Classic American West Coast Boxing

dagosd2000
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

Telling Me Something My Eyes Don't See

I was watching the highlights of the fight between Stanley Ketchel and Billy Papke,the rubber match.It was on one those ESPN classic fight series.I forget who was doing the moderating. Anyway, they're showing this thing and the guy who's doing the moderating is saying that "Many consider Ketchel as the greatest middleweight who ever lived." Now I'm watching this ,and it ain't the first time,and I can't see how one could think Stanley Ketchel is the greatest middleweight of all time.These two are doing mostly holding and clinching and the referee needs a crowbar to pull 'em apart. Then when they're separated they stand back and stare at each other with their hands down.Then one guy lunges and they fall back into a clinch and the referee trying to pull them apart and this goes on for 20 rounds.

I'll stick with Ketchel ,but Papke is a carbon copy. No footwork,nor hand speed to mention. Defense you can throw out the window ,and the all the while this moderator is saying what you're witnessing is one of the great classic fights of all time with all the crowd noise dubbed in the back.If this guy thinks I'm going to turn off my machine believing that Stanley Ketchel could be considered the greatest middleweight ever he can try to convince me to buy the Brooklyn Bridge.

We can also see ketchel in there with Jack Johnson. That thing was supposed to be an exhibition.Johnson is toying with him,picking him up like a stuffed animal,cuffing him around at will;but then Ketchel got in a good one knocking Johnson him off his feet. However,within 10 seconds Stanley is lying on his back arms spread out unconscious and missing his two front teeth.

Now I don't have to reach and say that any of the two Sugar Ray's could have beat Ketchel.Or Hagler.Or Monzon.I'll just go back and grab a few fighters that I saw locally here in San Diego. David Love could have beat Ketchel. So could have James Kinchen.

I read where Jake La Motta got tired of the scribblers comparing him to Stanley Ketchel.
"Hell how do those guys know anything?They weren't even around then. They never saw him fight.They just go with all the talk."

Ironically, when the late Ring Lardner was offered to to pick a middleweight that paralleled his main character,Midge Kelly the insensitive champ from his short story Champion,he gave it some thought.
"At first I considered Stanley Ketchel,but after thinking about it I think Jake La Motta would be more apt."

If it means anything to ya' Jake,I think you could have kicked Stanley Ketchel's ass.


Stanley Ketchel



Pretend you didn't know who these guys were.Would you say that the guy who got his hand raised is the greatest middleweight who ever lived? They both look like one of those prelim fighters you see fighting in those cruddy bars in Tijuana :lol:
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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In The Way

I've said it before. The lunch pail crew who fought more or less on a regular basis at the San Diego Coliseum posed a challenge to the prospective fighters that had dreams of reaching the rarified air of being top 10 contenders and even champions of the world. But in the Southland the familiar faces plying their trade at the Coliseum stood in the way of these young bucks who wanted something much bigger:bigger fights,bigger paydays,and fighting in bigger venues.San Diego was in that middle ground.If they could get through the the San Diego stable then it was onto the thoroughbreads.I'll quickly put up a list of names that were what I call " impediments."

Charlie "Bad News" Austin-middleweight
Renato Garcia-middleweight
Chucho Garcia-middleweight
Eddie Mazon-middleweight and welterweight
Amado Vasquez-light heavyweight
David Love-middleweight
Chuck Haynes-heavyweight
Jimmy Rosette-middleweight and light heavyweight
Ronnie Wilson-light heavyweight
Spud Murphy-featherweight
Roy DeFilippis-featherweight
Bobby Valdez-featherweight
Hildo Silva-light heavyweight

I know I've left some guys out. I apologize.I just can't recall right now. I left out fighters like James "The Heat" Kinchen and Art Hafey. They were in the lunch pail pack but broke out of it getting some big fights later. Then there were the TJ guys who flopped up and down down between LA,San Diego,and TJ.Marcos Geraldo and "Lobito" Montoya to name two.

These boys were good fighters,not champions nor Hall Of Famers,but fighters that knew the tricks of the trade ,and if an opponent thought it would be a walk in the park with these guys he'd find himself sleeping under a lamp post.

I remember there was a hot prospect who had an unblemished record after 14 fights,a welterweight by the name of Aristeo Castro.He was young and popular and going at a pretty good clip.Then Mickey Davies matched him with this old warhorse ,"Kid" Rayo.Rayo was no stranger in town but he didn't have the talent of the top rung guys.But he was one of those "impediments."If a fighter wanted to go onto to those "bigger" things in boxing he had to beat the "Kid" Rayos of the world.

I was at that fight. The crowd was behind Castro. "Kid" Rayo wasn't a fighter that excelled in any one attribute.But he was always there and an opponent had his hands full to sweep him away. "Kid" Rayo wasn't just going to flop to the mat and take his money and run. Well,Castro was well ahead going into the middle rounds,but started getting careless. I could see he was taking things for granted:letting his hands drop,not moving his head.Little things,but careless anyway. Then Rayo tried something that he'd probably done a hundred times before.They fell into a clinch.Rayo knew the referee was behind Castro so with his glove he patted Castro on the back of his shoulder. Castro thought the ref was signaling them to break. Castro broke away and when he did that Rayo clipped him with a right hand.Frank Rustich,the referee, didn't even bother to count.

After Castro had tasted his first loss he was a ship without a rudder.He stayed around fighting in California and Mexico. He became one of those familiar faces at the Coliseum. One of those fighters that posed as an "impediment." if some young charge wanted the "bigger' things in boxing he had to get through him first.Some did. Some didn't.


Dan Haley and Rick Farris.West Coast Boxing Hall Of Fame
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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dagosd2000 wrote: 30 Jul 2020, 16:00 Telling Me Something My Eyes Don't See

I was watching the highlights of the fight between Stanley Ketchel and Billy Papke,the rubber match.It was on one those ESPN classic fight series.I forget who was doing the moderating. Anyway, they're showing this thing and the guy who's doing the moderating is saying that "Many consider Ketchel as the greatest middleweight who ever lived." Now I'm watching this ,and it ain't the first time,and I can't see how one could think Stanley Ketchel is the greatest middleweight of all time.These two are doing mostly holding and clinching and the referee needs a crowbar to pull 'em apart. Then when they're separated they stand back and stare at each other with their hands down.Then one guy lunges and they fall back into a clinch and the referee trying to pull them apart and this goes on for 20 rounds.

I'll stick with Ketchel ,but Papke is a carbon copy. No footwork,nor hand speed to mention. Defense you can throw out the window ,and the all the while this moderator is saying what you're witnessing is one of the great classic fights of all time with all the crowd noise dubbed in the back.If this guy thinks I'm going to turn off my machine believing that Stanley Ketchel could be considered the greatest middleweight ever he can try to convince me to buy the Brooklyn Bridge.

We can also see ketchel in there with Jack Johnson. That thing was supposed to be an exhibition.Johnson is toying with him,picking him up like a stuffed animal,cuffing him around at will;but then Ketchel got in a good one knocking Johnson him off his feet. However,within 10 seconds Stanley is lying on his back arms spread out unconscious and missing his two front teeth.

Now I don't have to reach and say that any of the two Sugar Ray's could have beat Ketchel.Or Hagler.Or Monzon.I'll just go back and grab a few fighters that I saw locally here in San Diego. David Love could have beat Ketchel. So could have James Kinchen.

I read where Jake La Motta got tired of the scribblers comparing him to Stanley Ketchel.
"Hell how do those guys know anything?They weren't even around then. They never saw him fight.They just go with all the talk."

Ironically, when the late Ring Lardner was offered to to pick a middleweight that paralleled his main character,Midge Kelly the insensitive champ from his short story Champion,he gave it some thought.
"At first I considered Stanley Ketchel,but after thinking about it I think Jake La Motta would be more apt."

If it means anything to ya' Jake,I think you could have kicked Stanley Ketchel's ass.


Stanley Ketchel



Pretend you didn't know who these guys were.Would you say that the guy who got his hand raised is the greatest middleweight who ever lived? They both look like one of those prelim fighters you see fighting in those cruddy bars in Tijuana :lol:
Rog, it's funny you include that youtube segment of Ketchel v Papke. Years ago a guy I worked with told me about a bar that would show old fight films on a particular Sunday morning. So on this Sunday I grab my Pops and we head out to this bar on the northside where we meet up with my buddy. The old guy showing his super 8 reels would take them around to prisons and such for everyone's enjoyment. Anyways, this film of Ketchel v Papke came on and my jaw is dropped at how woeful these two looked. After the fight, I turned to Pops and asked him what he thought of those two. Now, I should mention, although my Dad could tell you everything you wanted to know about Gaspar Ortega or every nuance about Carlos Ortiz or how badly Paolo Rosi bled, he was not a historian. But he knew boxing. He could demonstrate every punch in the books and who the best was at throwing that certain combo, but he never read up on the sport. He knew the fighters he saw with his baby-blues, but he was lost prior to Freddie Mills. So now I have the opportunity to discuss with someone who is not caught up in the Stanley Ketchel mythos. He is not going to give an answer he is 'supposed' to say. And his reply to me on what he thought of the two who just mauled their way through that bout was as honest and concise as one could get from someone who knew the sport but not the legend. "Ahh, Just a couple of old tear-aways.", he said, while plying away at a toothpick. I found it refreshing. Someone who had no problem saying that the King has no clothes.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by margaret thatcher »

Yep, the former Jack Johnson opponent would get beaten handily by many middleweights throughout history, nothing close to the greatest
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »


They say this guy is considered the first heavyweight champion. He was named after a fruit-James Figg. I don't know how good he was but he probably could have kicked Stanley Ketchel's ass. :lol:
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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Finding An Exit To The Poor Man's Out

I've been to Italy on a few occasions.My bloodline is 100 % dago even though my cousin Frankie told me I'm one quarter French. Of course my old man used to say Frankie was full of sh!t.I don't know what it's like to "feel" like a "frog",but I can tell you what it's like being a dago because when I go to Italy I feel like it's home. Not a second home,but it's like where I left the nest.I don't speak a word of Italian(only some cuss words)but I can communicate using the standard way Italians get their point across by using their hands and talking loud( I'm not into using adverbs so it's "loud' instead of loudly)

Now here in America we've had a pretty good run of Italian fighters.Go ahead and say they are italiian/American fighters. Teddy Roosevelt never like that hyphen crap when describing nationalities. If you were born in the USA then you were an American without the hyphen.But when I go to Italy the paisans have all heard of Marciano and La Motta and Pep and so on.But on the other hand there hasn't been a wave of great Italian home grown pugs. Carnera?I still don't think he's been voted into some kind of boxing hall of fame.Maybe hall of shame,but not any of those institutions that got integrity.And then there's Benvenuti. He was one scared bitch the second time he fought Monzon.So why is the whole country of Italy kind of devoid of great fighters?I'll tell you why.Italians in Italy on the whole were running in the same lane together.Boxing never crossed their minds as a "poor man's out."Here in the U.S. it was a different story.

When the Italians immigrated here they were kicked to the curb like all the previous immigrants.They came here because they had nothing from where they came from.They wanted a fresh start like the immigrants who stepped onto Ellis Island before them.Before the Italians arrived the Irish were the new kids on the block. They settled along the east coast and went to work in the factories or labored like medieval serfs. They built tenements for them to live in and the neighborhoods got the name of "slums.' Being the lowest on the pecking order, just a click above the blacks, many of the males were looking for that "poor man's out." Kind of what goes on today in 3rd world countries they could hooked up with the gangsters or turned to boxing to bring home the bacon.But it wasn't that 1st generation that produced the names of the fighters so much. The sons of those immigrants put up their dukes and we saw in the late 19th century tough Irish like John L.Sullivan,Jim Corbett,an Irishman by blood Bob Fitzsimmons,Terry McGovern,and Jake Kilrain. Then around the turn of the century the boats from Italy made New York their port of call.

Now these dagos needed to find a place to settle so they started to roam the Irish burgs. Now the Irish found somebody they could kick around.Most of the cops in these slums were Irish and they didn't hesitate to use their billy clubs on the noggins of the spaghetti eaters.Like the Irish before them the 1st generation Italian immigrants took a powder from boxing but their bambinos would find the gym,or find a guy like Capone.So along came Willie Pep,the two Rockies.the Raging Bull,Tony Canzoneri,and Lou Ambers.

So what had the Irish and Italian fighters have in common?They were poor as hell and discriminated against. With boxing they held a faith they if they did good they'd find that "poor man's out".Before I continue I want to say a word about the black fighters. of course their parents were slaves that were shanghaied over here against their will.At the time of the antebellum(how's that for a fancy word?)there was no "poor man's out" for these guys. If they putup a beef they were whipped or lynched. If they ran away they broke the law and were returned to their masters where they were whipped or lynched. They could try running away and making good on that but they weren't going to get paid for being professional fighters.Now their masters put them in what they called "Battle Royals' where it was 10 guys together in a cage and the last man standing was the winner.it wasn't until Honest Abe and the end of the Civil War when the freed slave qualified for that "poor man's out."Bring on the sons of first emancipated- Johnson,Langford,Gans,Dixon,and the welterweight Walcott.

The fresh off the boat Jews had their share of fighters from the ghettos.Leonard,Tendler,the Attels,and Brne Ross were no slouches.Their daddies were at the bottom of the pay ladder so they jumped on the" poor man's out"bandwagon.BTW.The Irish,Italians,and Jews all lived in the cities in close proximity.

Today, it's similar to what was going on back at the turn of the century America when people lived in communities where the life expectancy was 40.Kids from Latin America,the Far East,Africa,and Eastern Europe are the best fighters out there now.The black fighters in the U.S. are dwindling in number. Now it's basketball and football that's the way out for the poor athlete,or organize crime.

So when the English,Dutch,and Germans arrived first to America(They really didn't. The Indians got the jump on them)they were more or less all on an even keel. Prizefighting wasn't on the agenda .If there was a" poor man's out" it was to get in a covered wagon and go west young man.

Before I end this history lesson have you ever heard anyone in the U.S. referred to as an English/American?If Martin Luther king can be called an African/ American then I'll call George Washington an English/ American.And if I think it through Sitting Bull was an American/American.


Abe Lincoln.He gave the freed slave an opportunity for the "Poor Man's Out."
Last edited by dagosd2000 on 01 Aug 2020, 22:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Eddie Pinkman: Pacific Coast Champion

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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

The Truth Doesn't Always Set You Free

I read an interesting post just now from "Goose". He said that he knew "Doc" Kearns son,but never asked him about if his dad loading Dempsey's gloves prior to the fight.Like I've posted before I was sitting in the back office of Bob Johnston's Sports Palace with my father,Kearns,and Bob Johnston when as part of the conversation Kearns explained quite freely that he had put plaster of Paris in Jack's gloves. This was after the story was printed in Sports illustrated when Kearns, for a pittance, sat down with a steno and divulged his scheme. Upon reading the article Dempsey sued. Well,Kearns didn't have anyone at hand to corroborate his story except Dempsey so the publishers wrote a retraction. I didn't know Kearns junior,but he always denied his dad would be so naughty."Goose's" post was followed up with a query about how he laid an egg by not asking sonny "Why?"


Let's face it. The kid wasn't going to tell everybody that his dad cheated. It's nothing to brag about.If Kearns' son thought that what his dad did was kind of "cool",then he'd be leaving himself wide open for a counter. Example:
"So your old man did something dishonest for his fighter to win the title." Or...
"Your old man did something that could have killed someone." Or...
"That was typical of your old man.You never could trust a liar like that."
To have admitted something like loading Dempsey's gloves would bring added disgrace not only to Kearns,but put a permanent stain on the family name.

It goes the same for every fighter that went into the "tank" for whatever reason. What's he going to do?Tell everybody that he was dishonest? Even La Motta,when he had that ghostwriter pen his autobiography Raging Bull,kept the truth inside about the Fox fight(In the movie they told the truth.It was "cool" to embellish La Motta's bad rep)In the book La Motta said the Billy Fox fight was on the level.That he had injured his kidney before the match and even had a doctor's note to prove it. He was sure to show the note to the judge. But it was all a lie. La Motta knew going in he was going to fake the loss so that's why he made sure when he went before the commission he had a doctor's excuse all official like.

Two more anecdotes before i watch the Padre game on TV.I saw a documentary about this German whose father was the commandant of a concentration camp in the war.The son had no idea about what role his father played in the war.(Obviously his father didn't want his family to know)When the son found out later,when his father was executed for war crimes,the son went to Israel to publicly apologize. What his father did tore this kid apart.He thought by baring his soul,the people in Israel would empathize.Instead he was attacked.Because his father was no longer around the the crowd blamed HIM for what happened
"You're father murdered six of my cousins "shouted a distraught woman."You think you can come here sand say you're sorry and that makes it better?".
The kid was stunned. He should have just let it go. Going to Israel to say he was sorry backfired.Why should he apologize for what his father did?

Guys like Barry Bonds,Sammy Sosa,Lance Armstrong might go so far as to say that they "accidently" took PEDS.(I thought it was creatine.That's what the personal trainer told me about what was in the bottle.Creatine.That was the scapegoat for awhile)

You might think confession is good for the soul,but the ego gets in the way.If "Doc" Kearns had said that he made the story up it would have been different. But he wanted to hurt Dempsey. Besides he thought that not playing by the rules was "cool." He should have thought about what people would have to say about his family before he left the arena.

And now I'll say a thing or two about my father. Yeah.He was in the Mafia. I could share some stories here where a lot of listeners would think that it was "cool" to be in the Outfit. And I've shared a few of those stories. But it's the tales I've not spun that I'll keep to myself. First of all being in the Mafia isn't "cool."But I'm not going to apologize for my father. But go ahead and say something about my father being in the Mob.Maybe i'll take a swing at you or maybe I won't.


Jake La Motta
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

Here's The Rub

When me and the wife would take our granddaughter,Amanda,to Seville for her Flamenco courses many of the students and instructors would get a massage after class was over from these two gals that had opened a salon near the studio. That area where my granddaughter was taking lessons is called the Macarena. It's an old traditional part of Seville,not touristy,and many of the Flamenco studios are located there. I never took any Flamenco lessons but I always like to get a massage.I don't go for a man rubbing his fingers on my body,but when it comes to the fairer sex tickling my torso it's a trip thriugh the light fanrastic.The two gals that operated the business were from Argentina.Their names were Paola and Alicia.They we're really good when it came to giving massages. They had a good size clientel,mostly dancers that lived in the vicinity.Of course I'd always go for the "Happy Ending" but they were ,.I guess, strictly legit,and would deny me any further pleasures.They were always very nice about it,but they said they didn't do anything extra as far as a carnal nature. At least they didn't want me give them my version of a "massage."

As they were kneading my flesh we'd gab about a lot of things-Flamenco,how's business,what it's like in Argentina,and I'm really horny.One time I broached the subject of Carlos Monzon. To my surprise they became very animated about the former champ. They told me that he was very popular in Argentina and. after he finished his career fighting he became a matinee idol,, ingratiated himself in Europe flying with all the jetsetters,and was constantly in all the gossip columns and movie mags.He wore expensive tailored suits and drove around in luxurious sports cars.Of course the women flocked around him and he raised no objections. Paola and Alicia were very up on the story about how Monzon had thrown his common law wife,the sumptuous actress Alicia Muniz off a balcony killing her.Monzon's defense was that he was trying to prevent her from jumping off the balcony and in his attempt he fell to the ground also.Well.the judge wasn't buying his excuse. Monzon had had a violent history with women(and men)and when he got to drinking he'd show his side of Mr. Hyde. Monzon had a lot of Indian blood in him and because Indians have some gene that's allergic to alcohol Monzon would flip his switch to channel Mr. Hyde.In Argentina the European settlers tried their version of etnic cleansing across the land and that meant getting rid of the Indians.However,they missed Monzon,but since he was such a macho man sweeping aside all the fighters that stood in his way to become the middleweight champion they gave him a pass.Paola and Alicia said that Monzon resented the fact that the Argentinians, with their continental bloodlines, discriminated against the native Argentinians.He took it personally and when he'd get a snoot full he'd pull Mt. Hyde out of his pocket.

Carlos Monzon had always been a bit of a mystery for me. He only fought one time in the U.S.-a title defense against Tony Licata in the Garden.He played it safe fighting mostly in Luna Park In Buenos Aires and in his second homes in France nd Monte Carlo.He ducked out of a drug test after his first fight with Rodrigo Valdez and local San Diego middleweight Charlie "Bad News" Austin said that when he fought Monzon in his backyard Carlos had his own separate scale to weigh himself on.

There's a lot of posters here on BoxRec that think Monzon was the best 160 pounder(at least that what it read on "his" scale)who ever laced up the gloves. I don't go along with that. A lot of that attitude was because Monzon, in front of all his frog friends, destroyed my guy Jose Napoles in Paris. But if you look at his defenses(and here I am getting into the mythical fight territory that gives me a rash)there wasn't much oomph in the division .Napoles was way too small to be fighting him. Griffith was also too tiny and was showing a solar plate on the back of his head.The others:Dale,Bouttier,Moyer,Mundine,Tonna,Briscoe were either past their primes or never had one. The Bennie Briscoe fight always made me wonder. Briscoe moved forward but didn't throw anything worth mentioning. At the bell ending, I think it was the 10th round,Briscoe landed a shot that had Carlos cowering in the corner. But in the following frame Bennie went back to playing hide and seek.

You've probably heard the infamous story of how Monzon "KO'd" Joe Frazier during a sparring session when Carlos was getting ready to fight Licata in the States.Vito Antuofermo was spreading the news on that one. Then Vito said that he was mistaken and that Carlos had only knocked Frazier down.Now you tell me. The middleweight champion of the world sparring with the heavyweight champion of the world and the only guy who saw that or even heard of it was paisan Vito. But then Vito said that he wasn't present in the gym that day and that Chris Dundee. told him about it.C'mon man. Frazier being that breed of Philly fighter let it all go in a sparring session.He would have made Carlos looking like a drunken Tango dancer.

However,putting my personal prejudices aside,I think Carlos Monzon ,at least in my lifetime,was the toughest fighter I ever saw.He was a mean dude and resilient as hell. There have been these tough guy fighters who do a lot of talking and posturing like Liston ,Foreman,Tyson,and Duran but they eventually got exposed and were never the menace they wanted the world to believe after that first loss.Monzon made his exit still showing his mettle through to the end.He only lost three fights in a hundred and those three were buried way back inside his first 19 bouts.

The legends :Duran,Leonard,Hearns,and Hagler were a click up the road in time when Monzon was throwing women off balconies.I think Duran was too small for him and he couldn't have worked his macho voodoo to psyche him out. Hearns didn't have the strength to match with him. However,Leonard and Hagler had better skills and could share Monzon's grit round after round.

So getting back to Paola and Alicia giving me a massage and them talking about Carlos Monzon with my flagpole standing at full mast.All they had to talk about was his love life. And when all I wanted was a ,little love. :lol:




Paola and Alicia
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

A Happy Face

I see it a lot with Mexican fighters:walking from the dressing room, climbing into the ring, then prancing up and down in their corners waiting for the bell to start the fight. They have a look on their faces like they're as happy as can be,not a care in the world.If there's any anxiety they don't show it. They smile and wave to the crowd like it's a warm sunny day and the world is seen through rose colored glasses.Baby Vasquez was that kind of fighter.A lightweight with not much of a punch nor rapidity of hand and foot. But he had more tricks up his sleeve than Houdini. The records show that he debuted professionally in 1949. i was three years old in 1949. I saw him fight in Tijuana's Jai Alai Palace in 1970. His last fight was in 1974.Another of those fighters that fought everybody and didn't care about playing it safe ducking a guy that posed a threat.BoxRec has him down for around 190 fights. You could probably add another hundred fights to that and still come up short.


I wanted to see him fight because by that time he was a legend in Mexico. Mexicans like their killers Baby but wasn't in that category.He was a pest.Slippery, A metaphor for the word "guile.".Had the rep for making an opponent look bad, especially the fighter who packed a wallop. They used to have a program in Mexico on the television on Sundays that showed highlights of the past weeks' fights and concluded with excerpts of famous Mexican fighters in battles of yesteryear.I saw plenty of Baby Vasquez,and although he didn't win all the time he gave his opponents fits.

When Jose Napoles came over to Mexico from Castro's Cuba so he could continue fighting professionally he knew he was in a realm of fighters that had experience,toughness,and were more than happy to try to knock that mustache off his upper lip. Naploles didn't fight in his new country for ten months. He knew what was ahead for him so he trained very hard to build up his body. Then he went into the lion's den.He kept his weight at 135 and around there.His first fight was with Enrique Camarena in Mexico City that Jose won via decision.Then he moved up a step and did battle with the old pro, Kid Anahuac.He wore down the Anahuac stopping him in nine.Jose was flashy even back then but he didn't like it when he was forced to fight knowing that his opponent was a good body puncher. Back then if a Mexican fighter couldn't deliver that left hook to the liver he wasn't a Mexican.Well, that's what Tony Perez' strategy was when he handed Jose his first taste of defeat in his adopted Mexico.He would fight Perez twice more winning convincingly, but knowing that in front of him he had to get past a tough band of Mexican lightweights if he was going to win a championship.Included in that group was Baby Vasquez. I saw both of Napoles' fights with Vasquez on the tube. By that time the aficianados had bestowed on him the "Mantequilla" moniker because he had that efficient smooth style that he executed with such aplomb.But it was Vasquez who looked like he had been basted with butter.Jose found himself frustrated that he couldn't put two good punches together on the slippery Baby.Jose was the winner but he didn't like it when Vasquez took him out of his "Mantequilla" mantra. Jose didn't want anything to do with fighting Baby again.

The night I saw Vasquez fight in TJ I told you about. I didn't recognize the name across from his on the fight poster. Looking up that fight years later it says that his rival had never had a pro fight. Maybe yes.Maybe no, But that's common in Mexico. Fighters aren't nursed along.It's in the lion's den right from the start.Vasquez won going away.It wasn't much of a fight. It looked like Vasquez was carrying him. But at least I got to say I saw Baby Vasquez fight.

I was watching the San Diego Padre baseball game last night.They played the mighty LA Dodgers.The Dodgers have won 7 straight pennants and been to the World Serious(Thanks Ring Lardner) a slew of times. Before the game one of the Padre announcers asked the second year starting pitcher for the Padres,Chris Paddack,if he was "afraid" of the Dodgers' lineup. The kid paused for a second and then said he wasn't afraid but his face told a different story.Then I got to thinking.Baby Vasquez who fought more fights than there are stars in the sky never showed any tics or phobias before the ringing of the bell for round one.You'd think he was buying an ice cream cone or going to play an a swing in the park. Here's a kid pitcher for the Padres whose ego crashes if the Dodger lineup tags him for a few homeruns and runs him off the mound in the first inning.Then there's Baby Vasquez who steps into the ring knowing the other guy wants to beat him to a pulp.But he just waits in his corner prancing up and down like it was nothing."Baby".That was a good name they gave him.It's like a fistic irony.An oxymoron maybe.I think of all the times after the final he had just played with his opponent like some newborn. All the while smiling to the crowd.

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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

One Man's Junk Is Another Man's Treasure

Glancing through Ebay yesterday and I saw an interesting fight poster listed. It was the title fight between Jose Napoles and Indian Red Lopez at The Forum.Underneath it showed Bobby Chacon on the undercard. Renato Garcia was also one of the prelimers. Garcia fought Arturo Zuniga.Zuniga was in Napoles' stable and did a pale imitation of Jose when he was in the ring. I didn't go to the fight.I believe this poster was the same one displayed at one of Rick Farris' West Coast Boxing Hall Of Fame conventions.The seller wanted 349 dollars for his memorabilia. The poster is a beaute alright,but I'll pass. It's not to say I've spent a small fortune on sports memorabilia.But those days are long gone for me. When baseball collectibles were worth almost it's weight in gold I was dipping into my bank account like a kid with his hands in a jar of candy .But then the bottom fell out of that market and I had to sell off all that stuff for peanuts,or I just gave it away to friends.

I remember seeing a ton load of fight posters in Tijuana back in the day when I'd just be walking around. The San Diego papers weren't much for writing up the upcoming fights in Tijuana,but just walking around on Revolution Street there would posters nailed on every lamp post,telephone pole,and on the front of practically every building letting you know what was coming up.The posters were there for the taking. I mean after the fights were over someone had to take them down.You name it. Just about every big name in Mexican boxing fought in TJ and there were their names on cardboard plastered all over the city. Napoles,Saldivar, Olivares,ChavezJibaro Perez,Margarito,Dinamita Estrada,Erik Morales just to name some. But I never had any vision .How would I know that those posters might be worth something one day?. It's like all you guys out there whose mothers' threw out your baseball cards and you don't remember when nor cared.But there was one poster I did grab. When Muhammad Ali was in town training for Ken Norton ,he was to fight an exhibition (really a sparring session)at the Auditorium on the Boulevard.There were posters all over the city announcing that event. Some of the posters were in English,but most of them were in Spanish. The thing fell through.It never came off. My take was that Ali would have got it stuck in his ear if he had gone through with it.Back then Mexicans didn't like black guys who shot off their mouths.Ali would have set himself up for being a target for the bottle throwers and the name callers.

I took one of the posters in Spanish and had it framed. It was hanging in my room for a long time. But then when i got to working at that school in TJ,CETYs,coaching American football,I gave the poster to one of the kids on the team.He was friends with Jibaro Perez and took me down to the CREA Gym in the Rio section of town and introduced me to Perez and his trainer/manager Romulo Quirate who was also Perez' father in law.

There was a time when I sure wish I had hung on to that poster.But I don't really care anymore. Babe Ruth would say "I don't see what people see in collecting all that junk."However, here's one that makes me say ouch.My neighbor when I was a kid had a baseball autographed by Babe Ruth. The Bambino was in town with the Yankees in the 20's playing an exhibition game at the old Lane Field. My neighbor was a kid then and went to the game.Ruth would stick around afterwards signing balls for every kid who stood in line and waited. That's what type of guy Ruth was.My neighbor was one of those kids.My neighbor one Saturday was having a yard sale. On one of the tables was the Babe Ruth ball.He wanted 20 bucks for the ball. I didn't have 20 bucks but told him I'd get the money and to save me the ball.Well. I scraped up the 20 bucks but never went back to the yard sale. Instead I went out with my buddies and we all ate pizza and drank beers at the local pizza parlor. I guess when I never came back my neighbor had sold the ball. I thought about what Babe Ruth said about people collecting all that "junk." It didn't make me feel any better.

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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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Boxing On The Ropes Or Just More Social Distancing

As the different sports are trying get wind back in their sails ,boxing stays in the doldrums. Major League Baseball,the National Basketball Association,and the National Hockey League are playing games with emended schedules and in empty ballparks and arenas. Next month the National Football League will follow a similar pattern, The PGA is going to have their pro tournament begin shortly. Tennis is on the rebound. Again, fan attendance will be non existent.

First of all the team sports don't have to worry about scheduling. The teams belong to leagues that abide by the laws of the commissions and players unions. It's already set in stone. So we'll see the best players performing in their respective sports. LeBron,Trout,and Kucherov will be exhibiting their talents and why they should get the big bucks.Next month Patrick Mahomes will be under center wanting to capture another Super Bowl. The 18 Holers and the Racket Men have their tournaments that they can enter.The high profile guys like Tiger and Nadal will be in the spotlight again. it's a bit strange watching pro sports now with the cardboard cutouts of the fans in the seats instead of the warm blooded ones.Then there is the pumped in crowd noise from the sound systems in an attempt to add some genuineness. The atmosphere is peculiar but the other option, until they come up with a vaccine, is to scratch the season.

But what about us boxing "nuts?" This week it was announced that Mike Tyson and Roy Jones Jr. have signed to do something with each other September 12th in California. Is it a fight or just an exhibition or something else? Mike is 54 years old and he's telling everyone he isn't himself unless he's back in the ring.I guess he wasn't himself 15 years ago when he quit against Kevin McBride. Roy Jones is 51 years old.Roy's last fight was a decision win over a guy by the name of Scott Sigmon in Florida.It was only 2 years ago but Roy hadn't fought a reputable contender since he had lost to B Hop in 2010.

They're hyping this one up like we're going to see these two come back to life like they were in their primes.But they were saying the same thing about these two when they were played out back when they had no business stepping into a boxing ring anymore.Yet we all know this.I hope we do. But PLEASE,don't insult our intelligence.

Bob Arum announced that the fight between Lomachenko and Teofimo Lopez fell through whatever the stink was.But that's the sticking point with boxing. There are no self contained leagues or prestigious tournaments.With boxing you've got to get both parties to agree to come to terms.Today,especially with the money that's being demanded,the protection of fighters,and the plethora of commissions and associations, putting together a fight that the public wants is an act of futility.You can't hold a gun to their heads.

So as the other sports are at least trying to find their way,boxing is lost in the rabbit hole. If boxing's spin doctors aren't careful the sport will fall to the wayside as a footnote at the back of the sports page.Fans wlll give up on it and the new arrivals will care less. :verysad:


Roy Jones Jr.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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Big Red

His name was Jose Vera but we all called him Big Red. We called him Big Red because he wore this red letterman's jacket all the time.It didn't have a letter on it and I'm sure it didn't have anything with him playing on a team,but it did give him an identity. I mean you couldn't miss this guy in a crowd if he was wearing that jacket.Big Red was a taxista,a Mexican cab driver. In those days the hacks in Tijuana stood outside on the corner while their taxis were parked along the curb.As tourist looking person walked by they'd ask something like"You want a ride to the border?"If you looked like someone other than a tourist,a person who maybe wanted something other than a trip to the border,you might hear "You want to buy some marijuana?"If that got no response then it was down to the nitty gritty."You want a girl?"If you looked like a real degenerate then it was "Hey.You want to f--k my sister?"

Big Red was a stocky guy with the Indian face with the high cheekbones and the hawk shaped nose. The dark copper skin covered his soft body A futile mustache above his lip was about all he could get to grow there. However, his jet black hair was full and wavy where he didn't even need to bother to comb it.A broad open smile stretched across face from ear to ear even when happiness didn't call for it.I never saw him down in the dumps.Life to him was be taken not very seriously. Everyday was a day to have fun regardless at whose expense.

Me and my buddies in high school got to know him because he would always score for us a few joints or some uppers when we were in the vicinity of where he stood outside on the corner of 2nd and Revolution Street in front of the bank.We'd drive around in his cab and smoke the joints and pop the pills. Then we'd go to the Hotel Nelson Bar and start pounding away the house specials.After reaching the point of feeling no pain we'd then be in the mood to go to one of the cathouses nearby to get some physical relief.Back in the early 60's you could get stoned, drunk ,and laid for under 5 dollars. A girl working inside the Blue Fox for example would come over where you where sitting in some dark booth, unzip your pants, and then sit on your lap humping away.Being a oversexed 16 year old it would all be over inside 30 seconds.You'd get your rocks off and she'd get her 2 bucks.

Big Red was a big fight fan. Sometimes we'd hook up and go to the fights in his taxi cab.I remember one night we got pretty snockered drinking 75 cent pitchers of Mexicali beer in the new Long Bar. The old Long Bar had been across the street on Revolution taking up the whole block. At each entrance on either end where those funny mirrors that made you look different when you stared at the glass. But Woolworths bought the old Long Bar out so they moved the bar right across the street, however, without the mirrors.

It was a spur of the moment thing when we decided we wanted to go to the fights. The card was at the downtown bullring but right now the names on the main event escape me. I threw myself into Big Red's taxi and he went off hurtling down Revolution street side swiping a couple of cars along the way.I broke out a couple of joints and Big Red opened his flask of tequila. We consumed everything before we arrived to our destination.We got to the bullring late but Big Red parked his cab in front of the gates anyway.Because it was a taxi I guess they weren't going to have it towed away.

I can't remember who paid to get in but thinking about it we just probably pushed ourselves inside without taking out our wallets. There was no way we were going to sit in the nosebleed seats so we squirmed our way to the front row. We must have looked like two who you didn't want to mess with because no one raised a fuss including the cops. It was between fights and as soon as we sat down I saw this dead rattlesnake come flying across the ring and it almost hit me in the face.I knew then we were at the fights. I think the next fight was either the semi main or the main event but we didn't care.By that time we were too wasted to have anything matter like who was fighting in a boxing ring.We watched a few rounds of the fight which was pretty good I guess.There was lot of firecrackers going off and a blood stained in the crotch pair of a large lady's underpants came flying across the ring almost hitting me in the face.Yeh,I was at the fights inTJ.However, I don't know why they were aiming at me.Then Big Red turned to me and asked me something that really got my attention.
"You want to make a French movie? They'll pay you a hundred dollars."
Right away I forgot about being a fight fan.

We staggered back to Big Red's cab and hurtled our way back to town this time unable to sideswipe any automobiles.Big Red sped down Revolution Street like he was going down into the red light district,the Coahuiola,but kept on driving until he almost reached the fence that ran along the U.S. border. I remember everything was dark.All the buildings and houses were either boarded up or abandoned. The lights on the street lamps were broken so it was hard to see anything. I could tell it must have been an area for hypes or a good place if they wanted find a place to dump a body.Big Red pulled the cab around into an alley. He stopped the car in front of a closed door of a decrepit house..I could hear a lot of music going on inside. Big Red got out first and then waved me to follow.He pounded on the door and someone opened it up. Like a bolt of lightning everything opened up onto the alley like a nova flash.I stepped inside and saw a crowded bar of drunken guys who looked like they'd been sitting there drinking for hours and naked girls dancing on a rickety stage to the rock n' roll music from this disheveled band.The played out of tune but it was loud and that's all that mattered. The room was full of smoke and smelled of marijuana.Big Red told me to sit down somewhere and that he'd be back. It wasn't long before he returned with this scroungy looking dude wearing a tattered hat.
"So you want to make a French movie?" asked the tattered hat.
"I'll do it but Jose said you'd pay me a hundred dollars."
"Yes.A hundred dollars."
"But I'm not queer. Only with girls.Understand?"
"Of course amigo. I understand."
I followed the tattered hat into this small room off to the side. There was an unkept bed and a chair inside.Soon a woman came in. She was heavily made up and wearing a G string ,nylons snapped to a garter,high heels, and no bra. I was pretty drunk but she looked like something I could have a good time with. Her eyes were dull and watery.She never glanced at me. I didn't know what to do so I asked.
"Just sit on the bed baby,"she said slurring her words. So I sat there with a stupid look on my face waiting for her to make the first move.Then the door opened again. I saw the tattered hat holding this German Shepard dog tied to this long leash.The dog was tugging and pulling and frothing at the mouth.

Well,I might not have been the brightest bulb in the house but I didn't have to think about my next move. Before you could say "Rin Tin TIn" I bolted from that room and pushed everyone aside and was back in the alley panting like a wild animal.Big Red was waiting inside the cab drinking out of his flask.
"Well,that didn't take long,"he remarked.
"Look ass hole!,"I shouted trying to catch my breath."You didn't tell me that man's best friend would be starring along with me in that movie!"
"Well. You never asked."


The old Downtown bullring in TJ.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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I Did It My Way (Unfortunately)

Looking back on what contact I had with boxing ,like I told you before, I didn't have it in me to be a fighter.So if I had to do it all over again I wouldn't give it a go to being a fighter.However,I think I have an aptitude for being a trainer.I played football in high school and college and I was OK.I was always a starter for the teams I played on.But later ,when I tried my hand being a coach, I felt that it came pretty easy to me, Oh,I had to study it,but it came to me pretty naturally. Besides,I had the drive in me.In fact I gave yup my job being in charge of structural pest control for the County of San Diego to go back to school to earn my teaching credential.The ulterior motive was to get the credential and land a teaching job so I could hook up with a team so I could coach. It worked out. But if I had started out with a college team instead of a high school team I could have advanced much further.

One time I got to work in the corner for fight.I'd been dropping by Ruben's Gym in Tijuana that was near to where my daughter lived in Canon Jhonson. There was a kid working out in the gym who had some talent.He had had a few pro fights under his belt and had I often watched him train. He liked me and we became friends. Ruben saw that and figured that if I stuck close to this kid he'd move up faster.One day as I was watching this kid workout Ruben asked me if I'd like to help working in the kid's corner for his next fight. He told me that he'd fix it with the commission down there but I'd have to to kick in a few bucks in order for things to be on the up and up.Well,I figured that's the way things get done in Mexico. You can cut through the red tape for a few bucks.

This kid in the gym was ,like I said, gifted but raw as hell. I didn't think Ruben knew how to handle him. For one thing Ruben never sat him down and went over some of the basic fundamentals:how to throw a jab,how to feint to create openings,how to counter after slipping inside.how to get leverage when throwing the right. Things like that. I knew I wasn't an Eddie Futch, and that Ruben had fought professionally,but I knew i had more boxing smarts upstairs than him but I kept it to myself.What I saw in Ruben is what I saw with a lot of trainers-they more like cheerleaders than trainers. Instead of teaching they wanted to motivate. But that was putting the cart before the horse.

One thing that can cause a lot of problems in the gym and in the corner working a fight is that too many mouths can confuse a fighter and start jealousy. It also undermines the head trainer when his advice is second guessed.The night I worked in the corner I was told to just water the kid down and towel him off. I had no problem with that.Ruben did all the talking.

The fight was at the Auditorium on the Boulevard. The kid's fight was one of the ones on the undercard and he won pretty handedly. I didn't go back to Ruben's gym until much later, and when I did I checked up on how the kid was doing. Ruben frowned and said the kid had lost a few fights and decided to hang up his gloves.That's usually how it goes. A hot prospect, and then something goes awry like losing a fight or two and the wheels come off.

I've posted quite often about my time knowing with Burke Emery.During the 50's he had a brief spell holding the Canadian light heavyweight crown. He left his mark as a fighter(I never saw him fight)but he was a much better trainer.He could take a young fighter aside and teach him the nuts and bolts of boxing. He did that with Art Hafey. Hafey's bread and butter punch was his big left hook. When Art was being inducted into the California Boxing Hall Of Fame all he did was go on about how Emery taught him "everything I know."Burke's main fault(if you call it that)was that he burned fighters out. His fighters wanted to make money and so did Burke so his stable was always fighting somewhere just about every week.

Being a more or less a gym rat observer,I learned a lot watching Burke put his fighters through the mill when he had his gym in North Park and training his guys at the San Diego Coliseum.

I think you go through life making a lot of mistakes. That's how you learn. It's not making the same mistakes though that get you ahead.As for myself I did my share of doubling up on my mistakes.I guess you can say that's the way of the world-the winners learn from their mistakes and the rest find a boxing forum. :lol:


Burke and me in his bar,Champs
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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Just A Tear Away

The other day Dan Hanley responded to my post regarding Stanley Ketchel. I put up a clip of highlights(If you want to call them that)of Ketchel in the ring with Jack Johnson and his third fight with Billy Papke. From looking at that footage I've always been bewildered why anyone would consider Ketchel one of the top middleweights to put on the gloves. In 1994 Ring Magazine ranked him number one middleweight of all time.Dan said that he was asked by a friend to watch that film footage in some bar in Chicago. Dan also invited his dad,Pops,to accompany him. Dan said his dad was a fight fan and that though not schooled in the sport he could identify instinctively whether a fighter was the genuine article or not. Apparently,Pops wasn't familiar with Ketchel and the legend. After viewing the film he told his son he thought the two(Ketchel and Papke) were just a couple of" tear-aways."

Pops passed away from us several years ago. I believe he was 84. Living in Chicago, that was once a stronghold of pugilism,Pops saw the best and the worst and all that was in between that boxing had to offer. Obviously, Pops reaction of Ketchel's worth as fighter is in agreement of what I've always thought.

But how did Stanley Ketchel get to be put up on so high a pedestal? Over time we've been inundated with more and more media hype. Back in Pops day you either went to the fights in person or read about what happened in the papers.There was no television. Maybe if you took in a picture show there might be a blurb of something on the movie screen.Maybe Winchell would blurt out something on the wireless the next day.If you listened to a live broadcast on the radio you had to derive your opinion from the blow by blow accounts of a Clem McCarthy.The bottom line was that a person was left on his own to decide what was good or bad.

Today, with the tidal wave of "information" coming from the media it's become more of a brain washing than "You're a big boy.Now you decide."Oh,there are a ton of "experts" out there and they all know best and try their hardest to persuade you to think like them.Watching the YouTube clip of Ketchel ,the moderator is exclaiming throughout that Ketchel is one off the all time greatest if not thee greatest.

So what the world has morphed into is something not only sad,but dangerous. People,today,THINK they have a mind of their own,but are only echoing the thoughts of the media "experts." If Steven A , Skip Bayless,or Jim Rhome say it is so then it must be etched in stone.If Nat Fleischer said that Stanley Ketchel is the greatest middleweight that ever lived then your argument could not refute that.

But all this hype spewing from these talking heads certainly doesn't confine their two cents worth with just boxing. It's EVERYTHING imaginable on the face of the earth that they want to use to shape (or reshape)your opinions. We get it from all different angles. One day the world is this, and the next day it's that. From what is the best tasting beer to the situation with Covid. We're in a state that we don't know, so we go to the internet or turn on the tube to get an answer from an "expert."

Back in the day there were no experts on something like boxing or anything really.Einstein was a "genius" but who knew what he was talking about? Face value was all that you needed to come up with an answer. There's always two sides to an argument. The problem is today people get hung up on both sides and they can't decide whether they have to go to the bathroom or not.

Was Harry Greb great or an exaggeration? Was FDR a great president or a pseudo Commie? I don't have to scratch my head and then turn on the TV to get my answer. And people are always looking for the Truth.That's another good one. Whoever said "The truth will set you free"is kidding himself.

One of the manifestations of this TRUTH seeking is now we've all become "experts."By listening to all the hype we've been duped into thinking that the buck stops here with me. I know EVERTHING and I'll prove it because now I'll put up my list.A list about the top 100 and the bottom 100 of EVERYTHING.And if you think you know the TRUTH,then good for you. Just don't bother me with it.Most of it is like Pops Hanley would say,it's just a "tear-away."



Pops and my wife Maria.I don't have to ask an expert about the quality of thee two :TU:
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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Keeping The Faith

I never knew a fighter that was an atheist. Not to mean they were all Christians. I know some that are Muslims.However,Asian fighters I'm not sure. The ones I had contact with were Christians,but they were born here so that's maybe why.But that said I never knew a fighter that was an atheist.

How many times after a fight is over and the TV announcer goes up to the winner and asks him if he has anything to say?
"First of all I want to thank God for making me win the fight. Without Him I couldn't have done it."
While the victor is saying this you can see the announcer sort of disconnect for a moment until the winner has paid his tribute. The announcer always gets that religous tribute for starters.Then the fighter goes into the details of the match. It's the same pattern usually 99 times out of a hundred. I say 99 times because I imagine there are some fighters who didn't mention God and thank Him for watching his back.But in my memory I've never heard a fighter forget about his Creator when it comes to giving gratitude.

Fighters may not have all those college degrees and probably never finished school past the 6th grade.However if the School Of Hard Knocks handed out diplomas the pugs could frame their sheepskins and nail them above the mantle. Fighters for the most part grow up under the harshest of conditions:broken familes,living in impoverished neighborhoods,victims of all sorts of abuse,serving time in penal institutions.You'd think growing up like that would make a human being question a belief in a supreme being,at least one that is benevolent.But on the other hand it makes one a stronger believer.

I've been around enough fighters and gyms to know that an intellectual wise guy is not welcome.Fighters are pretty approachable and display a humility on first acquaintance.But that pays right into the hands to the guy who thinks his s--t doesn't stink so often he'll try to get cute.Say something smart alecky.Enough times and he'll get the cold shoulder treatment.Not a sock in the mouth. Just the cold shoulder. These intellectual assassins won't be able to get buy trying to impress everyone how smart they are.

I saw something once when I was hanging around the San Diego Coliseum getting my fill of watching the fellas going through their workouts. A sports reporter had blown into town a few months back and had a talk show on the radio in the mornings. in the evening he did a broadcast of the sports on one of the local TV channels. His first name was Jerry. I've forgotten his last name. This guy was full of himself. He thought he knew everything about everything and if you said something he'd try to one up you and get the last word in all the time. After awhile the local athletes and coaches didn't want to do interviews with him because he got under their skin. This guy could never get it. Ken Norton was had a fight coming up and he was starting to get some national attention. This reporter had set up a live interview with Norton while he was training at the Coliseum. I was there that day.

I can't remember who Norton was going to fight,but his opponent I don't think scared anyone. Norton was being handled cautiously by Eddie Futch.Back then Norton was kind of surly. Ali was controversial,but he always couched his remarks with a vein of humor.Call it sarcasm if you want ,but it wasn't threatening. Howard Cosell ,for one, could vouch for that. Well.this Jerry guy has the microphone and there's Norton standing beside him just after finishing his workout looking like he's in no mood to field questions from this guy. By this rime everybody in town is wise to this guy's antics. This Jerry starts of slow,but then tries to catch Norton with his guard down. Here's the first low blow.
"Ken your opponent doesn't have a good record.Have you prepared yourself adequately?"
"I've been working hard like I always do. Eddie makes sure of that."
Well,Norton didn't cry foul so here came another punch below the belt.
"You've never lost a fight but what happens if you do?"
Then Norton began to shift his feet and started gaving this guy the evil eye.
"I don't think about losing.Only winning,"said Norton through tight lips."Besides.I have faith in God."
"Well,what if your opponent has faith in God too?"
That was like pissing in Norton's water bottle.
"You've got a smart mouth.You know that?"said Norton who was now towering over this guy.
"Well,I've been around enough to know that you can't win them all,"he said trying to back peddle his way out.
"I'm going to tell you something,said Norton making a fist. "You might be smart,but that's all you are."
Norton then walked away not saying anything more to this fool leaving him holding his dick in his hand(and the microphone)



Ken Norton
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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The End Of Something

After Denny Moyer and Rocky DiFazio fought each other neither fighter ever won another bout. Moyer,if you look at the record,TKO'd DiFazio when "the ring physician stopped the bout after the 9th round." I've told you a few stories about Denny Moyer after he was summoned to wind up career in San Diego by his manager Sid Flaherty.Flaherty had been with Moyer since the get go when the baby faced kid turned pro in 1957. When Moyer arrived in San Diego he had more than 100 fights under his belt. I first met him when he was training at the Coliseum downtown and out at Flaherty's farm in the foothills of San Diego County.

At one time Moyer could go toe to toe with any of his peers. In 1962 Moyer had enough in him to decision Joey Giambra for the vacant super welterweight title.By the time he showed up in the Southland he had lost his edge,physically and mentally.Like I said before,Flaherty had an ulterior motive for bringing Moyer to San Diego.:to keep an eye on another of his charges ,Ronnie Wilson. Ronnie was beginning to slip because he was burning the candle at both ends when it came to paying his dues in the gym. However,Moyer was of a similar ilk and that just exasperated the problem.

When Moyer was in his twilight you'd see him in the gym. But he was fighting only for a buck. Like he'd say,"I can always go to Vegas and get 1500 dollars fighting at The Silver Slipper."Sid Flaherty had no problems accommodating Moyer's wishes. But by that time Moyer wasn't that baby faced fighter who was good a boxer as anyone in the welterweight division. I'd see him sweating in the gym.He was a "sweater."Buckets of sweat would seep through his T shirt when he trained. I'd think to myself about how much alcohol content was in the perspiration.

His fights were up and down during the 70's. When he was motivated he could still show the old flash like he did against Ray Robinson and Emile Griffith.But when he was off(or hungover)he looked like the old fighter whose brain was sending the signals to his arms and legs but those limbs were in need of re wiring.

After DiFazio had tasted defeat for the first time from Denny,he must have gotten a good case of indigestion.His next fight was a month later at of all places The Silver Slipper.Like Denny Moyer,DiFazio had earned his share of 1500 dollar purses there also.He lost to a 7 and 5 fighter named Antonio Leyva and then retired.22 fights and it was a career. Moyer on the other hand had recorded his 98th victory beating Rocky. Two more fights later and twice defeated, Denny called it quits.


When I got married I struggled to readjust my lifestyle. One of those modifications was to spend more time at home with the wife than playing with my pals. it was hard for awhile.
"What do you mean you have to go home now?"

By the time Moyer got into the ring with DiFazio in late 1974 I had been out of touch with what was going on with the fighters in San Diego.I had seen DiFazio fight on television once. He was from Melrose Park ,an Italian suburb in Chicago that was controlled by the Outfit dagos back in the day. That's where I went with my father and mother and my sisters to Johnny Haircut's pizza gardens and tasted pizza for the first time and haven't lost my addiction for it since.(This motorcycle gang tried to bum rush the place when we were there and Johnny Haircut took my father in the back and they came back out with Tommy Guns blazing and that was the last time those 'Motorcycle Ikes ever thought about coming back for cannolis)

But getting back to DiFazio. Like i said I saw him fight on the tube. He was a muscular, rugged looking kid but very raw.But he hadn't lost and I'm sure the Wise Guys were thinking that if he could whip Moyer he would find himself in a championship fight just around the corner. I had taken a peek at DiFazio's record prior to the fight. There were no names of his victims that would strike terror in the hearts of anyone. I got to thinking. If Denny gets his mind right he could take this guy.DiFazio was raw meat for a good boxer.

I didn't see the fight.It wasn't on TV. It's not on YouTube. I imagined what it was like. Moyer' eyes were coming more and more apart as time dragged on. If he could just come back to life and keep from bleeding to death,DiFazio would be in a lot of trouble.Well,Moyer pulled it off. There is no scoring on record of the fight up to the stoppage. Maybe Moyer took the Italian kid to school.

I lost track of Denny Moyer.I know he left town to go back to Portland,Oregon where he got his start. He got the dementia and passed away when he was 70.DiFazio took up training fighters but never struck pay dirt.All things come to an end.And that's the end of my story. :box:


Denny Moyer
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by goose 5 »

Roger : do you have any stories about Ike Williams ?
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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goose 5 wrote: 11 Aug 2020, 19:06 Roger : do you have any stories about Ike Williams ?
Goose
Nothing personal. Once I heard my father mention Williams name with other fighters that were controlled by the Mob(even Archie Moore had to go into the tank a few times). All those Black Murderers Row fighters were bought and paid for if they wanted to continue to earn a living boxing. Bob Satterfield's name would often come up. La Motta always said that Satterfield was the hardest puncher he ever faced.Getting back to Williams. He testified in front of Congress regarding anti trust suits that he was offered bribes and if he didn't go along his purses would be withheld.Ray Robinson never took a dive but he did carry a lot of fighters. His fight with Charlie Fusari is an example. His defense against Bernard Docusen was another. Instead of knocking these guys out he'd carry them through to the end. The Mob guys would bet it all on the fight going the distance.The bookies would take it in the shorts but they couldn't do anything against the Mob. Everyone would be approached:referees,managers,the fighters. It's a misconception that if a fighter didn't co operate he'd have his legs broken. That's baloney. That would have brought the heat on everyone real fast.You never heard of a fighter getting his legs broken. Instead,if a fighter didn't buy in he wouldn't get fights and have to look for another way to make a living. Black fighters were taken advantage of the most. Back then the public didn't want to see two black fighters in there let alone a black champion. Things aren't like that today. Maybe Black Lives Do Matter :D
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by goose 5 »

That was a terrific story about Ken Norton and his awkward interview with a blowhard. Norton had a reputation for choosing his spots; he wasn't so tough when Tex Cobb wanted to fight him on the street.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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A New Light

When Ken Norton blasted away at me during a sparring session ,that I had no idea I was going to be his punching bag(the guy who was supposed to workout with him complained of having a sore shoulder so he "volunteered" me instead)I left the ring feeling humiliated ,and later, made me mad. When Norton started his pro career in San Diego he was sort of arrogant and unapproachable.He fought a lot of no names,but he was having his troubles. He this stamina issue that was something mental.To me it was just a matter of time before he'd get in there with a guy who knew how to fight and then he'd get a rude awakening. Jose Luis Garcia paid him the unpleasantry by knocking him out cold in Los Angeles.

I ran this by you about how Norton sought a local hypnotist who had an act on stage at one of the local all you can eat buffets.The place was named The Chuck Wagon .The hypnotist's name was Dr. Dean,at least that was his name when he got on stage.The Chuck Wagon was located near the Marine Corps Recruiting Depot. This was all back in the late 60's. Regis Philbin used to introduce his act. This was when Regis was kissing everybody's ass in Hollywood so he could move up his name on the marquis. Philbin had married character actor Frank Faylen's daughter.Philbin had a daytime local TV show where he sat around and acted like a jerk and he didn't care if everyone knew it.The Italians have a name for someone like that- a "stunod.Anyway, Philbin would have his wife sitting off to the side,but no one knew she was his wife and no one could figure out what she was doing there just sitting.Philbin called her Casey.Later,he left her holding the bag.She also was left with caring for their severely handicapped child.Philbin was a perfect example of a career driven Hollywood suck up.

It seemed that Dr. dean (who was also a licensed psychiatrist) had worked some magic on Norton because he was finding his second wind now.But he still had that uppity way holding his chin up while staring down at you.After awhile Norton was doing most of his quality training in Los Angeles. He was working with Joe Frazier,his stablemate.

After upsetting Muhammad Ali in San Diego Norton was on his way. He only fought one more time in San Diego after he beat Ali.That fight ,however,was not at the old Coliseum(and it shouldn't have been there) but at The San Diego Sports Arena.Ken was in the limelight now,and after losing a close one to Ali in LA(many thought Ali got away with that win)Norton was in line for George Foreman. At least George thought he'd have a better chance beating Norton than Ali even if it meant less money.

Well,Norton was still in his bully stage back then,but now he was going to fight a bigger bully,and Foreman knew it. And so did Norton. After the first slug from Big George, Norton was looking for a place to fall. If you think about it the only fighter a bully fears is another bully like himself, and who also packs more wallop. Norton lost to big punchers like Shavers and Cooney but could stand in there with Young and Holmes. (I heard Norton say once that he wasn't "afraid" of Ali's punch)At the end of his carerr it was Kenny going through the ropes by Gerry Cooney delivering him there.Norton decided to hang 'em up after that.

I saw Norton on the tube acting as a commenter for a couple of fights.He was nothing sensational but then again ex fighters aren't very good color men.He made that movie Mandingo and had the white supremacists wanting repeal the 13th Amendment.Then in 1986 he was in a car accident. He had wrapped his car around a telephone pole.He almost died. He also couldn't remember how it happened. No drugs or alcohol was found in his blood.There were doctors that thought he would die,or at the least wind up with severe physical and mental disabilities.

Norton wasn't in San Diego much after the accident.I hadn't thought much about him.He struggled back as best he could and made the comeback of his career according to the docs. The San Diego Hall Of Champions staged a dinner in Norton's honor to induct him into their Hall Of Fame. I decided to go.It was curiosity that spurred me. My bad feelings for Norton had faded.Over time,the car accident and me not being so sensitive about him smacking me around made me see what it would be like in this new light.

Norton got up to the dais using a cane to accept his plaque.He was nattily attired in a black leather jacket and charcoal pants.On his head was a gray fedora.Cream colored patent leather shoes polished of his feet.He spoke but he struggled with getting the words out. He didn't speak long. His voice was weak but had a gentleness in it. The thing that got me though was that I had never seen Norton smile so warmly.He wasn't hiding behind anything.He thanked everyone who would be so kind to still remember him.

After the ceremony was over Norton mingled with the crowd. i found an opening and asked him if he remembered the time way back in 1968 at the Coliseum when he used me as a punching bag. He smiled at me and looked his eyes up for a moment.He was shifting his weight on his cane.
"I'm very sorry .I don't recall that,"he said.
"Well, it was a long time ago."
"By the way.What's your name?"
"Roger",I said holding out my hand.Norton shook my hand and wouldn't let go.
"Well ,Roger it's a pleasure to meet you. I'm sorry I can't remember that time in the gym."
Then some reporter came up to Norton with a cameraman aiming his camera in his face.Right away he began firing a questions at Norton.
"Excuse me,"said Norton to the reporter."But I want to introduce you to my friend Roger. We go back a long way. We used to spar together."

The reporter didn't seemed impressed and kept it up firing questions at Norton .I then excused myself and began walking away.
"Roger,"shouted Norton."Come back when this is done,"
I didn't come back.I went out to the parking lot and cried my eyes out for awhile.

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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

A Tough Way To Earn A Living

I see that Lomachenko and Lopez are to fight in September so Bob Arum says. Good. That's at least a start for getting the big fights together. I was going through the various boxing divisions and can ballpark the registered pro fighters as being 20,000. Like I said the other day the other pro sports are under way and the their rosters are back to work getting paid. For example Major League Baseball is playing with 30 man rosters.That's 30 teams with 900 players paying off their mortgages. Boxing is a different matter. I'm glad to so Lomo and Lopez settling things but I hope the other 19,998 can get some work.A benchwarmer in the MLB makes over 500 grand.A prelim fighter in TJ is lucky if he pulls in a hundred bucks to get punched around.And then he has to wait until his manager can find another manager and a promoter to get his next payday ,and another beating to go along with it. Chuck Johnston asked me what is a "semi pro" athlete. It's on a close parallel with being in the minor leagues.Minor league teams are affiliated with the parent team or the major league club. But boxing has no "minor league."If you get paid to fight then you're a pro. The wage disparity is what concerns me.

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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by boxresearcher »

Hello Gentleman,
I am trying to research an African American boxer from Sacramento, Larry Derrick. I believe this was his fight name, not his legal name. I have pretty much found all I can find on the internet.

Derrick was born ca. 1919 in Sacramento, his pro career was 1937-1941 and he fought many of his bouts at the Sacramento Auditorium. ANY info or leads to info about this fighter would be GREATLY appreciated!!

Many thanks for reading,
Craig Klose 585.307.1268
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

boxresearcher wrote: 17 Aug 2020, 11:44 Hello Gentleman,
I am trying to research an African American boxer from Sacramento, Larry Derrick. I believe this was his fight name, not his legal name. I have pretty much found all I can find on the internet.

Derrick was born ca. 1919 in Sacramento, his pro career was 1937-1941 and he fought many of his bouts at the Sacramento Auditorium. ANY info or leads to info about this fighter would be GREATLY appreciated!!

Many thanks for reading,
Craig Klose 585.307.1268
Boxresearcher

Looking at Derrick's record in the BoxRec archives I see where he was stopped by Big Boy Hogue in 1940.Hogue and his brother Shorty were probably the best white middleweights in California at that time.. I see where Derrick was a black fighter. The Hogues were from Jacumba,California which is located east in the foothills of San Diego and in some sorts remembled the Deep South. I know that they didn't care much for colored fighters.Their fights with Archie Moore were considered by locals rivalries unmatched.Sorry I skirted around Derrick to give you what I know.Good luck :TU:
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

Killer Of Sheep

Awhile back when I finally tracked James Kinchen down at his evangelical church in Southeast San Diego,The Helping Hands of God, I was a little taken aback about how few members of the flock knew of his about his fistic history. James is 62 now and has been retired from boxing for 28 years. It doesn't seem that long ago when I'd seen him fight at the various venues in town:The San Diego Coliseum,The El Cortez Hotel,and The Palisades Roller Skating Gardens.Local manager and boxing entrepreneur Bobby Di Filippis was handling him then and he had a hot one with "The Heat" who was unbeaten in his first 30 or so fights. He had been fed a good balance of opponents when he was put together with James Shuler to determine who would get next dibs to fight Tommy Hearns for the NABF middleweight championship. Shuler was also unbeaten going into the fight.The risk Kinchen was taking was that he had invaded Shuler's backyard of Atlantic City .James lost on a split decision where if that fight had been anywhere else he would have won going away. James also got jobbed when his turn came up to fight Hearns losing on a MD even though he put Tommy on his back in the 4th round.Kinchen also got his pocket picked earlier against Iran Barkley in Barkley's neck of the woods Detroit city, I don't think the spin doctors at the time thought they could make money with Kinchen so he was fed to the wolves. By the time he finished with the sport all that was left was bones.

When I started to get familiar with James' flock at The Helping Hands Of God Church, James seemed to be a a scapegoat out there by his lonesome.He was the most recent of the reverends and since he was at the bottom of the pecking order the guys standing on the rungs above didn't seem to want to make room for him to go up the ladder.But James didn't care about that. He was happy that he was wearing that collar and could preach a few words on Sunday.

Sometimes I would bring up James' boxing career with the men around his age but they never seemed impressed.
"Oh yeah.Someone said he used to be a fighter but I never followed his career ."
I had done a painting of James and brought it to the church to present it to him. Well,I'm no Rembrandt, but James thought his portrait should have been hanging in The Louvre. Before presenting him with the painting James got up to the pulpit beaming with pride throwing out his chest
"You all know Roger by now,"he said."He followed my career. He saw me fight. I'm so proud that he would think of doing a painting of me. No one has ever done that for me before."
I could see that he was beginning to get emotional but when I looked across the pews the flock seemed like they were going to doze off.No "Amens" or "Hallelujahs." Not even a "Praise The Lord."

James stood at the front and I took a picture of him holding the painting.He was by himself.No one seemed interested. The flock just wanted to get on with the rest of the sermons and hear the band play. That was my take on it.

I often think if James had gotten a fair shake with Shuler,Hearns,and Barkley. He would have gotten his name mentioned with all the other immortals of that period. Perhaps the IBHOF would have recognized his talents. Imagine,James' name in the same sentence with Duran,Hearns,Hagler,and Leonard.He would have made some big money. If the judges would have seen those three losses with unbiased vision I wonder where Jame would be now.

James told me that he was at a point in his life not to long ago where he had his wife and kids in the beat up van and nowhere to live and no job. All he had was 40 dollars to his name. Then he told me he turned to God. He doesn't keep up with boxing very much. He's happy being a part of The Helping Hands O God.

Praise The Lord.



The Reverend James Kinchen
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