.

Love that people are now whining that the referee was not letting the fighters clinch.
How many times have people complained about too much clinching? But when the smaller guy wins, it's a crybaby excuse.

As for how Jones would have done, again it's he would have lost if he fought this guy or that guy. Without getting used to the extra, he beat one of the best heavyweights in the world.
He was 5'11. 193 pounds. 74 inch reach. Happened with the the last 30 years.
When it actually happened, in real life, Jones won.

Why did RJJ not stay at HW then?

I don't know. I will ask him at our Pilates class.

So just be clear, Ernie Terrell (about the same size as Wilder) would have done very well in the last 30 years or so.
Joe Louis and Jack Dempsey would have been screwed.

We don't have a 400 lb champ. We did have one who successfully defended at 328 though.

That would be the same guy who had more trouble with John Ruiz than the 193 pound Roy Jones had with Ruiz.
The same guy who managed to lose to the 217 pound David Haye.
(Boy the heavyweight division has been awesome the last 20 years or so.)
But he had some title defenses. And well know how important the sheer number of those are.

Again, how would Dempsey and Louis done against a big heavyweight?
Going to keep ducking this one?

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 May 2022, 16:48 That would be the same guy who had more trouble with John Ruiz than the 193 pound Roy Jones had with Ruiz.
The same guy who managed to lose to the 217 pound David Haye.
(Boy the heavyweight division has been awesome the last 20 years or so.)
But he had some title defenses. And well know how important the sheer number of those are.

Again, how would Dempsey and Louis done against a big heavyweight?
Going to keep ducking this one?

Old Holyfield did great against him also.

Dempsey and Louis would probably score some big wins at Heavyweight, but the law of averages would catch up with them much sooner than it did in the eras they actually fought in.

I don't see a 400 lb champion in my lifetime, and I don't see a dominant 205 pounder either.

Valuev shows the importance of size if anything, basically he had nothing else of note yet still won a title and made the top 10. he only lost by md to haye despite haye being vastly more talented and skillful. you will never see the same be true of someone based on being unusually small for a division though. 'he was just too little in there for me!' lol

guys who fight much smaller opponents are going to overperform relative to their p4p ability more than not, obviously it doesnt mean theyll beat everyone, and im pretty sure no one suggested that

this dempsey/marciano/johnson/midget drago heavyweight #1 just isnt showing up is he, for decades and decades, despite every incentive for top fighters of this size (modern light heavys and smaller today) to rule the heavys if they could

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 May 2022, 16:12

Ezzard wrote: ↑10 May 2022, 12:42

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 May 2022, 11:06

Sorry, guess 193 doesn't count.

It can in your mind. Pretty sparse evidence. But if you want to call Jones a HW champion sort of shows how little proof there is.

Umm, you have Ezzard Charles beating David Tua.
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=253835

Let me know when we have a 400 pound champ.

Not sure why you've sent this to me?

Seamus wrote: ↑10 May 2022, 17:05 Dempsey and Louis would probably score some big wins at Heavyweight, but the law of averages would catch up with them much sooner than it did in the eras they actually fought in.

I don't see a 400 lb champion in my lifetime, and I don't see a dominant 205 pounder either.

I agree. Nobody here thinks that a fight is won solely on size. But it's a big advantage that cannot be overlooked.

I'm a romantic. I want to believe that Dempsey and Louis roll into town and decimate all opposition. But it's not happening. And it hasn't happened.

Back in 1985 I remember articles about how Holmes was just too big for the past greats to deal with. It's not like this is a new theory.

Clearly the top trainers in the world don't think it's a good idea either.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 May 2022, 16:17

Controversial wrote: ↑10 May 2022, 11:07

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 May 2022, 10:49

Love that people are now whining that the referee was not letting the fighters clinch.
How many times have people complained about too much clinching? But when the smaller guy wins, it's a crybaby excuse.

As for how Jones would have done, again it's he would have lost if he fought this guy or that guy. Without getting used to the extra, he beat one of the best heavyweights in the world.
He was 5'11. 193 pounds. 74 inch reach. Happened with the the last 30 years.
When it actually happened, in real life, Jones won.

Why did RJJ not stay at HW then?

I don't know. I will ask him at our Pilates class.

So just be clear, Ernie Terrell (about the same size as Wilder) would have done very well in the last 30 years or so.
Joe Louis and Jack Dempsey would have been screwed.

Once again no one has ever said size trumps everything. Of course they would have some success but giving away a lot in height, reach and weight will pose them problems. How many tall and big HWs were there in those times that are considered good fighters?

Louis had the size advantage in most of his fights, I think only around 10 opponents were actually heavier than him and even then sometimes only by a pound or two. The only ones that anyone really knows that had a significant weight advantage were Abe Simon (6'4"), Buddy Baer (6'6"), Tony Galento (5'9") and Primo Carnera (6'5"). Would anyone really say these would be successful today? Louis struggled with Conn who was said to only weigh 169 when they first fought. Officially Conn was still only 174. Louis is said by many to be the greatest HW in history. He was a great fighter but can you honestly see anyone weighing 169 (or 174) giving the best HWs of today trouble?

Size alone means nothing.

Excellent example is Jack Dempsey was training for Tommy Gibbons and a novelty heavyweight by the name of Benjamin Wray showed up to do an exhibition fight with the heavyweight champion. Wray was allegedly 4-0-0 (4) as a professional, although I have never seen evidence for this, but the man stood 7'2" and weighed close to 300 pounds.

Needless to say it took Dempsey roughly 60 seconds to not only knock the man out cold but also broke his jaw in the process. It was a publicity stunt that was much needed but the title match out in Montana was still a financial disaster which bankrupted the town.

Now had it been someone like Valuev, who had a modicum of ability and conditioning with a fairly good jab--- it most likely would have went the entire 12 round distance with Dempsey winning the decision. Wray had no talent or ability, whereas Valuev did have some talent and ability.

Throw in Dempsey against the likes of Lennox Lewis, Tyson Fury, or the Klitschko brothers... It would have been interesting but I'm not so sure that the man from Manassas Colorado would have been able to win. Dempsey did beat a lot of large men, like Fred Fulton and Jess Willard --- but those men had the mobility of a skyscraper and their skill set was basically average. They were wide open to be hit.

I always wonder how history would have turned out had Luther McCarty didn't die when he did. He was 6'4" and 220 pounds and he had athleticism to go with his size. Dempsey never quite fought a man who was big who was also athletic and skilled.

Controversial wrote: ↑11 May 2022, 07:07

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 May 2022, 16:17

Controversial wrote: ↑10 May 2022, 11:07

Why did RJJ not stay at HW then?

I don't know. I will ask him at our Pilates class.

So just be clear, Ernie Terrell (about the same size as Wilder) would have done very well in the last 30 years or so.
Joe Louis and Jack Dempsey would have been screwed.

Once again no one has ever said size trumps everything. Of course they would have some success but giving away a lot in height, reach and weight will pose them problems. How many tall and big HWs were there in those times that are considered good fighters?

Louis had the size advantage in most of his fights, I think only around 10 opponents were actually heavier than him and even then sometimes only by a pound or two. The only ones that anyone really knows that had a significant weight advantage were Abe Simon (6'4"), Buddy Baer (6'6"), Tony Galento (5'9") and Primo Carnera (6'5"). Would anyone really say these would be successful today? Louis struggled with Conn who was said to only weigh 169 when they first fought. Officially Conn was still only 174. Louis is said by many to be the greatest HW in history. He was a great fighter but can you honestly see anyone weighing 169 (or 174) giving the best HWs of today trouble?

People are not sayin that size means everything, but they are coming close.
Fighters are brushed off without a thought because of their size. That is is putting too much

Would anyone say that Simon, Baer, and Carnera would be successful today?
Yes I would.
Why wouldn't they be? Please tell.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑11 May 2022, 11:03

Controversial wrote: ↑11 May 2022, 07:07

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 May 2022, 16:17
I don't know. I will ask him at our Pilates class.

So just be clear, Ernie Terrell (about the same size as Wilder) would have done very well in the last 30 years or so.
Joe Louis and Jack Dempsey would have been screwed.

Once again no one has ever said size trumps everything. Of course they would have some success but giving away a lot in height, reach and weight will pose them problems. How many tall and big HWs were there in those times that are considered good fighters?

Louis had the size advantage in most of his fights, I think only around 10 opponents were actually heavier than him and even then sometimes only by a pound or two. The only ones that anyone really knows that had a significant weight advantage were Abe Simon (6'4"), Buddy Baer (6'6"), Tony Galento (5'9") and Primo Carnera (6'5"). Would anyone really say these would be successful today? Louis struggled with Conn who was said to only weigh 169 when they first fought. Officially Conn was still only 174. Louis is said by many to be the greatest HW in history. He was a great fighter but can you honestly see anyone weighing 169 (or 174) giving the best HWs of today trouble?

People are not sayin that size means everything, but they are coming close.
Fighters are brushed off without a thought because of their size. That is is putting too much

Would anyone say that Simon, Baer, and Carnera would be successful today?
Yes I would.
Why wouldn't they be? Please tell.

They were nothing special were they, Carnera walked about the ring with his hands in front of his belly, his success was largely to do with his size and strength, not his boxing ability. We've established a good fighter can beat big fighters when they aren't that skilled, Louis was a great fighter, they weren't.

Going back to my question, can you honestly see anyone weighing in at 169 (or 174) giving the best HWs of today much trouble like Conn did with Louis? A light punching one at that.


.

I thought Bob Pastor gave Louis trouble in their first bout as well. He showed superior head, hand and foot movement but couldn't match Louis's power.

Glad to see we are now making arguments for smaller fighters now.

So Louis beat bigger fighters handily and struggled with smaller ones. Interesting.

Controversial wrote: ↑11 May 2022, 13:12

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑11 May 2022, 11:03

Controversial wrote: ↑11 May 2022, 07:07

Once again no one has ever said size trumps everything. Of course they would have some success but giving away a lot in height, reach and weight will pose them problems. How many tall and big HWs were there in those times that are considered good fighters?

Louis had the size advantage in most of his fights, I think only around 10 opponents were actually heavier than him and even then sometimes only by a pound or two. The only ones that anyone really knows that had a significant weight advantage were Abe Simon (6'4"), Buddy Baer (6'6"), Tony Galento (5'9") and Primo Carnera (6'5"). Would anyone really say these would be successful today? Louis struggled with Conn who was said to only weigh 169 when they first fought. Officially Conn was still only 174. Louis is said by many to be the greatest HW in history. He was a great fighter but can you honestly see anyone weighing 169 (or 174) giving the best HWs of today trouble?

People are not sayin that size means everything, but they are coming close.
Fighters are brushed off without a thought because of their size. That is is putting too much

Would anyone say that Simon, Baer, and Carnera would be successful today?
Yes I would.
Why wouldn't they be? Please tell.

They were nothing special were they, Carnera walked about the ring with his hands in front of his belly, his success was largely to do with his size and strength, not his boxing ability. We've established a good fighter can beat big fighters when they aren't that skilled, Louis was a great fighter, they weren't.

Going back to my question, can you honestly see anyone weighing in at 169 (or 174) giving the best HWs of today much trouble like Conn did with Louis? A light punching one at that.


.

Carnera, Abe Simon and Baer were nothing special. They were good but not great.
Obviously Carnera had weaknesses. However, he is the only fighter over 220 has a victory over a great fighter under 200. He had something.
He had a good jab. (Not the automatic good jab that tall fighters usually get credit for). He had some power. He had a good work rate (virtually unheard of these days with heavyweights). He was tough.

Look at some of the top guys recently. Luis Ortiz. Joseph Parker. Dillian White. Andy Ruiz who actually beat Joshua who were some people are still saying is great. None of them are special. At all.

Carnera, Simon, and Baer would all be in the top 10 today.
You said that we established that a good fighter can beat big fighters when they aren't skilled. Well Conn was a great fighter. How many skilled hws are there currently? The Elusive One and Usyk. Wilder has a big punch and little more.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑11 May 2022, 15:42

Controversial wrote: ↑11 May 2022, 13:12

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑11 May 2022, 11:03

People are not sayin that size means everything, but they are coming close.
Fighters are brushed off without a thought because of their size. That is is putting too much

Would anyone say that Simon, Baer, and Carnera would be successful today?
Yes I would.
Why wouldn't they be? Please tell.

They were nothing special were they, Carnera walked about the ring with his hands in front of his belly, his success was largely to do with his size and strength, not his boxing ability. We've established a good fighter can beat big fighters when they aren't that skilled, Louis was a great fighter, they weren't.

Going back to my question, can you honestly see anyone weighing in at 169 (or 174) giving the best HWs of today much trouble like Conn did with Louis? A light punching one at that.


.

Carnera, Abe Simon and Baer were nothing special. They were good but not great.
Obviously Carnera had weaknesses. However, he is the only fighter over 220 has a victory over a great fighter under 200. He had something.
He had a good jab. (Not the automatic good jab that tall fighters usually get credit for). He had some power. He had a good work rate (virtually unheard of these days with heavyweights). He was tough.

Look at some of the top guys recently. Luis Ortiz. Joseph Parker. Dillian White. Andy Ruiz who actually beat Joshua who were some people are still saying is great. None of them are special. At all.

Carnera, Simon, and Baer would all be in the top 10 today.
You said that we established that a good fighter can beat big fighters when they aren't skilled. Well Conn was a great fighter. How many skilled hws are there currently? The Elusive One and Usyk. Wilder has a big punch and little more.

You are still avoiding the question. Can you honestly see anyone weighing in at 169 (or 174) giving the best HWs of today much trouble like Conn did with Louis? A light punching one at that.

Not exactly Alp. Tyson Fury, Lennox Lewis, the Klitschko's etc would swat Conn and Pastor like flies,, In my opinion that is

Seamus wrote: ↑11 May 2022, 19:55 Not exactly Alp. Tyson Fury, Lennox Lewis, the Klitschko's etc would swat Conn and Pastor like flies,, In my opinion that is

He'll ramble on and on. This is the umpteenth iteration of this topic.

Controversial wrote: ↑11 May 2022, 16:34

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑11 May 2022, 15:42

Controversial wrote: ↑11 May 2022, 13:12

They were nothing special were they, Carnera walked about the ring with his hands in front of his belly, his success was largely to do with his size and strength, not his boxing ability. We've established a good fighter can beat big fighters when they aren't that skilled, Louis was a great fighter, they weren't.

Going back to my question, can you honestly see anyone weighing in at 169 (or 174) giving the best HWs of today much trouble like Conn did with Louis? A light punching one at that.


.

Carnera, Abe Simon and Baer were nothing special. They were good but not great.
Obviously Carnera had weaknesses. However, he is the only fighter over 220 has a victory over a great fighter under 200. He had something.
He had a good jab. (Not the automatic good jab that tall fighters usually get credit for). He had some power. He had a good work rate (virtually unheard of these days with heavyweights). He was tough.

Look at some of the top guys recently. Luis Ortiz. Joseph Parker. Dillian White. Andy Ruiz who actually beat Joshua who were some people are still saying is great. None of them are special. At all.

Carnera, Simon, and Baer would all be in the top 10 today.
You said that we established that a good fighter can beat big fighters when they aren't skilled. Well Conn was a great fighter. How many skilled hws are there currently? The Elusive One and Usyk. Wilder has a big punch and little more.

You are still avoiding the question. Can you honestly see anyone weighing in at 169 (or 174) giving the best HWs of today much trouble like Conn did with Louis? A light punching one at that.

I could see Conn giving anyone fighting today trouble. This is the part where we look at the numbers on the scale and dismiss Conn automatically. Nothing more to see here.
Just a total coincidence that Louis had a lot more trouble with Conn than he did with guys who are about the same size as the recent heavyweights. Lets ignore what happened in real life. Lets just look at the numbers and laugh.

A guy 5'3 couldn't play in the NBA. Except it happened.

And why couldn't Carnera, Simon and Baer be contenders today?

There's a reason why Andre Ward didn't challenge Tyson Fury. If we keep talking I think we'll get there.

billy conn vs aj, what happens

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑12 May 2022, 10:40

Controversial wrote: ↑11 May 2022, 16:34

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑11 May 2022, 15:42

Carnera, Abe Simon and Baer were nothing special. They were good but not great.
Obviously Carnera had weaknesses. However, he is the only fighter over 220 has a victory over a great fighter under 200. He had something.
He had a good jab. (Not the automatic good jab that tall fighters usually get credit for). He had some power. He had a good work rate (virtually unheard of these days with heavyweights). He was tough.

Look at some of the top guys recently. Luis Ortiz. Joseph Parker. Dillian White. Andy Ruiz who actually beat Joshua who were some people are still saying is great. None of them are special. At all.

Carnera, Simon, and Baer would all be in the top 10 today.
You said that we established that a good fighter can beat big fighters when they aren't skilled. Well Conn was a great fighter. How many skilled hws are there currently? The Elusive One and Usyk. Wilder has a big punch and little more.

You are still avoiding the question. Can you honestly see anyone weighing in at 169 (or 174) giving the best HWs of today much trouble like Conn did with Louis? A light punching one at that.

I could see Conn giving anyone fighting today trouble. This is the part where we look at the numbers on the scale and dismiss Conn automatically. Nothing more to see here.
Just a total coincidence that Louis had a lot more trouble with Conn than he did with guys who are about the same size as the recent heavyweights. Lets ignore what happened in real life. Lets just look at the numbers and laugh.

A guy 5'3 couldn't play in the NBA. Except it happened.

And why couldn't Carnera, Simon and Baer be contenders today?

You can see a 169lb light punching Conn outboxing the top HWs of today, serious? Actually weighing 169 too?

How do you think an NBA team of all 5'3" players versus a NBA team where they are all 6'6"+ would go?

Carnera etc would all have some success just like any other average HW can have success. They were nothing special but any big bloke with a certain amount of ability can give someone a fight. What they would have if their favour is the physical dimensions and weight to be on a level playing field with the HWs of today.