BoxRec

he cant be a bum he aint on his record or over 40.

Eraserhead wrote:

RLewis wrote:Clearly Pascal is not a bum, he isn't now, he wasn't then. Just as clearly, Lacy was one-dimensional because Calzaghe made him look one-dimensional. He was also ruined as a fighter, because his corner didn't pull him out after the eighth round. Styles make fights and had Froch faced Lacy, it would have been a completely different fight.

But comparing Froch and Calzaghe at this stage is daft. Yes, Pascal has done incredibly well to win a world title so quickly, but Calzaghe's greatest achievement was being able to continue winning over such a long period of time. To beat Eubank and Kessler a decade apart, is a remarkable achievement whichever way you look at it. He was also a pretty sensational fighter before he became a world champion.

In your attempts to vindicate the way Calzaghe constructed his career, you've also pinpointed exactly why he'll never go down as one of the true greats.

You said...

'Calzaghe's greatest achievement was being able to continue winning over such a long period of time'.

THAT's his greatest achievement? Wow. Sven Ottke's greatest achievement was the same thing. Ray Leonard's greatest achievements were beating an unbeaten Thomas Hearns and returning to the sport and defeating Marvin Hagler. That's what made him great. Fights. Risks. Huge wins at the elite level.

Unbeaten records mean f-all when stacked against the credentials of the genuine greats.

If Froch spends the next 12-18 months beating top, elite fighters, then I don't care how fewer fights than Calzaghe he's had or how shorter his unbeaten streak is. Unfortunately Joe's career didn't start at an elite, world-class level until March 2006.

Exactly. Calzaghe and his fans only care about his blown up 46-0 record, that is entirely what his legacy is based on. Beating a shot Chris Eubank than Mikkell Kessler (which is his second best win) over a long period is not that impressive when you look at who he beat in between, but his fans always conveniently leave that out!

The fact that his big final "hurrah" was against a RJJ who has been done for 4 years and already been knocked out by Johnson and Tarver sums it up. What a great way to end a career

The word "bum" is ridiculously overused in boxing, a bit like the word "legend"

Pascal is clearly not a bum and neither are Calzaghes WBO reign opponents, a bum is somebody like Eric Crumble or Andrew Hartley who regularly get beaten by fighters who weren't anything special to begin with.

Daft comments as usual though out of the Calzaghe camp.

G0mez wrote:

Max Molyneux wrote:Where did Joe say Pascal was a bum? Can't find it on the links posted.

Pascal could of beat Froch if he didn't turn so negative and went into a shell.

Gomez, Froch in 2005 wouldn't of been ready for world level yet, Froch was calling him out since Damon Hague. Calzaghe would smash him then and now. Froch is the current most overrated fighter who would be nothing special without his punch. Froch has backed out of a Calzaghe offer too.

Max, you know nothing except what you want to believe.

If you believe that a legit offer for Froch to fight Calzaghe was turned down then it says more about you than it does Carl.

The guy chased Calzaghe down and no sooner had he been named as #1 contender to the WBC title which Calzaghe held, the welshman vacated.

As a result of this, the WBO then took away their title from Calzaghe. When he found out about this he wrote to them stating that he was only moving up to light heavy for the Hopkins fight and wanted to return and defend it. So they left the title with him.

Pascal was wanted as the man to replace Calzaghe as their champion by the WBO, but he turned down a fight for the interim title against Chicken Inkin and after Taylor backed out of fighting Froch, Pascal stepped up to the plate.

In the weeks before the Froch v Pascal fight, chicken Inkin fought Fulgenico Zuniga.... and 2 days before they fought Calzaghe declared he was giving up the title and thus the two bums duked it out for the full trinket instead of the interim version.

The WBO is a pile of toss and their best champion to hold it only fought one mandatory in all those years....

And by the way, when was the last time Calzaghed 'smashed someone' ?

I'll save you the effort - it was Mario Veit in 2005..... their 'rematch' - Calzaghe's only mandatory.

You Froch's yes-man, you can't say shit about who wants to believe what. Thats a weak excuse dumb boxing fans use when theres someone who doesn't jump on the hype train.

Calzaghe never gave up his WBC because of Froch, he was wanting some last paydays like he got and even the cheating Hopkins would school Froch 12 rounds to 0.

Froch was offered the fight and Froch couldn't say anything other than it was derisory and pretended Mick could offer 1.6 million.

Non of you guys could seriously believe he was ready to chase him when he was the Brit champ. Even now he would get the Lacy treatment, he has nothing in his arsenal that would trouble Joe. Joe on his workrate alone would stop Froch on overwhelming punch volume since he blocks punches with his chin. Joe won't be KO'ed by flappy pigeon punches.

As for debatle wins, the Tatesvosyan stoppage was early and why did he fight an underprapared guy who was just beaten down by Bute less than 2 months earlier? And he fought a shot Reid and was still wobbled!

This isn't like Hatton and Witter, Froch clearly never made a case for a fight with Joe.

Gomez, he smashed many of them, wide points wins don't take away from that. Your guys behind on points generally until he gets the KO at world level. Plus you guy could never bare hump Hopkins from behind which was class, that cheater deserved it.

Clearly Max won't have anything bad said about Calzaghe but...................

Not true, i have said many times how alot of the WBO defences where bad but he clearly was a proven talent still and in the end he got all 4 of the major titles. I don't make too much fuss over op when they have at least shown there clearly good and get there in the end, i hate the way boxing fans moan too much and how over sensitive they are.

Something Froch won't get if he fights Andrade, Bute or Kessler or someone who won't get Ko'ed by a lucky punch.

Max Moleneux, save us the rubbish mate.

Typical over sensitive boxing fan.

So it's Froch who throws "flappy pigeon punches". i thouhgt that was someone else, from britain, at super middle, who did that.

Pascal clearly was a good prospect when he battered former middleweight contender Kingsley Ikeke. He fell off a bit, started fighting carelessly and looked bad in the US fight to buid up a Miranda fight. Showed guts in with Froch, in an outstanding slugging match, and did well enough in WBC title fight to get another shot - up at 175 v countryman Diaconu. Beating Diaconu in a big domestic world title fight, is kind of like what Benn, Eubank & watson were doing.

I don't believe "Joe would easily have beaten Froch/Pascal." Joe's best opponents gave Joe trouble! Woodhall - former middleweight challenger/former short time WBC holder - gave Joe life and death. Reid - won and lost WBC title - almost beat Joe. Mitchell dropped Joe, before Joe stopped him - rare stoppage cos Joe had to get him out of there, and credit for doing so. Well outworked Eubank and Brewer, but considerably shaken in 12th round of both. Kessler - outboxing Joe over 1st 6 rds before Joe figured him out. Down v Hopkins, gets up, shows willpower, takes many lead rights, outworks him - BARELY - in scuffy fight.

some real hard fact's there autobarn :!:

also joe waited till fighters had been beaten,hadnt reid been defeated by a 40yr old malinga & woodhall pumelled by cately??

hurlock wrote:some real hard fact's there autobarn :!:

also joe waited till fighters had been beaten,hadnt reid been defeated by a 40yr old malinga & woodhall pumelled by cately??

"Real hard facts"

Woodhall-Calzaghe wasn't life or death.
Woodhall beat Catley.

Why do you believe "Joe waited until...."? Boxers beat the guy in front of them.
When the Bute fight falls through and Froch ends up with Allan Green, are you going to accuse him of only facing Green because Edison Miranda had already exposed him?

But, Woodhall point besides, thought it was a very fair post Autobarn. Because it again shows other side of argument on Joe, which is the ability to grind out wins when things don't go well. That is possibly the biggest asset a boxer can have.

8 years is a lorra lorra time to step up when you hold a belt.

woodhall, a good fighter with a bad right arm, gave joe lots of problems especially with the right hand! an exciting fight. i'm just saying joe didn't dominate everyone so where are we getting "joe would easily have beaten pascal, froch" from? only world class fighter joe truly dominated was lacy - a great fight to dominate, the perfect fight, but the only 1 domination.

i get the feeling that ppl assume joe can box like this every fight??

froch v green is a good fight. green has had a bad loss v miranda but deserves another chance, made a good statement on froch-taylor undercard.

Autobarn wrote:woodhall, a good fighter with a bad right arm, gave joe lots of problems especially with the right hand! an exciting fight.

Lots of good points here on both sides, but 'Barn', no way on earth can Calzaghe vs Woodhall be described as a life and death struggle - it was seemingly apparent to me at the time and after rewatching it last year that Joe felt able to walk Woodhall down and was prepared to ship a few safe in the knowledge he was just grinding him down. Don't ever recall thinking it was a fight Calzaghe wasn't in complete control of.

ok wasn't life and death, i was exaggerating slightly for dramatic effect. joe controlled the pace, for sur,e but richie pelted him with every right hand he threw. i recall giving richie 3 rounds but joe had to work hard for the win, showed his characteristic drive & intensity. but had to walk through a hell of a lot of right hands. it was a bruising fight, woodhall was battered - and doing backwards rolly polly's at one point. but joe knew he was in a fight. a good fight, one of joe's more competitive & exciting ones for sustained action - but richie is not a puncher.

Max Molyneux wrote:Where did Joe say Pascal was a bum? Can't find it on the links posted.

Pascal could of beat Froch if he didn't turn so negative and went into a shell.

Gomez, Froch in 2005 wouldn't of been ready for world level yet, Froch was calling him out since Damon Hague. Calzaghe would smash him then and now. Froch is the current most overrated fighter who would be nothing special without his punch. Froch has backed out of a Calzaghe offer too.

Max you know next to eff all about boxing, everything I have ever read what you said has taken me to this conclusion.

G0mez wrote:There are absolutely no debatable wins on Froch's record, he won them clearly.

I could give you a couple from Calzaghe where a huge chunk of the audience though he lost - and he never rematched them.

Instead he rematched a chump who'd he'd previously beaten in a bloody round.

Did Froch rematch Tatevosyan? or Tony Dodson? at least they went more than 1.52 seconds like Veit originally did.

Very good point and I would like to add that Calzaghe vs Froch would of been a way bigger fight than most of Calzaghes "defence" even when Froch was relatively un-known and in-experienced on the world stage, way bigger. Calzaghe just didn't fancy it and only he knows the reasons why but I can assure you it wasn't to do with money.

gobbles wrote:

hurlock wrote:some real hard fact's there autobarn :!:

also joe waited till fighters had been beaten,hadnt reid been defeated by a 40yr old malinga & woodhall pumelled by cately??

"Real hard facts"

Woodhall-Calzaghe wasn't life or death.
Woodhall beat Catley.

Why do you believe "Joe waited until...."? Boxers beat the guy in front of them.
When the Bute fight falls through and Froch ends up with Allan Green, are you going to accuse him of only facing Green because Edison Miranda had already exposed him?

But, Woodhall point besides, thought it was a very fair post Autobarn. Because it again shows other side of argument on Joe, which is the ability to grind out wins when things don't go well. That is possibly the biggest asset a boxer can have.

I'm sorry but it was a huge struggle and Calzaghe had his legs stiffened on at least 3 occasions, maybe not life or death but a very tough fight indeed.

Autobarn wrote:ok wasn't life and death, i was exaggerating slightly for dramatic effect. joe controlled the pace, for sur,e but richie pelted him with every right hand he threw. i recall giving richie 3 rounds but joe had to work hard for the win, showed his characteristic drive & intensity. but had to walk through a hell of a lot of right hands. it was a bruising fight, woodhall was battered - and doing backwards rolly polly's at one point. but joe knew he was in a fight. a good fight, one of joe's more competitive & exciting ones for sustained action - but richie is not a puncher.

Gobbles - on Woodhall v Catley. Woodhall got the decision, and was so ashamed, he was in tears. In a moment of honesty, he admitted he didn't win the fight. It was a remarkable scene, for a fighter who could have pretended he won a close fight.

Catley had just come up from middleweight & i think he took the fight at relatively late notice (might be wrong on this).

But the Cat proved he was a force by knocking out Marcus Beyer in Germany, when he grew into super middle.

It just goes to show that Froch is the real deal. He beat Pascal with no hype, for the title. In an absolute war. Then smashes Jermain Taylor, away from home. Another great fight.

The fact that Pascal goes on to beat world class countryman Diaconu, managing a 6 round masterclass and then going back and forth with the heavier man in the thrilling 2nd half...It just goes to show what a good win Froch v Pascal was.

No bullshitting with Carl Froch. He doesn't try to con the audience. He gets reet stuck in!

Pascal has helped give Canadian a kick in the arse. Don't be surprised if a Pascal / Diaconu / Bute series of BIG fights is heralded. If Froch has no TV backing over here, maybe he'll go over there for some more outstanding fights.

Autobarn wrote:It just goes to show that Froch is the real deal. He beat Pascal with no hype, for the title. In an absolute war. Then smashes Jermain Taylor, away from home. Another great fight.

The fact that Pascal goes on to beat world class countryman Diaconu, managing a 6 round masterclass and then going back and forth with the heavier man in the thrilling 2nd half...It just goes to show what a good win Froch v Pascal was.

No bullshitting with Carl Froch. He doesn't try to con the audience. He gets reet stuck in!

Pascal has helped give Canadian a kick in the arse. Don't be surprised if a Pascal / Diaconu / Bute series of BIG fights is heralded. If Froch has no TV backing over here, maybe he'll go over there for some more outstanding fights.

Could not of put it better myself.

Froch's stock has risen thanks to Pascal's great win. All the people who were dismissing Pascal as a championship opponent for Froch have been silenced now. Pascal has proven his fighting qualities at the highest level and has a respected belt to show for it. Froch is already close to eclipsing Calzaghe's achievements and he's only made one defence. Calzaghe moans about Froch continually talking about him, but in the years to come he is going to have to get accustomed to a far worse experience - no-one talking about him anymore.

I feel sorry for Max Molyneux.

How could any boxing fan pour scorn on Froch's achievements, yet lord up Calzaghes ?

Boxrec has a very deep, experienced set of posters who know their sh*t when they post.

Unfortunately Max, you aint one of them

And if you want me to address your 'Froch turned down Calzaghe offer' - they made it 48 hours after Froch had left Sheffield hospital were he'd had a donor anterior cruciate ligament operation. They wanted Froch to fight Calzaghe 9 weeks later.

Hennessy never mentioned anything other in responce than "send us the contract to view" and then a few days later on the Saturday they got another TEXT message saying "£120k last offer" and again they requested to see the contract.

Low and behold "Froch turns down Calzaghe fight" appears in the News Of The World column by Wazza.

Hennessy then got a guranteed £1.8m purse for Calzaghe to fight on Sky at the City Ground (Nottingham Forest) in September and made the counter-offer public but got no response.

nobby_nobbins wrote:Froch's stock has risen thanks to Pascal's great win. All the people who were dismissing Pascal as a championship opponent for Froch have been silenced now. Pascal has proven his fighting qualities at the highest level and has a respected belt to show for it. Froch is already close to eclipsing Calzaghe's achievements and he's only made one defence. Calzaghe moans about Froch continually talking about him, but in the years to come he is going to have to get accustomed to a far worse experience - no-one talking about him anymore.

What an absolutely ridiculous remark. It is a shame how all these threads about Froch descend into this kind of nonsense. Froch has had two good wins, but really. Calzaghe's win over Delaney was a better win than any on Froch's record apart from Taylor, Pascal and Magee, and that was 12 years before Hopkins.

Froch should be able to build his own career now, not constantly be compared to Calzaghe.

And shame on you G0mez, constantly trying to run down Calzaghe to build up your mate.

sg1985 wrote:

G0mez wrote:I feel sorry for Max Molyneux.

How could any boxing fan pour scorn on Froch's achievements, yet lord up Calzaghes ?

Boxrec has a very deep, experienced set of posters who know their sh*t when they post.

Unfortunately Max, you aint one of them

And if you want me to address your 'Froch turned down Calzaghe offer' - they made it 48 hours after Froch had left Sheffield hospital were he'd had a donor anterior cruciate ligament operation. They wanted Froch to fight Calzaghe 9 weeks later.

Hennessy never mentioned anything other in responce than "send us the contract to view" and then a few days later on the Saturday they got another TEXT message saying "£120k last offer" and again they requested to see the contract.

Low and behold "Froch turns down Calzaghe fight" appears in the News Of The World column by Wazza.

Hennessy then got a guranteed £1.8m purse for Calzaghe to fight on Sky at the City Ground (Nottingham Forest) in September and made the counter-offer public but got no response.

well he should have taken the fight for 120k when he had the chance then shouldn't he?

And is he suggesting that the two should have had some sort of pay parity?