BoxRec

BERNARD BRIGGS. wrote:Ali in my opinion was vastly over rated and would have trouble winning a WBO title today. Reasons being
too small
no defence
fought too many stiffs
rudimentry skills where lacking

I'm sure most of what I'm going to say has been said in the 19 pages already, but here are my thoughts:
I do think Ali might have trouble beating either Klitschko brother, but that he would dominate the rest of the division as it stands. And the difficulty he would have against the Klitschkos don't make him overrated...just a terrible matchup for him. Ali was used to having reach advantages over the guys he faced, and I don't think he would have much luck as the guy needing to get inside on a much taller man. Even if he did get inside, he didn't have the punching power to hurt his man much, especially Vitali.

So in one sense, I agree with you that he would have trouble winning the WBO title since he'd have to go through that particular guy to get it. As you mentioned, his size is a detriment to him, if only against that guy. He was smallish at his best, but we've seen that Eddie Chambers at an even smaller weight and with a lot less overall skill can have great success in this division as a whole. Post-prime, Ali wasn't really small at all, being 6'3" and as much as about 230, but in fairness he had lost much of what made him great by then, with the exceptions being heart, smarts, and chin.

As for no defense, I submit that you've been watching the wrong Ali. He was one of the toughest guys to hit in boxing history in the mid-60s. When he was a little past his true prime (such as against Foreman) he showed that he's also really good at covering up when it suits him. The Ali we saw in Manilla and after wasn't as much a defensive master, but I don't know that we should characterize a guy's entire career by his worst moments after his prime.

Fought too many stiffs??? Look, no fighter in history has fought champions or World-beaters every single fight, or even remotely close. Ali, as an Olympic champion, was fast-tracked to tough competition much faster than most fighters are, however. A casual fan, of course, may not be that impressed by Karl Mildenberger, for instance, but he was a legitimate contender in his day. Heck, the truly uninitiated might not even be that impressed by a guy like Chuvalo, but the truth is that George would have been a champion in most heavyweight eras. Ali truly beat all the best guys in the division from the moment he won the title in 1964 until, badly faded, he lost to guys like Berbick and Holmes around the dawn of the 1980s. I mean think about it: Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Chuvalo, Shavers, Patterson...name any heavyweight with a better list of victories on his resume. Every long-reigning champion is going to have a tune-up fight here or there, but Ali fought in an absolutely stacked era, fought all the best, and almost never lost.

And I really don't know what you could be talking about with rudimentary skills, either. He had lightning-quick feet, solid hand defense, good head movement when necessary, great hand speed and accuracy, great ring awareness, a plus chin, and plenty of heart. The only thing, whether you consider it a skill or just a talent, that he was really lacking was one-punch knockout power.

KOJOE90 wrote:

BERNARD BRIGGS. wrote:Ali in my opinion was vastly over rated and would have trouble winning a WBO title today.

This is true and I have to agree.

Ali is as sick man in his mid 60's whom has trouble walking great distances these days, which would make him an easy target for the likes of Valuev, Briggs and many other of todays top Heavyweights.

thnx for that post.

Not sure if the Author is trying to flame or if its his/her's genuine opinion?

If it is their respective opinion, then fine, so be it.

I could argue all day regarding the Authors (imo inaccurate and wholly dubious) claims.

However seeing fellow posters replies to this thread, i dont think its neccesary.

people who say ali is the best of all time makes me laugh ! how the bloody hell is ali better than any of the sugar's. lets be honset he lost to spinks in his 8th fight got dropped by a tough but limted herny copper and got given up all the trouble in the world by a man 1 with eye and who ali said himself was shot joe frazier. id even go as far as sayin ali isint better than tito trinidad floyd mayweather joe calazghe de loya etc ! and people to say hes better than any of them in the fablous 4 makes me laugh !

Jeez louise why has this thread been bumped???

People who bring up an Ali already beginning to suffer from Parkinsons losing to Spinks as some 'knock' on his legacy is just flat-out pathetic and stupid.

And he was a big heavyweight . . .6'3 and after training his ass off a chiseled 212 lbs. If he stood next to the likes of Chagaev, Haye, and Chambers his body frame would look noticeably bigger. Even old and with bad posture next to Evander in the early 90s you could tell he was bigger than him. With an 80' reach and only shorter by 3 inches he wouldn't have to 'get inside' on the Klitschkos, he would be able to land via hand and foot speed alone.

danieljenkins wrote:people who say ali is the best of all time makes me laugh ! how the bloody hell is ali better than any of the sugar's. lets be honset he lost to spinks in his 8th fight got dropped by a tough but limted herny copper and got given up all the trouble in the world by a man 1 with eye and who ali said himself was shot joe frazier. id even go as far as sayin ali isint better than tito trinidad floyd mayweather joe calazghe de loya etc ! and people to say hes better than any of them in the fablous 4 makes me laugh !

daniel, i'm sure you're a nice guy and if you think ali is overrated i'm not going to argue with you. BUT, you listing calzaghe here made me respond. calzaghe imo is the most overrated fighter ever and he's not even rated that high. i can't believe anyone could suggest that calzaghe is greater than ali. joe is not even worthy of wiping ali's ass after he takes a dump. joe hid for the entire prime of his career with his wbo belt while ali had some of the biggest fights in the history of boxing. this is like comparing michael jordan to tyler hansbrough.

What Aaron Pryor is to BoxBuzz, Joe Calzaghe is fast becoming to BJermaine

Hold on G.I. I once held Joe C in equal disdain, and then Joe proved me wrong with his deeds in the ring, and I have gained a new appreciation for him.

HOwever, A.P. to date has not been able to crawl out of the dark dank set of static facts that surround his career. And it appears the clock has run out on him.

BoxBuzz wrote:Hold on G.I. I once held Joe C in equal disdain, and then Joe proved me wrong with his deeds in the ring, and I have gained a new appreciation for him.

HOwever, A.P. to date has not been able to crawl out of the dark dank set of static facts that surround his career. And it appears the clock has run out on him.

Well, given Calzaghe's retired, I don't think Bjerm's about to change his mind anytime soon.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Hold on G.I. I once held Joe C in equal disdain, and then Joe proved me wrong with his deeds in the ring, and I have gained a new appreciation for him.

HOwever, A.P. to date has not been able to crawl out of the dark dank set of static facts that surround his career. And it appears the clock has run out on him.

Well, given Calzaghe's retired, I don't think Bjerm's about to change his mind anytime soon.

exactly! i'm not saying calzaghe wasn't a good fighter, i'm just saying he's didn't do near enough in his career to be called an ATG.

Be interested to hear your take on Ricardo Lopez's credentials as an all-time great, BJ.

daniel, i'm sure you're a nice guy and if you think ali is overrated i'm not going to argue with you. BUT, you listing calzaghe here made me respond. calzaghe imo is the most overrated fighter ever and he's not even rated that high. i can't believe anyone could suggest that calzaghe is greater than ali. joe is not even worthy of wiping ali's ass after he takes a dump. joe hid for the entire prime of his career with his wbo belt while ali had some of the biggest fights in the history of boxing. this is like comparing michael jordan to tyler hansbrough.[/quote]


im sure your a nice guy to lol and joe didnt hide from anyone is his prime of his career he just didnt sell tickets to get fights with the likes of roy jones in his prime !

danieljenkins wrote:
im sure your a nice guy to lol and joe didnt hide from anyone is his prime of his career he just didnt sell tickets to get fights with the likes of roy jones in his prime !

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?hu ... &cat=boxer

i was going to respond by writing a paragraph but i'll just put the url. look at the years between 2000-2005. his lists of opponents is disgraceful for a so called champ.

As if Jones' is so much better

You are so hypocritical on this one subject, BJ.

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?hu ... &cat=boxer

i was going to respond by writing a paragraph but i'll just put the url. look at the years between 2000-2005. his lists of opponents is disgraceful for a so called champ.[/quote]


but the thing is mate he cant make people fight him to much of a risk and little money ! he showed his worth against hopkins lacy bika and kessler who in imo is the best super middle out there today at this was when he was over 30 i would of loved to see these big names in usa fight joe in his prime !

Goodnight, Irene wrote:As if Jones' is so much better

You are so hypocritical on this one subject, BJ.

this discussion is about if calzaghe is greater than ali. hold on, i can't believe i just typed that sentence and i'm having to respond. i've already said that jones had some crap mandatory defenses and he should be criticized for them but the big difference between joe and roy is that roy at his best was great. jones was named 90's fighter of the decade. let's count how many awards joe has won.

fighter of the year: 0
fight of the year: 0
round of the year: 0

were any of his fights named event of the year?, nope. a few years ago the ring named their 80 best fighters of the last 80 years. calzaghe wasn't even close to being ranked. in all fairness, calzaghe did just win the bwaa's manager of the year. how are you manager of the year when you do a crap job of promoting your last fight which did horrible ppv numbers? anyway, compare ali's awards next to joe's and i think you'll have an idea of who the greater fighter is.

^^^Red herring central, there.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:^^^Red herring central, there.

let me get this straight. i know you don't think much of jones but do you really think calzaghe is a greater fighter than ali?

bjermaine wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:^^^Red herring central, there.

let me get this straight. i know you don't think much of jones but do you really think calzaghe is a greater fighter than ali?

Nothing Irene says would surprise me.

Methinks she just wants to be noticed.

Collins2000 wrote: Nothing Irene says would surprise me.

Methinks she just wants to be noticed.

true, she's been stalking me around these boards for some time now.

bjermaine wrote:

Collins2000 wrote: Nothing Irene says would surprise me.

Methinks she just wants to be noticed.

true, she's been stalking me around these boards for some time now.

The Wrath of Irene!

muhammad ali

great physique. fast. ring wise. great defense.
very strong chin.
probably the one heavyweight that could move
as well as ray robinson.

hail! hail! to the great one ...

i have him in my mid top 10 heavies oh well

I dnt think ALI was over rated, ALI would walk all over todays heavyweights, the HW division today is a joke, the world used to like watching HW now they rather watch the lighter boys...

Amsterdam wrote:

Mikee wrote:we should have a little 10 point quiz to decide if people are allowed on here.

How the eff was Ali over-rated? Someone tell me in a PROPER thought out post...... No? because he is not.

Excellent hand speed, great technique, good footwork.

Would beat Klitschko, Briggs and Maskaev.

If he did not beat Valuev it would be nothing to do with being over-rated, it would be Valuevs size...

If thats your opinion mate then fair play to you.

Valuev would be the easiest, he's complete garbage. His size wasn't much of an issue against Larry Donald, an older fringe contender with a basic set of skills, yet Valuev had to be given a gift decision. Ali would pepper him and Valuev wouldn't land much of anything.

Briggs, Klitschko and Maskaev are all more than Valuev.

Larry Donald took Valuev apart. I had that fight by four points for Donald and it is a crystal clear minimum four points.