BoxRec

Posted: **25 Jun 2009, 14:34**

indeed.

Posted: **25 Jun 2009, 14:47**

I don't like doing era to era match-ups because there are too many intangibles involved. That said, I can't think of five guys who could beat Ali, but of all the heavyweights before or since, I'd give Louis the best shot.

I think Louis could have controlled the fight with his jab in much the same way Norton did in his trilogy with Ali.

I take comfort in the fact that Eddie Futch and Cus D'Amato shared my opinion.

Posted: **25 Jun 2009, 14:54**

BoxBuzz wrote:
raylawpc wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:Would the "Big Guy jabbin'" routine work with Ali? EG: Valuev or the K bros? Did he ever face that? Or do you think his speed would nullify that approach? My guess is that he would simply figure out how to deal with it mid stream if he needed to. The one thing he seemed to typically have was more than one plan, or even be able to whittle a new plan when needed. He was nothing if not creative when the moment required. Combine resourcefulness with a granite chin, great hand and footspeed, decent jab and the ability to deliver good combintations, and you have the reason why we always keep comin' back to this guy (or Joe Lous and his combination of abilities) as the benchmarks for the sport.
Buzz, from his pre-exile fights, Terrell and Duke Sabedong were both 6'6", if memory serves. And Alejandro Lavorante and Charley Powell were in the 6'4" range, as I recall.
Yeah but I just can't remember and would have to go back and take a look at those fights. It may be my bad memory but I can't remember fighters taking the strategy of Valuev and the K bros in terms of how they use their height in combo with their jabs to such a consistently relentless extent.

Watching a 48 year old Holyfield befuddle Valuev with movement is a pretty solid indicator of how that fight would go.

Posted: **25 Jun 2009, 15:36**

Yeah. sort of sorry I included Valuev in my statement....in his case it was a reference to style not substance.

Posted: **25 Jun 2009, 15:43**

After Zaire, Ali said on a television show that of all the past champs, he still believed it was Marciano who would have given him his toughest fight. Dunno if that was out of respect or what, but I'll count it as meaning something. Maybe Ali knew something of Marciano that not many else could see, and knew he'd be a bad match up for him style wise. Iono.

Boxers- Holmes, Tunney, Norton

Swarmers- Dempsey, Frazier, Marciano

Call me crazy but I think Max Schmeling would have been a hard fight for Ali too.

Posted: **25 Jun 2009, 16:03**

BoxBuzz wrote:Yeah. sort of sorry I included Valuev in my statement....in his case it was a reference to style not substance.

Lewis is the one that poses the most thought for me. But i can't get past the vision of Ali drilling him with right hand leads. Muhammad was a bit too dynamic for guys to beat him with a safety first style. A jab would just never be enough.

Posted: **25 Jun 2009, 16:18**

HomicideHenry wrote:After Zaire, Ali said on a television show that of all the past champs, he still believed it was Marciano who would have given him his toughest fight. Dunno if that was out of respect or what, but I'll count it as meaning something. Maybe Ali knew something of Marciano that not many else could see, and knew he'd be a bad match up for him style wise. Iono.

Boxers- Holmes, Tunney, Norton

Swarmers- Dempsey, Frazier, Marciano

Call me crazy but I think Max Schmeling would have been a hard fight for Ali too.

Well, he did spar alot of rounds with Rocky when filming the computer fight.

Posted: **25 Jun 2009, 16:23**

Maybe he was just being politically correct. I think he would slice marciano up like a butcher.

Posted: **25 Jun 2009, 16:29**

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Maybe he was just being politically correct. I think he would slice marciano up like a butcher.

Maybe he would. But when has Muhammad Ali EVER been "politically correct??"

Posted: **25 Jun 2009, 16:34**

raylawpc wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Maybe he was just being politically correct. I think he would slice marciano up like a butcher.
Maybe he would. But when has Muhammad Ali EVER been "politically correct??"

A lot more often than people admit. He said what he wanted, but he wasn't stupid. Shitting on Rock would do him no good. I can't recall him slamming any former fighters.

Posted: **25 Jun 2009, 16:38**

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
raylawpc wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Maybe he was just being politically correct. I think he would slice marciano up like a butcher.
Maybe he would. But when has Muhammad Ali EVER been "politically correct??"

A lot more often than people admit. He said what he wanted, but he wasn't stupid. Shitting on Rock would do him no good. I can't recall him slamming any former fighters.

Can you give an example? He's mellowed with age, its true, but he used to really go after Joe Louis when he was a young man.

Posted: **25 Jun 2009, 17:02**

prime mike tsyon

leniox lewis

roy jones jr ( he lost to spinks who is around jones weight ) !

evander the read deal

riddick bowe !

Posted: **25 Jun 2009, 17:20**

[

Maybe he would. But when has Muhammad Ali EVER been "politically correct??"

[/quote]

A lot more often than people admit. He said what he wanted, but he wasn't stupid. Shitting on Rock would do him no good. I can't recall him slamming any former fighters.[/quote]

Can you give an example? He's mellowed with age, its true, but he used to really go after Joe Louis when he was a young man.[/quote]

I can't give an example, I don't remember him slamming any older fighters, including Louis. Not saying it didn't happen, I started seriously watching in 76.

Posted: **25 Jun 2009, 17:21**

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
raylawpc wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Maybe he was just being politically correct. I think he would slice marciano up like a butcher.
Maybe he would. But when has Muhammad Ali EVER been "politically correct??"

A lot more often than people admit. He said what he wanted, but he wasn't stupid. Shitting on Rock would do him no good. I can't recall him slamming any former fighters.

He talked alot of shit about Jack Dempsey and Joe Louis! Never about Rocky Marciano though!

Posted: **25 Jun 2009, 17:29**

HomicideHenry wrote: He talked alot of poop about Jack Dempsey and Joe Louis! Never about Rocky Marciano though!

Can you give us some quotes, Rufus?

Posted: **25 Jun 2009, 17:38**

Here's a link on youtube with Ali on Jack Dempsey:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPiLGbDrGnw

Here's a link on youtube with Ali on Joe Louis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy3SG91KvXg

Here's a grainy video of Marciano on ESPN Classic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktU3NvTe3PI

Posted: **25 Jun 2009, 17:47**

HomicideHenry wrote:Here's a link on youtube with Ali on Jack Dempsey:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPiLGbDrGnw

Here's a link on youtube with Ali on Joe Louis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy3SG91KvXg

Here's a grainy video of Marciano on ESPN Classic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktU3NvTe3PI

OK, will look at them tonight. Can I expect to see Ali badmouthing Dempsey & Louis on these vids?

Posted: **25 Jun 2009, 17:51**

The Joe Louis vid I gave example of is D'Amato and Ali talking about Joe Louis, the Jack Dempsey video is Cosell and Ali talking about Dempsey. Ali calls the Willard/Dempsey fight a joke, that Willard was just a tall freak, that Dempsey had no rythem---says that Louis is too slow, fought a bunch of bums, etc

Posted: **25 Jun 2009, 18:41**

raylawpc wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:Would the "Big Guy jabbin'" routine work with Ali? EG: Valuev or the K bros? Did he ever face that? Or do you think his speed would nullify that approach? My guess is that he would simply figure out how to deal with it mid stream if he needed to. The one thing he seemed to typically have was more than one plan, or even be able to whittle a new plan when needed. He was nothing if not creative when the moment required. Combine resourcefulness with a granite chin, great hand and footspeed, decent jab and the ability to deliver good combintations, and you have the reason why we always keep comin' back to this guy (or Joe Lous and his combination of abilities) as the benchmarks for the sport.
Buzz, from his pre-exile fights, Terrell and Duke Sabedong were both 6'6", if memory serves. And Alejandro Lavorante and Charley Powell were in the 6'4" range, as I recall.

Yes they were and neither of those men were at the level that the Klits bro's
nor even Valuev. I have never found Terrel to have been effective as a 'big'
guy.
Buster Mathis you could argue was one of the more talented bigger guys that
Ali faced. Though he lacked big man power.

Posted: **25 Jun 2009, 18:47**

I have seen clips of Ali making quirks about Patterson and
Louis, but he always seemed to do it with tongue in cheek.
He did state I recall that his opponents were better than
Louis.

Ali seemed to have a lot of respect in the quotes I have seen
of him for other fighters, even if he felt he could have beaten
them peak for peak.

Posted: **25 Jun 2009, 20:20**

Robinson wrote:
raylawpc wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:Would the "Big Guy jabbin'" routine work with Ali? EG: Valuev or the K bros? Did he ever face that? Or do you think his speed would nullify that approach? My guess is that he would simply figure out how to deal with it mid stream if he needed to. The one thing he seemed to typically have was more than one plan, or even be able to whittle a new plan when needed. He was nothing if not creative when the moment required. Combine resourcefulness with a granite chin, great hand and footspeed, decent jab and the ability to deliver good combintations, and you have the reason why we always keep comin' back to this guy (or Joe Lous and his combination of abilities) as the benchmarks for the sport.
Buzz, from his pre-exile fights, Terrell and Duke Sabedong were both 6'6", if memory serves. And Alejandro Lavorante and Charley Powell were in the 6'4" range, as I recall.
Yes they were and neither of those men were at the level that the Klits bro's
nor even Valuev. I have never found Terrel to have been effective as a 'big'
guy.
Buster Mathis you could argue was one of the more talented bigger guys that
Ali faced. Though he lacked big man power.

Then you would be wrong. Terrell had a very quick jab, and good footwork for a big man. Terrell would have outpointed both Ks. Maybe stopped them late when they ran out of gas.

Posted: **25 Jun 2009, 20:24**

The few fights I have of Terrel, it does not lead me to this conclusion.
So I must respectfully disagree.

Terrel always seemed to look ungainly for his height, 6'6 and 200lbs
is some what lean. And never really seemed to use his height as well
as he could have.

Posted: **25 Jun 2009, 20:28**

Robinson wrote:The few fights I have of Terrel, it does not lead me to this conclusion.
So I must respectfully disagree.

Terrel always seemed to look ungainly for his height, 6'6 and 200lbs
is some what lean. And never really seemed to use his height as well
as he could have.

What fights do you have?

P.S. - His name is "Terrell," not "Terrel"

Posted: **25 Jun 2009, 20:33**

Ali
Foster
exhibition vs Liston
Jones
Williams

I do like Terell. I just do not think he is that great
a fighter.

Posted: **25 Jun 2009, 20:38**

Robinson wrote:Ali
Foster
exhibition vs Liston
Jones
Williams

I do like Terell. I just do not think he is that great
a fighter.

I didn't say he was great. I said Terrell was a good fighter who is better than either K.

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