Mayweather vs Alvarez card

[marcianofan]

I re-watched the fight, and was making a conscious effort to be fair to Floyd. I scored it exactly the same score as the last time, though I flipped two of my close rounds from last time in doing so. If you all truly think this was was not a very close fight at the very least, then I am now as certain as I've ever been of anything in my life that you gave Floyd 3 or 4 rounds just for showing up.

I challenge each one of you- especially the ones who called my ability into question- to re-watch the fight free from commentary. Score the rounds intently. Track the punches that you see land, and consider their apparent cleanness and effectiveness. Don't just file this information in your head and expect to remember it all accurately compiled at the end of the round. Find a way to measure it. I slide a pencil back and forth across the edge of an envelope. A lot of judges I've talked to slide their hand or thumb back and forth over some fixed point. If you've followed a similar procedure already the first time you watched it, do it again as I have done.

For those that still feel strongly that I'm nuts, please try to enlighten me as to what Floyd was doing- especially in the first 5 rounds- to separate himself from Canelo relative to the official judging criteria.

I had Canelo up 48-47 after 5 both times, and didn't feel Floyd had an argument for anything but a narrow nod in any single round of the group. In most of the rounds I gave Canelo, he landed some very clean and rather hard body punches that were the defining moment of the given round.

[palooka]

I re-watched the fight, and was making a conscious effort to be fair to Floyd. I scored it exactly the same score as the last time, though I flipped two of my close rounds from last time in doing so. If you all truly think this was was not a very close fight at the very least, then I am now as certain as I've ever been of anything in my life that you gave Floyd 3 or 4 rounds just for showing up.

I challenge each one of you- especially the ones who called my ability into question- to re-watch the fight free from commentary. Score the rounds intently. Track the punches that you see land, and consider their apparent cleanness and effectiveness. Don't just file this information in your head and expect to remember it all accurately compiled at the end of the round. Find a way to measure it. I slide a pencil back and forth across the edge of an envelope. A lot of judges I've talked to slide their hand or thumb back and forth over some fixed point. If you've followed a similar procedure already the first time you watched it, do it again as I have done.

For those that still feel strongly that I'm nuts, please try to enlighten me as to what Floyd was doing- especially in the first 5 rounds- to separate himself from Canelo relative to the official judging criteria.

I had Canelo up 48-47 after 5 both times, and didn't feel Floyd had an argument for anything but a narrow nod in any single round of the group. In most of the rounds I gave Canelo, he landed some very clean and rather hard body punches that were the defining moment of the given round.

Best of luck with the amateur judging stint

[crusader]

While I don't agree with marcianofan's scorecard, I agree with his suggestion that Mayweather often gets more credit than he deserves based on what he's done in a given round or set of rounds.

There have been countless times in which Mayweather has been described as schooling or outclassing an opponent when hardly anything significant occurred and Mayweather won the round or rounds by doing just slightly more. From what I gleaned online, it seems many thought Canelo was being schooled or dominated by the early rounds, but I think that is greatly exaggerating the disparity between him and Mayweather at the time.

[JCS]

Thought it was a "fight" through the first 5 rounds... after that, it was just Floyd being Floyd... other than taking off the 12th a bit. Still can't comprehend a Canelo scorecard.

[palooka]

While I don't agree with marcianofan's scorecard, I agree with his suggestion that Mayweather often gets more credit than he deserves based on what he's done in a given round or set of rounds.

There have been countless times in which Mayweather has been described as schooling or outclassing an opponent when hardly anything significant occurred and Mayweather won the round or rounds by doing just slightly more. From what I gleaned online, it seems many thought Canelo was being schooled or dominated by the early rounds, but I think that is greatly exaggerating the disparity between him and Mayweather at the time.

Ring generalship and mastery of distance can negate a boxers strengths and demonstrates superior ability and a higher level of boxing expertise; a boxer does not have to throw 120 punches a round to dominate. When Mayweather hit Canelo he hit him hard enough that Alvarez did not want to be hit again, when he backed Alvarez up with jabs and upper body movement he was dominant in the exchanges. Alvarez had been an effective pressure fighter who threw good combinations, Mayweather took that away from him and he didn't need to go to war to do it; Alvarez claimed post bout that Floyd did not hit hard - watching his face when Mayweather was teeing off on him told a different story - if Floyd did not hit with power the Alvarez would have walked through him; he didn't like being made to miss and being punished.

[marcianofan]

While I don't agree with marcianofan's scorecard, I agree with his suggestion that Mayweather often gets more credit than he deserves based on what he's done in a given round or set of rounds.

There have been countless times in which Mayweather has been described as schooling or outclassing an opponent when hardly anything significant occurred and Mayweather won the round or rounds by doing just slightly more. From what I gleaned online, it seems many thought Canelo was being schooled or dominated by the early rounds, but I think that is greatly exaggerating the disparity between him and Mayweather at the time.

Ring generalship and mastery of distance can negate a boxers strengths and demonstrates superior ability and a higher level of boxing expertise; a boxer does not have to throw 120 punches a round to dominate. When Mayweather hit Canelo he hit him hard enough that Alvarez did not want to be hit again, when he backed Alvarez up with jabs and upper body movement he was dominant in the exchanges. Alvarez had been an effective pressure fighter who threw good combinations, Mayweather took that away from him and he didn't need to go to war to do it; Alvarez claimed post bout that Floyd did not hit hard - watching his face when Mayweather was teeing off on him told a different story - if Floyd did not hit with power the Alvarez would have walked through him; he didn't like being made to miss and being punished.

And that's just the thing. I don't think he was really mastering distance. Canelo was matching him punch for punch, and to the extent Floyd was outlanding him at all (compubox was ridiculous on this one, btw), it was with a jab that wasn't always landing cleanly, and with no weight behind it. Floyd did some great work in combination on the occasions that he did have Canelo out of position, but those were few and far between in reality.

I also appreciate that the discussion has reached a more objective tone now that passions have cooled a bit.

[crusader]

While I don't agree with marcianofan's scorecard, I agree with his suggestion that Mayweather often gets more credit than he deserves based on what he's done in a given round or set of rounds.

There have been countless times in which Mayweather has been described as schooling or outclassing an opponent when hardly anything significant occurred and Mayweather won the round or rounds by doing just slightly more. From what I gleaned online, it seems many thought Canelo was being schooled or dominated by the early rounds, but I think that is greatly exaggerating the disparity between him and Mayweather at the time.

Ring generalship and mastery of distance can negate a boxers strengths and demonstrates superior ability and a higher level of boxing expertise; a boxer does not have to throw 120 punches a round to dominate. When Mayweather hit Canelo he hit him hard enough that Alvarez did not want to be hit again, when he backed Alvarez up with jabs and upper body movement he was dominant in the exchanges. Alvarez had been an effective pressure fighter who threw good combinations, Mayweather took that away from him and he didn't need to go to war to do it; Alvarez claimed post bout that Floyd did not hit hard - watching his face when Mayweather was teeing off on him told a different story - if Floyd did not hit with power the Alvarez would have walked through him; he didn't like being made to miss and being punished.

I think words like domination and schooling require a certain level of demonstrated superiority over an opponent that Mayweather did not produce in the early rounds against Alvarez or several others rounds in which he's been described as dominating or schooling an opponent. To appropriate application of those terms in my view doesn't require the superior fighter to throw 120 punches, hurt an opponent, or evade nearly every punch an opponent throws.

Undoubtedly a fighter can clearly win a round by doing just a little more, and being able to negate an opponent's strengths such that it enables one to capitalize on their own strengths and their opponent's weaknesses is something Mayweather does very well. However, to say that one dominated or schooled someone when in fact the difference between him winning the round and not winning the round was often a few jabs is to have an overly loose conception of what it means to dominate in my view. Domination implies a large gap between the better and lesser fighter, but I think the displayed difference between Mayweather and Canelo in certain portions was such that just a few decent shots from the latter would've close that gap or at least made it tight.

I think you're continuing the trend of giving Mayweather too much credit by suggesting that Canelo was troubled by his power. At no time did the latter look unsteady, continually hold, or generally display the typical signs that a fighter is hurt. What I saw, and what Canelo admitted, was that he was unable to catch Mayweather, and I think that led to a frustrated and confused countenance that you mistakenly interpret as Canelo being troubled by Mayweather's power.