BoxRec

The discussion hasn't been about Ali vs. Tyson, and for fear of extending this disgraceful thread I won't touch that, other than to say that the guy who couldn't KO Smith and Tucker and who needed several rounds to get to guys like Thomas and Biggs isn't going to be blowing Ali out, who fought better fighters and bigger punchers than Tyson.

IFF

Would you be able to name all of the bigger punches and better fighters
that Ali fought, than a prime Tyson.

Thank You

I Feel Fine wrote:The discussion hasn't been about Ali vs. Tyson, and for fear of extending this disgraceful thread I won't touch that, other than to say that the guy who couldn't KO Smith and Tucker and who needed several rounds to get to guys like Thomas and Biggs isn't going to be blowing Ali out, who fought better fighters and bigger punchers than Tyson.

Who was bigger puncher than Tyson who fought Ali? Sonny Banks, Henry Cooper...Chuck Wepner?

I Feel Fine wrote:Use all the attempts at distraction you like, the lies and contradictions in your posts are all there for anyone to see. All your posts are garbage.

- HO-HO, I've signed you up for the eldercare program of "Share a Lunker" whereby big whoppers are trolled for and then released endlessly to prepare them for easy catches by the elderly to build their self esteem and stamina.

Since you return to be landed with the same bait, garbage, here is the final installment comparing Mr. Larry's first 10 title matches against Tyson. Not as relevant since Larry long a grown man and ABC champ only, but illuminating and fun nonetheless:

Tyson age 20-23 vs Holmes age 28-31 first 10 title comp head to head :
Carl Williams 218 22-2-0 W TKO 1
~ time: 1:33 | referee: Randy Neumann | judge: Richard F. Murry | judge: Chuck Giampa | judge: Rocky Castellani ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
~ WBA World heavyweight title ~
~ IBF heavyweight title ~ vs Trevor Berbick 215½ 18-1-1 W UD 15
~ referee: Mills Lane | judge: Joe Swessel 150-135 | judge: Chuck Minker 146-139 | judge: Lou Tabat 146-140 ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~

- Williams still tall and stylish with a crackerjack jab to Berbick less experienced in big fights but awkward and edge

in chin. Pickem when having to choose the money option, but I'd favor Williams slightly.

9. Frank Bruno 228 32-2-0 W TKO 5
~ time: 2:55 | referee: Richard Steele | judge: Jerry Roth 40-35 | judge: Omar Mintun 40-34 | judge: Rodolfo Maldonado 40-34 ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
~ WBA World heavyweight title ~
~ IBF heavyweight title ~
Bruno penalized one point in the 1st for holding and he was also dropped in the 1st. vs Muhammad Ali 217½ 56-3-0
W RTD 10 ~ time: 3:00 | referee: Richard Greene | judge: Chuck Minker 100-90 | judge: Duane Ford 100-89 | judge: Richard Steele 100-90 ~~ WBC heavyweight title ~

- Shutout/KO by Bruno who a solid boxer with power. Shot is shot and Ali shot as shot can be and still be alive.

8. Michael Spinks 212¼ 31-0-0 W KO 1
~ time: 1:31 | referee: Frank Cappuccino | judge: Eva Shain | judge: John Stewart | judge: Rocky Castellani ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
~ WBA World heavyweight title ~
~ IBF heavyweight title ~ vs Scott LeDoux 226 26-8-4 W TKO 7
~ time: 2:05 | referee: Davey Pearl 60-53 | judge: Harold Lederman 60-53 | judge: Richard Steele 60-53 ~
~ WBC heavyweight title

- Hmmmm, near prime boxer/puncher Spinks against "prime" Ledoux. Spinks KO 1-4.

7. Tony Tubbs 238¼ 24-1-0 W TKO 2
~ time: 2:54 | referee: Arthur Mercante | judge: Larry Rozadilla 9-10 | judge: Ken Morita 10-10 | judge: Masakazu Uchida 10-9 ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
~ WBA World heavyweight title ~
~ IBF heavyweight title ~ vs Leroy Jones 254½ 24-0-1 W TKO 8
~ time: 2:56 | referee: Richard Greene | judge: Chuck Minker 70-62 | judge: Art Lurie 70-64 | judge: Duane Ford 70-63 ~~ WBC heavyweight title ~

- Tubbs a bit porky, but big, strong, prime and a very fast handed boxer. Leroy porkier, but same deal, yet outgunned/outclassed, LTKO mid rounds.

6. Larry Holmes 225¾ 48-2-0 W TKO 4
~ time: 2:55 | referee: Joe Cortez | judge: Charley Spina 29-28 | judge: Nicasio L. Drake 30-27 | judge: Rudy Ortega 29-28 ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
~ WBA World heavyweight title ~
~ IBF heavyweight title ~ vs Lorenzo Zanon 215 25-4-2 W KO 6
~ time: 2:39 | referee: Ray Solis | judge: Chuck Minker 49-44 | judge: Art Lurie 49-45 | judge: Harold Buck 48-46 ~ WBC heavyweight title ~

- Holy Holmes, Grandpa Larry gets Zanon again! Figure Grandpa Larry couldn't dent a mosquito, so Zanon goes the distance this time in the funniest bout of the bunch as Larry grows frustrated and tired late remembering how much easier it was the first time!

5. Tyrell Biggs 228¾ 15-0-0 W TKO 7
~ time: 2:59 | referee: Tony Orlando | judge: Al Wilensky 60-54 | judge: John Stewart 60-54 | judge: Frank Brunette 60-52 ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
~ WBA World heavyweight title ~
~ IBF heavyweight title ~ vs Earnie Shavers 211 59-7-1 W TKO 11
~ time: 2:00 | referee: Davey Pearl | judge: Al Miller 98-91 | judge: Lou Tabat 98-89 | judge: Harold Buck 98-90
~ WBC heavyweight title ~

- Biggs a bigger stronger Olympic superheavy gold medalist Ali clone. Shavers no quick footed fast handed Tyson. It took a careless Larry a heart attack and 11 rds to dispose of Shavers. Biggs not as careless as Larry wins a decision over a tiring Shavers, unless Shavers catches him. Hard to predict who wins other than they way they win or lose.

4.Tony Tucker 221 35-0-0 W UD 12
~ referee: Mills Lane | judge: Julio Roldan 118-113 | judge: Phil Newman 119-111 | judge: Bill Graham 117-112 ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
~ WBA World heavyweight title ~
~ IBF heavyweight title ~ vs Mike Weaver 202 19-8-0 W TKO 12~ time: 0:44 | referee: Harold Valan

107-101 | judge: Tony Castellano 106-102 | judge: Harold Lederman 106-103 ~~ WBC heavyweight title ~
Weaver was down once in the 11th round.

- Tucker could oubox and KO Weaver much earlier than the still developing Holmes. No contest.

3. Pinklon Thomas 217¾ 29-1-1 W TKO 6
~ time: 2:00 | referee: Carlos Padilla | judge: Dalby Shirley 49-46 | judge: Gordon Volkman 50-44 | judge: Harry Gibbs 49-46 ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
~ WBA World heavyweight title ~ vs Ossie Ocasio 207 13-0-0 W TKO 7~ time: 2:38 | referee: Carlos Padilla | judge: Art Lurie ~~ WBC heavyweight title ~

- Thomas walks down and over baby Ocasio. Not more than a big yawn for Pink

2. James Smith 233 19-5-0 W UD 12 vs
~ referee: Mills Lane | judge: Lou Tabat 120-106 | judge: Dalby Shirley 119-107 | judge: Jose Juan Guerra 119-107 ~
~ WBC heavyweight title ~
~ WBA World heavyweight title ~ vs Alfredo Evangelista 208¼ 23-2-1 W KO 7~ time: 2:14 | referee:

Richard Greene ~~ WBC heavyweight title ~

- Bonecrush puts the crunch on Alfredo is how the headline reads, a walkover.

Trever Berbick vs Ken Norton

- Berb the lessor fighter but prime. Figure he has a puncher's chance against a battle worn but still game Norton, Kenny being the favorite of course. Probably a UD for Kenny but cannot rule out Berbick coming on strong the latter rounds to eke it out over a fading Kenny. People conveniently forget that Trever held wins over 3 prime undefeated heavies in Greg Page, Mitch Green, and Pinklon Thomas going into Tyson. Norton not the threat a prime Tyson was could well drop this bout against surging youth.

BRR

I think Shavers-Biggs is a lot closer than that, and Shavers has a good
shot at stopping Biggs. I am thinking something along the lines of the Bey-Biggs
fight.

I think that version of Mike Weaver has a good shot against Tucker, BUT...I can
see TNT out boxing Mike, though it being close. I can see this flowing either
way.

BRR,

You should run a Louis opponents vs Tyson's ones also.

pringle wrote: Who was bigger puncher than Tyson who fought Ali? Sonny Banks, Henry Cooper...Chuck Wepner?

Larry Holmes fought both Tyson and Shavers and said that Shavers was the bigger puncher. Holyfield fought an old Foreman and Tyson and said that Foreman was the bigger puncher. Take it up with them.
A lot of fighters get knocked down when they are young. Wepner was a slip. Ali took a great shot, as even Joe Frazier would admit. Sorry that you're in the dark on that.
BRR... again, putting it in chronological order may seem alright but it is not really a sufficient way to judge who had the better list. Your attempt at analyzing these Holmes-Tyson opponent's head to head is sad. Your comments about Tyrell Biggs are particularly amusing. I have been quite critical of Holmes, but he had a better title reign than Tyson did as well. Going twice as long helps.

Tyson had better speed and combinations, that combined
with his power gave him something a little different to the
awesome ferocity and strength of Foreman. And the instant
explosiveness of Shavers.

Of course Shavers was not as dangerous as Tyson, but that wasn't the question, the question was "what harder hitters did he face?" It should also be mentioned that Ali's speed and reflexes were almost totally gone when he fought Shavers, he was hit a lot more than he would have been by Shavers when he was younger.
I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to dispute, are you suggesting that Ali did not show the type of chin to handle Tyson's power? Ali's chin on a bad day was at least as good as Holyfield's.
Foreman and Liston were better fighters than Tyson, more highly rated, and I would take those wins over a win over Tyson.

I will say Tyson had the ability to nail Ali hard on the chin, & then follow-up with astonishing speed. Nobody who boasts one-punch knockout power on the order of Tyson has the right to have such blazing handspeed, but he did.

Even so, I don't think he gets Ali out of there. One guys getting stopped, most likely --- I'm betting all the way to the bank it's Tyson, if we're talking about the Ali of, say, 65-67.

Tyson couldn't land more than a couple of punches in a row on Smith or Holyfield, who would grab him every time. Ali will do that and land four punch combinations on him.
Said it before, will say it again, Liston and Foreman were better fighters than Tyson.

I Feel Fine wrote:

pringle wrote: Who was bigger puncher than Tyson who fought Ali? Sonny Banks, Henry Cooper...Chuck Wepner?

Larry Holmes fought both Tyson and Shavers and said that Shavers was the bigger puncher. Holyfield fought an old Foreman and Tyson and said that Foreman was the bigger puncher. Take it up with them.
A lot of fighters get knocked down when they are young. Wepner was a slip. Ali took a great shot, as even Joe Frazier would admit. Sorry that you're in the dark on that.
BRR... again, putting it in chronological order may seem alright but it is not really a sufficient way to judge who had the better list. Your attempt at analyzing these Holmes-Tyson opponent's head to head is sad. Your comments about Tyrell Biggs are particularly amusing. I have been quite critical of Holmes, but he had a better title reign than Tyson did as well. Going twice as long helps.

My comments about Tyrell Biggs? I never mentioned Biggs, not one single time. Time to increase your med dosage there Norman Bates.

If you read my post, I said Ali would beat Tyson and now you are "arguing" with me that Ali would beat Tyson? Isn't the the point I made? ....... WTF! I don't mind you arguing my point for me, but arguing my point TO me is a bit creepy.

Pringle... I was talking to BRR about his comments about Biggs. You might have noticed that, as I started that paragraph off by saying "BRR..."
Idiot.
I wasn't talking about your pick, I was talking about your first sentence about Tyson having the potential of knocking Ali out. You're underrating Ali's chin.

I Feel Fine wrote:Tyson couldn't land more than a couple of punches in a row on Smith or Holyfield, who would grab him every time. Ali will do that and land four punch combinations on him.
Said it before, will say it again, Liston and Foreman were better fighters than Tyson.

Perhaps so (although I would take a peak Tyson over the fading Liston a slightly pre-prime Ali beat, but I'd reverse that if it were the Liston of 58-60), but what Tyson had which neither Liston nor Foreman did was superior speed, precision, & accuracy. He had similar power to those men, but was much better in the above departments. Okay, he didn't do well against Smith's holding, or Holyfield's. Ali didn't always look spectacular, either --- even at his peak.

That said, I don't give him much shot. Cliche though it may be, I really do believe Tyson would've imploded at Ali's mind games, & the physical battle is one where he's up against it, as well. No heavy-handed puncher with Tyson's quickness hit the Ali of the late-60's, though --- might have been interesting, is all I'm stating.

I Feel Fine wrote:Pringle... I was talking to BRR about his comments about Biggs. You might have noticed that, as I started that paragraph off by saying "BRR..."
Idiot.
I wasn't talking about your pick, I was talking about your first sentence about Tyson having the potential of knocking Ali out. You're underrating Ali's chin.

I thought you were cold.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

I Feel Fine wrote:Tyson couldn't land more than a couple of punches in a row on Smith or Holyfield, who would grab him every time. Ali will do that and land four punch combinations on him.
Said it before, will say it again, Liston and Foreman were better fighters than Tyson.

Perhaps so (although I would take a peak Tyson over the fading Liston a slightly pre-prime Ali beat, but I'd reverse that if it were the Liston of 58-60), but what Tyson had which neither Liston nor Foreman did was superior speed, precision, & accuracy. He had similar power to those men, but was much better in the above departments. Okay, he didn't do well against Smith's holding, or Holyfield's. Ali didn't always look spectacular, either --- even at his peak.

That said, I don't give him much shot. Cliche though it may be, I really do believe Tyson would've imploded at Ali's mind games, & the physical battle is one where he's up against it, as well. No heavy-handed puncher with Tyson's quickness hit the Ali of the late-60's, though --- might have been interesting, is all I'm stating.

Tyson was damaged goods by the time he fought Holyfield. Douglas fucked him up, not the same again.

Yes, he was. With all the criticism Ali gets in post-peak fights, though, I say tough sh!t --- let Tyson endure it for a bit.

Re-watching Tyson-Biggs, I have to exclaim again.

Mike Tyson . . .excellent fighter . . . but the most over-rated boxer of all time.

GI... I understand and agree with your post. I of course recognize Tyson's speed... but Liston and Foreman were still better fighters. I know Liston was a little past it, but he was still by far the best Heavyweight in the world at the time.
I think once Ali won his title he was pretty serious from then on. Fighters often become much more dedicated when they win their first belts.
And I don't think I need to tell anyone here that Ali could clinch with the best of them; usually people are only too willing to point this out as a way of criticizing Ali. Foreman is one of the strongest champions ever, I think we will all agree, and Ali had no problems grabbing and wrestling him. Ken Norton noted this about Ali, that people underrate his physical strength because of the fact that he couldn't punch hard.

Pringle... *yawn* Holyfield would have beaten Tyson in his prime. Holyfield was more man than Tyson, and Tyson couldn't handle his strength and inside defense. Holyfield was hardly a spring chicken when he fought Tyson in the 90s. And don't blame me for your misreadings, pay closer attention next time.

Dempseyfire... x2... and Biggs fought a dumb fight, might have had a chance had he continued doing what he did in the first round. Still probably would have lost, but it would have been more competitive had he not abandoned his gameplan.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Yes, he was. With all the criticism Ali gets in post-peak fights, though, I say tough sh!t --- let Tyson endure it for a bit.

Sure, why not.

I Feel Fine wrote: Pringle... *yawn* Holyfield would have beaten Tyson in his prime. Holyfield was more man than Tyson, and Tyson couldn't handle his strength and inside defense. Holyfield was hardly a spring chicken when he fought Tyson in the 90s. And don't blame me for your misreadings, pay closer attention next time.

Oh yes or great boxing oracle, I will pay closer attention next time....The next time I want to learn how to not have a life. You were speaking to me right ? or were you speaking to yawn.

"or were you speaking to yawn."
First BRR was blaming his reading problems on me, now you are... unfortunate.
And I don't think I need to give you lessons on how not to have a life, just keep doing what you're doing... like interrupting solid threads like Hagler-Monzon with stupid pictures that have no relevance. That's a good start. Or coming into this thread having no comprehension of what the thread was about... what exactly does "title comp head to head" mean in your language?

I Feel Fine wrote: Dempseyfire... x2... and Biggs fought a dumb fight, might have had a chance had he continued doing what he did in the first round. Still probably would have lost, but it would have been more competitive had he not abandoned his gameplan.

Hoooo boy Now Biggs would have had a chance against Tyson had he done this or that, changed his strategy or whatever. Yet Tyson wouldn't stand a chance against Ali, no matter what.
It was obvious except to only the most dense of the one-celled organisms that Tyson was carrying Biggs throughout that match. Maybe they should issue the Biggs-Tyson fight in braille so you can see it also.

I Feel Fine wrote:"or were you speaking to yawn."
First BRR was blaming his reading problems on me, now you are... unfortunate.
And I don't think I need to give you lessons on how not to have a life, just keep doing what you're doing... like interrupting solid threads like Hagler-Monzon with stupid pictures that have no relevance. That's a good start. Or coming into this thread having no comprehension of what the thread was about... what exactly does "title comp head to head" mean in your language?

I'm sorry that you're too ignorant to see the relevance of the picture I put in the Hagler-Monzon thread. Very sad.

pringle wrote:

I Feel Fine wrote: Dempseyfire... x2... and Biggs fought a dumb fight, might have had a chance had he continued doing what he did in the first round. Still probably would have lost, but it would have been more competitive had he not abandoned his gameplan.

Hoooo boy Now Biggs would have had a chance against Tyson had he done this or that, changed his strategy or whatever. Yet Tyson wouldn't stand a chance against Ali, no matter what.
It was obvious except to only the most dense of the one-celled organisms that Tyson was carrying Biggs throughout that match. Maybe they should issue the Biggs-Tyson fight in braille so you can see it also.

He abandoned his strategy after winning the first round. Had a chance? Sure. Had a good chance? No. A few of Tyson's title challengers would have had a better chance at beating him had they fought smarter. He was fighting idiots. I can sympathize with him on what that's like.