BoxRec

Oh, and I'll point out some more of the ridiculous flaws in Controversial's utterly biased and partial post.
He likes to say 'so-and-so lost x number of his previous or future fights.' You notice, he picks the more negative one to say every time. For instance, he mentions that Eddie Ross had 12 more fights after fighting Marciano, and won 9 of them, losing three. But when talking about other fighters who did well in their fights after facing Marciano, he states how they might have done poorly in their fights BEFORE Marciano. He shows exactly the number that will reflect most negatively on Marciano's opponents. Another example. He says Charles lost 13 out of his remaining 23 fights after facing Marciano. Perfectly true, but I could also give the figure, which is also perfectly true, that Charles WON 4 out of his next 5 fights after Marciano, and the only loss in those was avenged. AFTER THAT, Charles went on a bad losing streak with very few wins. But because, especially at the tail end of those 23 bouts, he lost a lot, Controversial's able to come up with a worse figure by extending the number, and he does it. But he shrinks it if that will also help his argument. He says Charles lost 2 of his last 4 fights before fighting Marciano. But he could also say Charles WON 11 out of his last 13 fights before facing Marciano. Why doesn't he do that? Because it would reflect positively on Marciano's opponent, and that damages his argument severely. If he's going to take the figure of his last and next 4 fights, fine. But he HAS to be consistent. He isn't. You know why? Because he is doing his very best job to make Marciano look bad. He takes any figure that will reflect badly, and finds the way to turn it to the worst possible light. Tomorrow, I'll make a list of Marciano's opponents that is reasonable, and uses the same standard for each opponent. I think I'll list how they did in their last 5, and how they did in their next 5. Then, you'll have an unbiased, impartial list that doesn't use favoritism to skew the numbers like Controversial's, and you can judge for yourselves. I'll also give my opinions in a proceeding post.

I've really got to stick up a bit here for Controversial. I found his posts on this thread not only well researched and knowledgeable but also well balanced - certainly far more well balanced than some of the replies.

The crazy thing is, most of you are closer to agreeing with him than you care to admit.

Marciano Frazier wrote:Once again, I don't think Marciano was the greatest. Some people magnify Marciano's accomplishments more than they should. He never lost, but did he fight everyone ever? No. So never losing says nothing about whether he could've been beaten. He never fought Ali or Foreman or Liston, etc., so his undefeated record hardly means he couldn't've lost to them, like some people interpret it. I just can't stand how incredibly hard on him some people are, and unreasonably so.

Like Controversial, I also believe Marciano was overrated. That's it - overrated. Is that a criticism? I think not. Everything in that quote I agree with so you obviously agree with us both, MF. Argue with your head and not your heart and it'll all become much clearer.

terap wrote:A physical fighter like Marciano takes more out of an opponent than just one fight's worth.

Look at what his opponents did after they fought him.
Invariably they were way downhill after fighting Marciano.

Henry Armstrong is another example of a physical fighter who affected opponents the same way.

Very true. I've been saying that, but it constantly gets ignored.

tolstoy wrote:I've really got to stick up a bit here for Controversial. I found his posts on this thread not only well researched and knowledgeable but also well balanced - certainly far more well balanced than some of the replies.

The crazy thing is, most of you are closer to agreeing with him than you care to admit.

Marciano Frazier wrote:Once again, I don't think Marciano was the greatest. Some people magnify Marciano's accomplishments more than they should. He never lost, but did he fight everyone ever? No. So never losing says nothing about whether he could've been beaten. He never fought Ali or Foreman or Liston, etc., so his undefeated record hardly means he couldn't've lost to them, like some people interpret it. I just can't stand how incredibly hard on him some people are, and unreasonably so.

Like Controversial, I also believe Marciano was overrated. That's it - overrated. Is that a criticism? I think not. Everything in that quote I agree with so you obviously agree with us both, MF. Argue with your head and not your heart and it'll all become much clearer.

"I've really got to stick up a bit here for Controversial. I found his posts on this thread not only well researched and knowledgeable but also well balanced - certainly far more well balanced than some of the replies."
Once again, his opinions were EXTREMELY biased. He was intentionally citing only the numbers that would reflect badly on Marciano's, or if he couldn't find any, he'd just dismiss them as having been a former light heavyweight or some similar thing. I'll give an example again- Controversial said that Charles had lost two of his last 4 and went on to lose 13 out of his next twenty-three. Sounds pretty bad, right? And it was true, too. BUT, I could also say that Charles had won 11 of his last 13 and went on to win 4 of his next 5- that sounds pretty good, now doesn't it? If you switch around the numbers just right, you can make them look good OR bad. Controversial intentionally cited only negative numbers about the fighters who faced Marciano. He was EXTREMELY unfaird and unbalanced in his post.
"Like Controversial, I also believe Marciano was overrated. That's it - overrated. Is that a criticism? I think not. Everything in that quote I agree with so you obviously agree with us both, MF. Argue with your head and not your heart and it'll all become much clearer."
I think that the people who rate Marciano as #1 overrate him, but he is not generally overrated.

I think the question of Marciano vs Liston is particularly interesting since their boxing careers overlapped.

Cojimar 1945 wrote:I think the question of Marciano vs Liston is particularly interesting since their boxing careers overlapped.

You are funny

Nobody has seen this thread in over 2 years, most of the guys arguing it are retired, and i wasn't even here when the debate was going on.

Rocky Marciano had the same manager as Ricky Hatton, i think it's quite obvious his opponents were carefully selected.

I agree with the guy who started the thread, he was overrated, no doubt about it, most people who aren't pro-italian see it that way, he was good, but not as good as his record makes him look.

opponents carefully selected????? marciano fought the best opposition available. '



and marcianos manager is dead. has been since like 1970.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:opponents carefully selected????? marciano fought the best opposition available. '



and marcianos manager is dead. has been since like 1970.

Wow, you must get beat up a lot at school

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:opponents carefully selected????? marciano fought the best opposition available.

Yeah...and they were all 'over the hill'

Thought for a minute there that the Terapster was back

is bernard hopkinw over the hill??? no then neither is jersey joe. and ezzard and archie moore got themselves back into prime shape menatally and physcially for that fight.


no i dont get beat up ib school. im in college buddy. and if i ever see u i will kick the ever loving shit out of u.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:is bernard hopkinw over the hill??? no then neither is jersey joe. and ezzard and archie moore got themselves back into prime shape menatally and physcially for that fight.


no i dont get beat up ib school. im in college buddy. and if i ever see u i will kick the ever loving shit out of u.

You wish punk

Not with all the Marciano wannabees in the world helping you.

You're such a halfwit, practice kicking the shit out of yourself for being so stupid and see how that goes.

UR A HEAVYWEIGHT RIGHT????

WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF A PRIME MARCIANO GOT IN THE RING AGAISNT U IN UR "PRIME" .????? UR A BIG TOUGH GUY RIGHT???? TELL THE FORUM WHAT WOULD HAPPEN


LETS SEE HOW STUPID U REALLY ARE

sweet swcientist. i know u hate marciano and have a grudge against him SO LISTEN. marciano frazier did a excellent job explaining it earlier but u failed to read it because u dont want to hear anything good about marciano..


and by the way, ROCKY'S OPPONENTS BECAME OVER THE HIL AFTER ROCKY FACED THEM BECAUSE HE BEAT THEM UP SO BAD AND RUINED THEIR SPIRITS AND HUNGER. ROCK TOOK EVERYTHING ABOUT OF THEM. U DONT LISTEN.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:sweet swcientist. i know u hate marciano and have a grudge against him SO LISTEN. marciano frazier did a excellent job explaining it earlier but u failed to read it because u dont want to hear anything good about marciano..


and by the way, ROCKY'S OPPONENTS BECAME OVER THE HIL AFTER ROCKY FACED THEM BECAUSE HE BEAT THEM UP SO BAD AND RUINED THEIR SPIRITS AND HUNGER. ROCK TOOK EVERYTHING ABOUT OF THEM. U DONT LISTEN.

Bull Shit...I rate Marciano tied for 10th (with Joe Frazier)...which I posted years ago on a Top 10 heavyweights thread here...I think Marciano was indeed a great fighter...but there are 9 guys who were better than him...it's that simple...and whenever I hear your unbelievably biased reasons why that's not true...I just have to point that out to you...maybe YOU DON'T LISTEN...

As I said before, the individual who started this thread(Controversial) was obviously intentionally putting an intense negative spin on Marciano and his opposition. For every match, he cited whatever numbers made Marciano's opponent sound worst, or, if his opponent's numbers were good, he looked for flaws in Marciano's performance. If Marciano struggled with a fighter or if a fighter was particularly bad, he lingered on it and made sure to highlight and exaggerate the opponent's flaws(physical or record-wise) and whatever struggles Marciano may have had, while if Marciano won impressively, he just skirted around it.
If Marciano's opponent was coming off a winning streak but started losing after the Marciano fight, Controversial cited the losses afterwards and ignored the wins. If the fighter was losing before fighting Marciano and instead won his proceeding fights(although that is extremely rare with Marciano), Controversial cited the losses before facing Marciano and ignored the wins afterwards. If the fighter's record was impeccable, he went after the guy's size and/or age and ignored the record. No objectivity at all. Any fighter and his opponents can be made to look good or bad, depending on what spin you'd like to put on it.

If I wanted to, I could go through his opponents and put a positive spin on it, and Marciano would look indestructible. All you have to do is find something about the fighter and/or fight that suits your agenda, then highlight it and ignore any information to the contrary.

Here, let's give it a try for a moment. NOTE: I am intentionally putting a positive spin on all these fights, so don't mistake this for being my idea of an accurate representation of Marciano's record. It's just what Controversial did, but flipped on its head.

1) Lee Epperson 0-0 KO 3
Epperson had an impressive amateur career, was seen as a prospect, and was expected to beat Marciano, but Rocky flattened him in three rounds.

2) Harry Balzerian 0-3 TKO 1
An impressive first-round knockout for the inexperienced Marciano.

3) John Edwards 1-1 KO 1
Another first-round knockout from the Brockton Blockbuster.

4) Bobby Quinn 8-0 KO 3
Quinn was a highly regarded prospect with a lot more experience than Marciano. Marciano was put in with him expected to be knocked out, but instead overcame considerable experience disadvantages and impressively knocked Quinn out.

5) Eddie Ross 26-0 KO 1
This was an experience mismatch in a fight where Marciano was seen as a sacrificial lamb to build up Ross' record. Marciano won very impressively with a knockout in only 63 seconds of the first round.

6) Jimmy Weeks 0-0 KO 1
Marciano's sixth knockout and fourth first-round knockout in six pro fights.

7) Jerry Jackson 2-1 KO 1
Jackson was a huge guy, weighed 254 pounds, and Marciano knocked him out with a left hook barely 30 seconds into round one.

8) Bill Hardeman 0-4 KO 1
Marciano's second fight in two weeks, and yet another first round knockout.

9) Gilbert Cardione 0-1 KO 1
Just 10 days after his last fight, a 36-second knockout for Marciano.

10) Bob Jefferson 3-2 TKO 2
Marciano's third fight in two weeks, with still another early-round knockout win.

11) Pat Connoly 8-5 KO 1
Connoly was a big guy, 6'5" and 213 pounds, and couldn't last out of the first round.

12) Gilley Ferron 0-2 TKO 2
Marciano's 12th consecutive knockout, and no one had lasted out of the first three rounds with him at this point!

13) Johnny Pretzie 7-6 TKO 5
Pretzie had won his last two fights, the most recent one by a first-round KO. Marciano beat him so badly he never won another fight.

14) Artie Donato 9-5 KO 1
The fight only lasted 23 seconds before Donato was on his back!

15) James Walls 9-14-1 KO 3
Marciano gets the job done early yet again.

16) Jimmy Evans 18-7 TKO 3
Evans was an experienced, solid fighter with some skill, and Marciano destroyed him impressively. Marciano was now 16-0 with 16 KO's!

17) Don Mogard 15-8 UD 10
Mogard was a slick, tough defensive fighter who was never stopped in his entire career.

18) Harry Haft 12-6 KO 3
A solid journeyman disposed of in short order

19) Pete Louthis 23-12-3
An experienced, solid journeyman, once again disposed of in short order.

20) Tommy Giorgio 10-9 KO 4
Marciano's 19th knockout in 20 fights!

21) Ted Lowry 57-46-8 UD 10
Lowry was a much better fighter than his record indicates. He was like the Emmanuel Augustus of his day. Many of his losses were bad decisions on short notice in the other guy's hometown, and he had draws with top contenders Lee Savold and Lee Oma. Lowry was stopped only three times in over 130 pro fights.

22) Joe Dominic 18-10 KO 2
Dominic had beaten top contender Tami Mauriello just two months before facing Marciano.

23) Pat Richards 22-6-5 KO 2
Richards was a fairly good fighter. This was Marciano's Madison Square Garden debut. He knocked Richards unconscious through the ropes less than a minute into the second round.

24) Phil Muscato 56-20 TKO 5
Muscato was a good fighter who only a couple years earlier had been ranked at the bottom of the top 10 in the world by RING Magazine. He had previously beaten Joey Maxim and Lee Savold. Marciano knocked him down every round and Muscato was never in the fight.

25) Carmine Vingo 16-1 KO 6
Vingo was a good young heavyweight, 6'4" and only 20 years old. His one loss was a 4-round decision to another up-and-coming young contender. Vingo was put in a coma from this knockout and nearly died.

26) Roland LaStarza 37-0 SD 10
LaStarza was undefeated with more experience than Marciano, coming off a big win over Cesar Brion. Hailing from the Bronx, LaStarza was the first New York heavyweight contender in quite some time and the fight was held in LaStarza's backyard at New York, NY. LaStarza was down hard and saved by the bell at the end of round 4.

27) Eldridge Eatman 14-19-3 TKO 3
A staying-busy fight on Rocky's part. After Rocky mopped the floor with Eatman, Eatman's manager knelt over him and, angry at the referee for allowing the fight to continue as long as he did, screamed "What did you want???"

28) Gino Buonvino 25-11-7 KO 10
Buonvino was the former Italian heavyweight champion and a respected journeyman. The fight was a bit difficult because it was fought outside in heavy rain and wind, but Marciano came through with a brutal knockout in the last round.

29) Johnny Shkor 29-18-2 TKO 6
Shkor was a big guy at 6'2(I've heard 6'4" as well) and 220 pounds, and was a decent fighter with a punch. Rocky knocked him down four times in the fifth and sixth rounds.

30) Ted Lowry 60-54-9 UD 10
See fight 21.

31) Big Bill Wilson 42-11-2 TKO 1
Wilson was a big guy at 230 pounds, was a powerful puncher and a decent fighter. Like most of the big guys Rocky fought, he didn't make it out of the first round.

32) Keene Simmons 8-8-1 KO 8
Simmons was a guy much better than his record, put in hard from the beginning of his career, coming off a 2-round destruction of highly-regarded young heavyweight George Kaplan. Marciano bashed his face in so badly his nose was nearly twisted around in a circle. Simmons later went the distance with guys like Cleveland Williams.





Whew! Anyway, you get the picture. I'm wasting too much time on this at the moment. The point is, you can make him look either good or bad depending on the way you spin it.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:UR A HEAVYWEIGHT RIGHT????

WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF A PRIME MARCIANO GOT IN THE RING AGAISNT U IN UR "PRIME" .????? UR A BIG TOUGH GUY RIGHT???? TELL THE FORUM WHAT WOULD HAPPEN


LETS SEE HOW STUPID U REALLY ARE

You're sounding more and more like an idiot with posts like this...if you put your brain on a razor blade, it would look like a B B rolling down a four lane highway...

Good stuff marciano frazier. look sweet scientist, dont give me that because u never listen to my posts either. i DO listen to urs. u honestly dont like the guy. and u find it so hard to praise the guy. thats all u can say is hes a good fighter. then u go on with alll that ' he beat up old guys crap" because as explained earlier, walcotts prime was whne he was older and he fought one of his best fiughts against marciano. and u forget marciano knocked him out in 1 in a return bout. and some of u guys underate guys like rex layne and roland la starza. roland was one of the best boxers of the 50s. he could counterpunch jab and box really well. the only guy that really got the best of roland was marciano. also rex layne was a young prime upocoming warrior who was touted as the next champion. rex was over 6' and had good snap in his punches and had some heart because before he fought marciano, he got up after a bob satterfield and knocked out satterfield. had satterfield won, he would have fought marciano. marciano was 27 and may have fought his best fight that fight, he dominated layne really out slugging him and looking great at blocking and dodging laynes punches and in the 6hth marciano landed a hard right and layne stood their for 4 seconds then just fell to the cnavas in a delayed reaction out. layne was never the same again.

and just because i happened to think he was underated and deserves mention in the top 5 doesnt mean i am biased. i have the right to have an opiniony that i think marcianos the 3rd ghreatest heavyweight ever. if u thought foreman was underated and deserves mention, then u would defend ur oopinion on him too right??? and i dont make bad arguements buddy. i am not unrealistic with any of mycomments.

by the way about sonny liston, he is a great powerful intimidating fighter and i dont know how u rate him but i would rate him about 9th. even in his prime, he threw slow powerful punches and could always be countered by speedy punches. he did have a powerful jab and powerful left hook and right. he wasnt even as big as everyone thought he was. ali was a lot bigger than sonny. and sonny never beat world class top hall of famers besides patterson who was made for liston. listons best win other than patterson was over cleveland williams who was a dangerous puncher and he was able to nearly knock out liston in one of their bouts. and cleveland, zora folley, and machen were all wrothwhile top contenders but he never beat a great champion. machen gave liston trouble too. i do think liston had some heart but liston was also messed up in the head from prison. liston was scared of crazy people, because thats what he dealt with in prison and ali acted crazy tpoward him in pre fight so liston thought he was crazy and it honestly threw him off.

terap wrote:Hey, you left out that Marciano fought Cleaveland Williams ---who was missing one kidney, ten feet of his small intestine, and had a shriveled left leg from nerve damage from being shot in the stomach by a Texas policeman a year and half before their fight,

and fought Floyd Patterson, who came into the fight with a sore back, and whose cornermen tried to give him chiropractic adjustments to his back between rounds,

or Leon Spinks who as a 7 fight novice beat Marciano and won his title

or Leon Spinks, who showed up filled up with cocaine for their 2nd fight and left for the ring without his protector on

and you forgot to mention the illegal extended rest Marciano got between rounds after he was floored by 185 pound Henry Cooper

or that Maricano fought Ken Norton THREE times and never beat him

or that Marciano was made a fool of by nobody Jimmy Young and given a 15 round boxing lesson

or that the murderous muslims connected with Marciano visited his opponent Sonny Liston before their fights and Liston forgot how to fight and "lost" both fights

or that he fought aged Zora Folley

or that he got the sh*t kicked out him by overweight lightheavyweight Doug Jones

or that Marciano QUIT IN HIS CORNER after throwing three punches in the entire fight as soon as Larry Holmes showed he was going to throw some serious punches.

I AM SURPRISED YOU LEFT ALL THOSE OUT.

What a stupid post.

-ALi didn't quit against Holmes . . his corner stopped the fight

- Jones didn't beat, or really come close to beating Clay. He clearly lost the fight.

- You seem to love deriding the wins over Williams, Folley and Patterson (and yes the first two were past their best but they were still good fighters) yet leave out George Foreman, Earnie Shavers, Jerry Quarry, Oscar Bonavena, Ron Lyle, Jimmy Ellis, George Chuvalo, and a win over Frazier in the 3rd fight in one of the gutsiest performances in boxing history. Ali to me was not the greatest of all time and had his flaws but your post is just hate that distorts reality.

A few points about Rocky's opposition, in response to MF and BB:

Walcott was not a 'late bloomer' . . .he gained the championship at a later time b/c he didn't get proper management until a late age. To say his prime was 38 years old is laughable. The Joe who fought Marciano was a dangerous fighter but just watch the film of him vs Rock and then Walcott vs Louis and the Charles fights . . .in the those Walcott doesn't tire by the 4th round. Joe was very crafty and dangerous BUT he was an old man and this helped Marciano, a guy who wore you out by attrition, considerably.

Sorry, Rex Layne was a fringe contender at best. DUe to corruption he got his decisions vs Charles and Walcott (the former being in his own hometown). Just look at the film of Laybe . . .VERY slow, horrible technique . . .some Marciano fans play up this guy as some super dangerous contender and he was far from it . . a tough guy with a punch sums up Layne.

Then could you explain to me how in his supposed "prime" of in his twenties, he suffered losses to guys like abe simon, tiger jack fox, and al ettore?????

YEs he didnt meet felix boccicchio until his thirties which helped him become a better fighter. but walcott was very poor in his twenties and most of his meals would consist of old left overs or very light portions. walcott said he went to bed hungry every night for years. perhaps the fact he was malnourished contributed to his inexperience in the ring. he wasnt as strong. when he met felix, things started to change. he was always smart but learned a lot more technioque and he started eating right the first time and walcott became stronger in his 30s. HE MAY HAVE NOT BEEN A LATE BLOOMER, BUT HE FOUGHT HIS BEST FIGHTS IN HIS mid THIRTIES. that u can gaurantee.

walcott looked just as sharp as he did against marciano as he did against charles and louis. he was very energetic and didnt fight backpeddling like usuall. he came in landing hard punches. and DONT SAY WALCOTT TIRING WAS THE REASON HE LOST THE FIGHT, WALCOTT WON THE 11TH AND 12TH ROUNDS.???? IN THE 11TH HE LANDED THE HARDEST PUNCH OF THE NIGH TO THAT POINT, A RIGHT TO MARCIANOS HAEART. BOTH WALCOTT AND MARCIANO EXCHANGED A LOT IN THAT ROUND. walcott fought his best fights against louis I, charles III, and marciano I. now in the 2nd fight walcottt looked old, backpeddling and seemingly scared. he didnt look like the same walcott in the first fight. the walcott in the first fight had everything to gain and nothing to lose so he went all out and was at his emotional and physical peak.

and sometimes i wonder demspsey fire if rex layne or roland la starza werent much different than luis angel firpo.

I won't contend that Firpo was a great opponent anymore then Laybe was. Both were crude and basically soft defenses who had only a puncher's chance. Firpo was though bigger and stronger then Layne.

You acknowledge Jersey Joe was malnourished and most likely involved in some shady fights to obtain some needed cash before the mid 1940s, yet you wonder how he lost to Fox and Ettore (and Fox was a fine fighter by the way)??? He finally got some big fights with his better management and did fight his best fights later in life, but that's only b/c he got the opportunities later in life . . .was Corrie Sanders better at 37 then he was at 28?? No, but that was when he got his big shot vs Wlad Klitschko. Even taking in the Louis fights, Walcott's fight w/ Louis was 6 years BEFORE his fights with Marciano. You are telling me a fighter won't be noticiably different at 32 then 38?? Walcott fatigued much earlier then he usually did vs Rocky Marciano . . . age was taking its toll, just look at the film. As I stated he was still a very tough customer but that was clearly not a prime Walcott in there . . .

yeah just for the record, in the first louis fight walcott was 33, almost 34.

Walcott may have got his shot later on but the fact is he got better later on or he wouldnt have done well against louis or won the title over charles. Walcott was one of those rare fighters who never seemed to age. unlike sanders, walcott lost to fighters who would he would havebeat had he been fighting in his best years which were 33-38. walcott at 25 could not beat a abe simon. at 33 or 38 he could. he simply got more experienced, better training, more chances, stronger, smarter. Walcott may not be in his "prime" at 38, but he fought one of his top 3 fights at 38 and u cant deny that. he was a very tough and dangerous champion that night against the rock. he got himself into the physical,mental, and fighting peak he could at 38.

I dont think he fatigued. u cant blame that fact that walcott got knocked out because he was fatigued. walcott even in his best day( which it was) couldnt have fought a better fight against marciano. it showed in the 2nd fight. Marciano could not see in the middle rounds which could have been his own corners fault. Luckily, marciano had freddie brown as a cut man who happens to be the greatest cut man of all time and he was able to stop it. walcott seemed to tire in the 8 and 9th rounds which looked like he might be fading but also it could be because both fighters fought at a terrific pace. but thjen walcott got his 2nd wind in the 11th, he had 20 year old legs that night. WALCOTT WON THE 11TH AND 12TH ROUNDS AND SHOWED MORE HUSTLE IN THOSE ROUNDS. if hes triing how did he come on so strong in the later rounds.