BoxRec

joonie73 wrote:By the way, Gensu, I am curious:

Since you have seen Chitalada v. Chang II, who did you think won the fight?

I am actually doing a survey on that fight & as the result was very controversial in Korea.

gensu3k1 wrote:

joonie73 wrote:By the way, Gensu, I am curious:

Since you have seen Chitalada v. Chang II, who did you think won the fight?

I am actually doing a survey on that fight & as the result was very controversial in Korea.

To be perfectly honest, I found it so boring that I didn't get through the whole thing. I'll give it another chance this weekend and get back to you with my score.

Broncano wrote:

TonyJ wrote:whats your take on Watanabe?

He was a smart and versatile southpaw, great skills and didn't lack a punch. Also a very fast counterpuncher, for every punch Ibañez landed he connected 3 or 4 shots, on combinations with a nice double left hook to the body and head.

Thats the only Watanabe fight Ive seen and he just outclassed the challenger. He was only caught once by Ibañez's right hand, the only thing the Peruvian had going for him, and he took it flat on his feet so that showed his chin wasn't doubtful. He was never kayoed in his career but I don't know if he ever tasted the canvas. I wouldn't be surprised if he never did.

It is my understanding that he started boxing late in his life (something like 25 years old), and that prior to that, like many asian fighters, he had been involved in martial arts.

Other good Japanese fighters not mentioned so far would be:

Koichi Wajima
Kuniaki Shibata
Yoko Gushiken
Hiroshi Kobayashi

Gonads wrote:

Jeffsboxing wrote:Just flashing in my brain, another names of Asian fighters:

Mon sun kil
Shinji Matmumura
Saensak Muangsurin

Don't know much about the first 2 but Muangsurin won the WBC lightwelter title in his 3rd pro fight. Still a record today? Must have been a decent fighter. Still, Hearns KO'd him easily

Chong Pal Park (supermiddle titlist) and In Chul Baek anyone?

TonyJ wrote:As great as Elorde was many experts still consider Villa the greatest fillipino and asian fighter of all time.

terap wrote:"I think virtually everyone in the know consider Harada greater than
Villa."

All very interesting stuff here, guys.

HARADA's achievement with Jofre was remarkable.

But Harada was also KO'd TWICE by Joe Medel.

VILLA was never KO'd in 103 bouts.

Villa had 103 total bouts and lost 4 by decision, one on a foul, and had 4 draws.

In addition to his KO over Jimmy Wilde, Villa won a 12 round decision over Bud Taylor, a great fighter who was also bigger than Villa.

And Villa's career was cut short by his death from blood poisoning from an infected tooth.

I can let each of these guys exist on their own merits.

The compulsion to demand enforced, unnatural comparisons is something I can do without.

And how much do these so vaguely described "everyone in the know " know about Villa---or any earlier fighters?

terap wrote:My 1981 Ring Record book has Harada losing by KO twice to Joe Medel by KO 6
but in looking at it again I see both dates are Sept. 26, 1963.
So the Ring Record book put out by Bert Sugar and company after Nat Fleischer died can be less than correct.

But the overall point here is that you guys have such an overall knowledge and interest in this area of boxing.

For me, without access to the great majority of these fights, what is posted here is overwhelming since there so many names I am not familiar with---a whole area of boxing that only some are aware of.

Your posts have resulted in giving me the intention to become more familiar with this area gradually in the future.

One thing I could suggest is---for you to make a SHORTER graded list in order of importance in your opinion of the fighters and fights that are absolutely MOST significant from this area (realizing many of us do not have the resources to get everything)

IN YOUR OPINION:

1---What is the single most significant fight to see representing the absolute highest level of all these fights and fighters?

2---In a graded order, just a few more such fights that would be indispensable to begin to gain a knowledge of this area?

3---Which fighters, in your opinion, are absolutely indispensable to see (and which specific fights of theirs) in order to BEGIN to get a knowledge of this area?

terap wrote:There are films of Pancho Villa fighting Jimmy Wilde (Villa looks overwhelmingly strong and effective--making me wonder if he would have been too powerful for Wilde at any time)

and also film of Villa KOing Johnny Buff.

Both films of Villa are easily available.

terap wrote:Thanks for the list.

I will save it.

I have seen the first Harada-Jofre fight--where Harada hurts Jofre terribly withan uppercut at one point.
That is absolutely amazing that Harada was able to beat a great fighter like Jofre when Jofre was also a weight class bigger than he was. And weight means a huge amount at those lower weight levels. Ask Jimmy Wilde.

Flash Elorde was a terrific fighter. The fact that he extended Sandy Saddler as he did, WINNING A DECISION over Saddler and then extending Saddler to 13 rounds in their title fight (which was only stopped in a late round because of a cut) shows his level.

Elorde was really one weight class smaller than Ortiz.

Their second fight took place when Elorde was older.
The last punch in that fight should never have been allowed.
The referee was Ruby Goldstein, who was poison in letting fighters get hurt by letting fights he refereed go one or more punches too long.
Goldstein stood by while Benny Kid Paret was hit with over 20 punches while he was already unconscious and with his head and upper body between the 2nd and 3rd rope.
Goldstein never refereed another fight.

The last punch in the Joe Louis-Marciano fight (refereed by Goldstein) should never have taken place. Goldstein was standing right there--Louis was unconscious, with his behind resting on the 2nd rope holding him up as his head hung forward and his arms were dropped to his sides.
Marciano had a full 2 or more seconds to load up with his final right hand which knocked a totally helpless Louis through the ropes and out of the ring.
Goldstein was standing right there and did nothing.

The end of the Elorde-Ortiz second fight was very similar.
Elorde was in a similar postion on the ropes and had nothing left. Goldstein should never have allowed the final punch from Ortiz.
Ortiz was a top level champion, but I remember my disgust at the ref's non action at the end of that fight, and also at Ortiz' self-serving comments after the fight.

terap wrote:"Yeah, Goldstein had an issue with stopping fights in a prompt manner. And coming from me (who thinks fights are always stopped too soon), that says a lot. "

Yes sir.

And then Goldstein did the opposite in the 2nd Robinson-Turpin fight, stopping the fight in favor of the US fighter (Robinson) with only seconds left in the round and taking Turpin's title away from him while Robinson had a severe cut.
Goldstein would never have stopped the fight at such a point and taken away Robinson's title if the situation had been reversed.
Turpin was dumb to come to the US to defend his title.

Goldstein made a mess out of the Harold Johnson--Archie Moore title fight
by giving Moore a standing count (wrong in a title fight in those days) after Johnson flattened Moore with a right hand in the 10th round--stopping Johnson from getting off another punch at Moore before the round ended.
And then not making Moore go to a neutral corner when Moore knocked Johnson down in the 14th round--enabling Moore to get back at Johnson sooner.

joonie73 wrote:"Ellyas Pical, who was the IBF champ at 115 for most of Galaxy's reign, was the only reigning champ who ever had the balls to get in the ring with Galaxy. He went 14 rounds before Khaosai got him, then won the IBF title back eight months later and held it until 1990. I say anyone who could go 14 rounds with Khaosai Galaxy in 1987 must have been damn good himself."

Matsumura lasted the distance with Galaxy & should've gotten the decision.

And he sucked crapola.

joonie73 wrote:

gensu3k1 wrote:

More damagingly still, he was awarded at least half a dozen hometown gifts among his many defenses.

joonie73 wrote:A nice forum you guys have here; as someone who grew up in Asia, as well as watched probably several thousand Asian fights (including key fights of virtually every big name Asian fighter in the last 30 or so years), I think I can contribute something here.

Here's my top 10 Asian fighters ever:

1. Fighting Harada (legitimately beat Jofre twice; should have been the only fighter to ever win flyweight, bantamweight & featherweight titles had it not been for the infamous robbery against Famechon, a fight I scored 148-136)

2. Jung-Koo Chang (the best pure talent to ever come out of Asia; a boxing prodigy & genius who could have accomplished even more had he not wasted his career away with booze and women; still, he was almost untouchable in his prime, thoroughly dominating some of the greatest junior flyweights & flyweights of the last two decades in Zapata, Chitalada & Torres)

3. Pancho Villa (beat Wilde, the greatest flyweight ever; but the rest of his record is spotty)

4. Masao Ohba (often compared to Sanchez because of his untimely death at 23; some in Japan think he would have been better than Harada had he lieved)

5. Gabriel Elorde (beat Saddler & stretched Carlos Ortiz to the max)

6. Chan-Hee Park (similar to Chang in terms of wasting away his vast talent in booze & women; still beat the still-great Canto & obliterated Guty Espadas; textbook boxing skills & phenomenal speed)

7. Sung-Kil Moon (maybe the biggest puncher to ever come out of Asia, knocknamed "hands of stone"; regularly knocked out welterweights in sparring)

8. Jiro Watanabe (talented-wise perhaps the greatest junior bantamweight among the trio of Watanabe, Moon & Galaxy, but his ducking of Galaxy makes you wonder what could have been?)

9. Pone Kingpetch (vastly over-rated flyweight who benefited from facing an aging Perez & two scandalous gifts against Harada & Ebihara in the return bouts [after he was starched in the 1st bouts, in the case of v. Ebihara, literally in the 1st])

10. Kaosai Galaxy (the most over-rated Asian fighter of all-time, fought absolutely no one in the most talent-rich era of the divison & still had to struggle against the garbage at times)