Journeymen

[josh fg]

a journeyman gets various amounts.from £800 for a dinner show to £2000 for a sky show.im not saying they come home with that,though

If you think they will probably lose a weeks wages after the fight and have to pay about 25% of that to their trainer and possibly even 10% to their managed it's not a lot for getting hit in the face and possibly KOed.

I think it is worth these young kids carrying journymen a little because they learn more from longer fights even if they do step it up to look for a KO in the last round.

[Vendetta]

journeymen prizefighter sounds a good idea, competitve and fair. these kids deserve abit of glory,

[Counter-puncher]

rhino i understand your point that sports should be competitive and you don't want to know the result before the contest.

something that struck me though was its not like football, where basically because of the league system the teams that play each other on a regular basis are all much of a muchness and at the same level qualitywise.

In boxing it's pretty much inevitable that some boxers are going to be in with inferior and less gifted opponents

with that simple fact in mind, aren't some fights always going to be 'non-contests' in one way or another?

i mean, if the 'journyeman' opponent goes out all guns blazing he's basically going to get sparked or battered most of the time? his alternative (what surely most of us would do in his position?) is to 'look after himself' a bit more....

Stockport County even when they play Arsenal can afford to go at them like terriers, they won't end up having to have someone else drive them home knackered and concussed or to the hospital afterwards....

umm, i think i am saying, until Boxing as a sport has some way of mandating nothing but evenly-matched bouts, then you will always get the journeyman mentality you describe, and personally i can't criticise the boxers themselves for taking the long-term view and looking after themselves

is your problem with them, or with the promoters etc who have 'set up' this 'system' that 'rewards failure'??

[oliverfennell]

Good points, but then we have/had journeymen like Silence Saheed, Radcliffe Green, Billy Smitgh, Valery Odin and others who legitimately come to win, even if in most instances they don't. I'd much, much rather watch them than Peter Buckley or Karl Taylor or Jason Nesbitt.

I can see the reasons for the "survival instinct" that you mention, but speaking purely as a fan - and therefore as the paying customer - even if the match looks a formality on paper, I'd rather that formality was fought in earnest on both sides.

[Counter-puncher]

I'd rather that formality was fought in earnest on both sides.

I'm sure you would, but of course it's not you who has to take the lumps 'in earnest' is it? ;;-)

[oliverfennell]

I'd rather that formality was fought in earnest on both sides.

I'm sure you would, but of course it's not you who has to take the lumps 'in earnest' is it? ;;-)

Perhaps, then, I should carry out my own job with the sole intention of making it to the end of the shift and not giving any more than that? Sod the paying customers who expect more.

[Counter-puncher]

Oliver does your job involve getting punched in the face and receiving other such physical damage, if you 'go the extra mile' and work harder than your average 'journeyman' colleague?

if not i would suggest that comparisons between a boxer's profession, and your own in selling more photocopiers/ computer software packages/ widgets/ whatever than the next man, are unlikely to be productive.

as a salesman of widgets will you go home hurting because you have carried your job out to the full rather than coasted along? do you put yourself in danger of concussion etc?

the specific disincentives towards a journeyman NOT trying his utmost, are different in boxing than in just about any other job i can think of offhand (i may have to reconsider if i factor in things like fireman, policeman, etc etc).

Perhaps, then, I should carry out my own job with the sole intention of making it to the end of the shift and not giving any more than that?

Perhaps you should, yes. that is a valid attitude that may be taken towards any job, in my opinion, if you can get away with it.

[Counter-puncher]

surely people all over the world, all the time, in every walk of life and job, simply carry out their job with the sole intention of getting through the shift?

what do you think Nigerian Agnes was thinking as she came to clean the offices opposite me at 4Am this morning? that she was going to clean that office better than anyone had ever done it, she was going to create new ways of cleaning, inspired with nothing more than a laudable desire to put 100% into everything she does? or maybe she was thinking eff this, 4 hours and i will be back with my kids. or whatever.

isn't the whole 'time-serving' thing, the reason that salespeople (to use that analogy again) are on bonus? because if they weren't they wouldn't have an incentive to do any more than go through the motions? christ i was on bonus and i still didnt' give a fook.

maybe journeymen should be offered (a) win bonuses (b) guarantee of impartial refereeing and (c) guaranteed future work from the promoter even if they ruin the party for Young Prospect of the Moment.

but FFS without at least most or all of the above you sure as 5hit can't expect them to bang their heads against brick walls simply because some customers want them to. human nature. why try harder than you have to unless someone makes it worth your while? notwithstanding the excellent claims of paying customers etc etc etc....

[stujones]

journeymen prizefighter sounds a good idea, competitve and fair. these kids deserve abit of glory,

I aint sure about a journeyman prizefighter, but I do like the appeal of having a few journeymen in prizefighter.... someone like Tony Booth I am sure would be up to try and win £25,000... and for 3 rounds would be competitive.

[Roars Like Me]

I agree there should be a Prizefighter for these guys - it would be nice to give them a chance to fight for a 100 grand pot and earn some good cash, they deserve it.

[MPG]

surely people all over the world, all the time, in every walk of life and job, simply carry out their job with the sole intention of getting through the shift?

what do you think Nigerian Agnes was thinking as she came to clean the offices opposite me at 4Am this morning? that she was going to clean that office better than anyone had ever done it, she was going to create new ways of cleaning, inspired with nothing more than a laudable desire to put 100% into everything she does? or maybe she was thinking eff this, 4 hours and i will be back with my kids. or whatever.

isn't the whole 'time-serving' thing, the reason that salespeople (to use that analogy again) are on bonus? because if they weren't they wouldn't have an incentive to do any more than go through the motions? christ i was on bonus and i still didnt' give a fook.

maybe journeymen should be offered (a) win bonuses (b) guarantee of impartial refereeing and (c) guaranteed future work from the promoter even if they ruin the party for Young Prospect of the Moment.

but FFS without at least most or all of the above you sure as 5hit can't expect them to bang their heads against brick walls simply because some customers want them to. human nature. why try harder than you have to unless someone makes it worth your while? notwithstanding the excellent claims of paying customers etc etc etc....

Excellent post

[jonp]

surely people all over the world, all the time, in every walk of life and job, simply carry out their job with the sole intention of getting through the shift?

what do you think Nigerian Agnes was thinking as she came to clean the offices opposite me at 4Am this morning? that she was going to clean that office better than anyone had ever done it, she was going to create new ways of cleaning, inspired with nothing more than a laudable desire to put 100% into everything she does? or maybe she was thinking eff this, 4 hours and i will be back with my kids. or whatever.

isn't the whole 'time-serving' thing, the reason that salespeople (to use that analogy again) are on bonus? because if they weren't they wouldn't have an incentive to do any more than go through the motions? christ i was on bonus and i still didnt' give a fook.

maybe journeymen should be offered (a) win bonuses (b) guarantee of impartial refereeing and (c) guaranteed future work from the promoter even if they ruin the party for Young Prospect of the Moment.

but FFS without at least most or all of the above you sure as 5hit can't expect them to bang their heads against brick walls simply because some customers want them to. human nature. why try harder than you have to unless someone makes it worth your while? notwithstanding the excellent claims of paying customers etc etc etc....

Excellent post

x2

[jayc]

surely people all over the world, all the time, in every walk of life and job, simply carry out their job with the sole intention of getting through the shift?

what do you think Nigerian Agnes was thinking as she came to clean the offices opposite me at 4Am this morning? that she was going to clean that office better than anyone had ever done it, she was going to create new ways of cleaning, inspired with nothing more than a laudable desire to put 100% into everything she does? or maybe she was thinking eff this, 4 hours and i will be back with my kids. or whatever.

isn't the whole 'time-serving' thing, the reason that salespeople (to use that analogy again) are on bonus? because if they weren't they wouldn't have an incentive to do any more than go through the motions? christ i was on bonus and i still didnt' give a fook.

maybe journeymen should be offered (a) win bonuses (b) guarantee of impartial refereeing and (c) guaranteed future work from the promoter even if they ruin the party for Young Prospect of the Moment.

but FFS without at least most or all of the above you sure as 5hit can't expect them to bang their heads against brick walls simply because some customers want them to. human nature. why try harder than you have to unless someone makes it worth your while? notwithstanding the excellent claims of paying customers etc etc etc....

Brilliant topic and extremely interesting thread guys. I was literally just about to post a very similar post to the one above though. In all industries/jobs there are those that give it 100% and those that cruise through the day. This is human nature. I give much more respect to a fighter who cruises as he has to take his lumps regardless. And please don't underestimate the value for a young prospect of a fighter who spoils/sneaks his way through a fight. Because one day they will come up against a champion who may well do the same and they will have this to fall back on.

[danboxer1]

http://forum.boxrec.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=102212

[Deserter]

is your problem with them, or with the promoters etc who have 'set up' this 'system' that 'rewards failure'??

I think this is the crux of the problem and the blame lies firmly with the promoters in my opinion. Undercards are full of glorified sparring sessions where 99% of people can predict not only the result, but also the margin - where is the entertainment in that? The reality is that there isn't any and it's ripping off punters.

[oliverfennell]

surely people all over the world, all the time, in every walk of life and job, simply carry out their job with the sole intention of getting through the shift?

what do you think Nigerian Agnes was thinking as she came to clean the offices opposite me at 4Am this morning? that she was going to clean that office better than anyone had ever done it, she was going to create new ways of cleaning, inspired with nothing more than a laudable desire to put 100% into everything she does? or maybe she was thinking eff this, 4 hours and i will be back with my kids. or whatever.

isn't the whole 'time-serving' thing, the reason that salespeople (to use that analogy again) are on bonus? because if they weren't they wouldn't have an incentive to do any more than go through the motions? christ i was on bonus and i still didnt' give a fook.

maybe journeymen should be offered (a) win bonuses (b) guarantee of impartial refereeing and (c) guaranteed future work from the promoter even if they ruin the party for Young Prospect of the Moment.

but FFS without at least most or all of the above you sure as 5hit can't expect them to bang their heads against brick walls simply because some customers want them to. human nature. why try harder than you have to unless someone makes it worth your while? notwithstanding the excellent claims of paying customers etc etc etc....

Brilliant topic and extremely interesting thread guys. I was literally just about to post a very similar post to the one above though. In all industries/jobs there are those that give it 100% and those that cruise through the day. This is human nature. I give much more respect to a fighter who cruises as he has to take his lumps regardless. And please don't underestimate the value for a young prospect of a fighter who spoils/sneaks his way through a fight. Because one day they will come up against a champion who may well do the same and they will have this to fall back on.

All good points and I take on board the argument. Of course there are people in all jobs who just do enough to get through the day, and that's fair enough. Of course I've been guilty of it myself at times. But when your work falls below expectations, then it's a problem. As a paying customer, my expectation is that I should be watching a fight, a contest, not a one-way pursuit/survival exhibition where the only suspense lies in whether the final score will be 40-36 or an excitingly rare 40-35.

No, Agnes the cleaner does not turn up to work 100% of the time with the intention of cleaning to the very best of her ability, but if she doesn't clean enough, then she risks losing her job.

So, while I wouldn't expect Buckley or Taylor to approach "yet another 4x3 at a day or two's notice" with the same zeal as a prospect or contender approaches their fights, is it too much to ask that a fight does not come with an outcome that's about as pre-ordained as it can be without being scripted?