David Tua vs Rocky Marciano

[HomicideHenry]

Champion is champion in my book. Former or otherwise.

As for Tua, the only champions he ever dethroned were:

Fres Oquendo (NABF)
Hasim Rahman (USBA/IBF title eliminator; former champ)
John Ruiz (WBC International)
Michael Moorer (former champ)

So............tell me...........how is Tua a dethroner of champions, when only two were former champs, one was a future WBA champ, and the other was just a contender and champion of a minor title? He's only one up on Cooney.

[Collins2000]

Champion is champion in my book. Former or otherwise.

As for Tua, the only champions he ever dethroned were:

Fres Oquendo (NABF)
Hasim Rahman (USBA/IBF title eliminator; former champ)
John Ruiz (WBC International)
Michael Moorer (former champ)

So............tell me...........how is Tua a dethroner of champions, when only two were former champs, one was a future WBA champ, and the other was just a contender and champion of a minor title? He's only one up on Cooney.

I'll let you in one a little secret Rufus. Neither of them knocked any reigning world belt holders cold. Period.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Champion is champion in my book. Former or otherwise.

As for Tua, the only champions he ever dethroned were:

Fres Oquendo (NABF)
Hasim Rahman (USBA/IBF title eliminator; former champ)
John Ruiz (WBC International)
Michael Moorer (former champ)

So............tell me...........how is Tua a dethroner of champions, when only two were former champs, one was a future WBA champ, and the other was just a contender and champion of a minor title? He's only one up on Cooney.

- Ruiz/Rahman/Moorer = "Champion is champion in my book. Former or otherwise."

As I previously layed out. Go read and catch up, and do note that they were in prime or near prime years, not well past it like Norton was against Cooney. The notion of Tua "dethroning" champions is your language, not mine.

Get with the program.

[Ezzard]

The style of the fighters is interesting...

A Foreman or a Liston is going to squash Rocky. I'd even favour Tyson. Tua is not in this class though.

Ikeabuchi could be a problem fighter but how good he was or wasn't we will never know. After that Marciano would handle the rest of Tua's opponents, other than Lewis, without a hiccup. I can't see Tua beating Walcott or Charles in light of the Byrd fight.

So it sort of comes down to can Marciano beat a bigger slugger in a shoot-out and where is the bar? Tua is powerful and durable. He could get the job done. But I think Marciano's stamina and pace will see him through the dangerous early rounds and he would slowly over the fight.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Layne with a career KO% under 50% with no fighter of note KOed save Satterfield who must've been KOed a dozen or more times. Out of retirement Louis had a 30% KO ratio in 10 fights, clearly not the Lewis of old, but rampaging through the heavy ranks like caped wrecking ball hero they were according to you.

Rex Layne was 34-1 with 25 knockouts when he fought rocky marciano. a knockout percentage of 74%. Layne had a short prime, but during it he was a dangerous fighter.


"Throw out the record book on Layne, he was a rugged brawler with a quick, very heavy right. As he got shopworn and discouraged, more and more, he got outworked and beaten down.

But, when he first raged out of Utah -- full of piss and vinegar -- he'd have been a handful for anybody. He could crack with that right."- Boxing Historian Joe Rein


"Layne looms as the outstanding prospect west of the
Mississippi. He is a hard hitter... Layne has what it takes to be developed
into the next world heavyweight king. He can hit and has an abundance of
courage." - Nat Fleischer wrote in 1951



THE RIGHT LAYNE
By NAT LOUBET

REX LAYNE, heavyweight challenger, had just added another victim to his collection. Bob Satterfield, Chicagoan, had been raining punches off Rex's cocoanut-like noggin all night. The cherubic-faced Mormon from Lewiston, Utah, fondeled the sore spots. Satterifeld had been laid to rest in 2:56 of the eighth canto when Mark Conn, the arbiter, halted the contest with Bob helples from a short right to the jaw.
The bout had been an even-steven affair up to the knockout, although Layne had received all his punches in one locality- the cephalic, or, as the inmates of Stillman's Gym would have it, the kisser.
It was suggested right after the contest that Rex had youth, strength, could take and give it, had showed improvement in his boxing form since his last two Garden appearances against Jersey Joe Walcott and Cesar Brion, respectively, but that he was still green and needed much seasoning in the technique of boxing.
Marvin Jensen, the mink-raising guardian of Layne's ring fortunes, rushed to the defense. "He can box a lot better than he has shown since coming East. Did you see that boy punch? Ole Rex here sure has what it takes. He's full of fight.
"Yeah," someone said, "but how long will he be full of fight if he doesn't learn how to protect himself better?"
Rex interrupted: "A couple more fights like this and I'll be playing marbles," he quipped.
Regardless of his record, an enviable on of 32 fights with only one loss, that to Dave Whitlock whom he defeated in two other outings, it is clear that Rex will have his greatest trouble with fast men who can move around. He won't lose anything by picking up a little more polish in the finer points of boxing.

REX started his boxing career while a sergeant with the 187th Regiment of the 11th Airborne Division, located in the Asiatic theatre. He had enlisted in September, 1946, and was mustered out in March, 1948. In the interim, he won regimental and divisional titles. He came close to carrying home the bacon in the All-Japan tournaments in 1947 and 1948, and but a lad by the name of Howard Williams kept him from achieving that end.
It wasn't until 1949 that Layne made the simon-pure "big time." In that year he won the National A.A.U. championship and a few months later turned professional. His amateur record stands at 26 fights, with only four losses.
After Layne's unimpressive win over Cesar Brion we were visited by the mild-mannered, bashful, boyish Rex and his enthusiastic manager, Jensen.
Jensen recounted the thrill in seeing the best of the breed come into its own; how he had thrilled in raising the best mink and now he was seeing "ole Rex" become a serious contender for heavyweight honors.
It was less than two years ago that THE RING picked Layne as a comer, and he has kept faith by making the grade.
A group had gathered and someone said, "Rex has a whale of a right, but why doesn't he use his left more?"
Jensen jumped into the breach. "Ole Rex here has a dandy of a left hand but he injured it in an early fight and only recently has he started to develop it again."
Rex cut in with: "That's right. My left is beginning to shape up again. I feel it in my gym workouts, and I'll be using it more as I go along."
In his fight with Satterfield, Rex showed improvement with that left, and better boxing form, but he is still way off in ring science and unless he learns how to protect himself, how to avoid powerful wallops such as he got in the Satterfield bout, he'll fail to reach his objective. He's too wide open for punishment.

JENSEN has been the butt of a great deal of criticism from New York scribes for the manner in which he has brought Layne along. His critics claim that his boy was too green for the likes of a Walcott; should never have been in with an awkward spoiler like Brion, and that Satterfield was too strong a puncher for the Utah youngster.
"He's being fed to the lions," has been the cry. But Layne has defeated all three, and by so doing, he is now in a spot to demand recognition as a top challenger. After all, success is what counts, and Layne has come through with victories. His T.N.T. sock and courage have done that for him.
Critics assert that Jensen has not had the experience in the pro league. Yes, he's developed a bevy of amateurs, but the manager of a big-time professional is different, has been the butt of the criticism.
Well, Jensen had to take more chances than other managers or else not get any matches at all for Layne. He was up against it and has won out. The choices that he accepted have all worked out well for Layne, despite the fact that the opposition was exceedingly tough.
Some claim that Layne must receive expert tutoring in boxing technique, tutorin that an old-timer must give. Well, Jensen has one of the best old-time managers in his corner in Joe Woodeman, former manager of Sam Langford, who should be able to advis properly.
We recall a conversation with Jensen prior to Layne's fight with Walcott in which he stated that he wasn't advancing the easy way. "I'm sure Walcott can be beaten by Rex. I've studied the movies of his previous fights and I know what I'm doing. He continued: "There's too much picking of opponents today. If a man wants to be champ he must prove that right by fighting the best."
Results talk, and Layne is up there, but we would like to see him taught more of the finer points. Continuing to take two to land one is likely to end as Layne himself stated: "A couple more fights like this and I'll be playing marbles."
We were shooting the bull a few days prior to the Satterfield affair. Someone made a crack about how Layne looked too young to be of age.
Joe Woodman said: "He'll be 23 in June." He turned to Layne, who was present. "Right?"
Rex said: "I was born June 7, 1928."
"What time?" someone joshed.
Someone else cut in: "Did you ever do anything else but fight for a living?"
"Sure," laughed Rex. "My father owns a farm in Lewiston and I worked on it until I went into the army."
"Say, Rex," interrupted a bystander, "you're not married, are yuh?"
--------- This goes into a lot of talk about Layne's family and whatever else, so I'll just cut to the end-------
We asked Joe Woodman, who has been close to the youngster, what kind of boy he is.
"A grand lad," said Joe. "He lives a clean life, trains hard and is a good family man-and don't forget... a darn good fighter."
The last time we saw Layne was the day after his fight with Satterfield, when he was in THE RING office with Jensen.
"What's you ambition?" Rex was asked.
"What a question to ask a fighter," he countered. I want to be a champ and some day have a restaurant of my own like Jack Dempsey."
Both Dempsey and Gene Tunney had seen Layne in his fight with Satterfield and were high on him. "Polish up his defense and you have a prospective champ," was their chorus.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

of retirement Louis had a 30% KO ratio in 10 fights, clearly not the Lewis of old, but rampaging through the heavy ranks like caped wrecking ball hero they were according to you.

Are you sure Louis still couldnt punch? Theck this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR9zg7B-4p8

Louis poor KO ratio was due to him fighting Young ranked defensive oriented fighters who stayed away from him. Jimmy Bivins was too defensive and had a great chin, a man like that doesnt get knocked out. Cesar Brion was Young, ranked, had a rock chin, and was defensive. thats hard fighter to knock out. Omelio Agramonte was Young, great footwork and very flashy and ran all night, another hard fighter to knock out. Louis still managed to catch Agramonte with a right hand and put him down for a 9 count in the rematch. Everyone who stood in front of him in 1950-1951 outside of Rocky Marciano got knocked out. That includes Pat Valentino and Nino Valdez in exhibition matches. Lee Savold was the heavyweight champion of the world recognized by BBC. Savold was had a STEEL chin and been knocked out only once in the past 10 years(By Violent Ray). With one short left hook Louis nearly decapitated Savold. Even in the Marciano and Charles losses, Louis busted both of there faces up horribly with huge welts. Louis always had natural power in his fists, power that doesnt suddenly go away...In terms of brute power...Louis punches at 6'2 215lb were going to have alot of effect on Sub 200lb men.

"When I fought Louis, one thing he still had was his punch. He could still hit very hard. His speed and reflexes were not there, but the power was." - Jimmy Bivins in 1951


My Conclusion: though Louis did not have the reflexes anymore to put together fight finishing combinations on young contenders, he still hit very hard with one punch. Whenever a Louis punch landed on an opponent in 1950-1951 it would cause alot of damage to a fighters face.

[pringle]

Part of your argument hinges on who Marciano beat? LOL!

Get real, mate. Now do an analysis of the superior opposition you imply Tua defeated by way of critiquing Marciano's opposition.

Louis, Charles, Walcott, Matthews, LaStarza, Moore --- chicken-feed, apparently, in the face of Ruiz, Rahman (fvckin' barely, I might add), Maskaev, Izon & co

Marciano would make soup out of Tua's ribs.

You sir... are an anti-Samoan!

[Djanders]

I like Tua...enjoyed his fights...but he is not in the same league with Marciano...in my opinion. I have to go with Rocky in this one.