BoxRec

Posted: **20 Sep 2009, 17:08**

bengulnaci1 wrote:Well ok, ducked is the wrong word but:

@ Superfeather we had Frietas, for example
@ Lightweight we had Paul Spadafora, Artur Grigorian.
@ Superlightweight (or lightwelter) - Kostya Tszyu, Miguel Cotto
@ Welterweight Antonio Margarito, Cotto (again), Mosley, Williams

And trying to be honest here, the only ones who would have genuinely had a chance of winning would have been (in my view) Tszyu, Cotto, Margarito, Mosley and Williams.

All these fighters were regaded as one of the top in their respective divisions.

As you say, it is obvious he would have beaten all of those at super feather and lightweight.

Above that, I believe a convincing argument can be made that he would beat, or will beat, all of them. Including Moseley and Cotto. I think everyone is getting a bit carried away with Sugar Shane's Indian Summer.

On another point, aren't the arguments that Mayweather would lose to certain fighters because they are bigger, completely irrelevant? We are talking about pound for pound here....

Posted: **20 Sep 2009, 17:09**

Maelstrom wrote:
bengulnaci1 wrote:Well ok, ducked is the wrong word but:

@ Superfeather we had Frietas, for example
@ Lightweight we had Paul Spadafora, Artur Grigorian.
@ Superlightweight (or lightwelter) - Kostya Tszyu, Miguel Cotto
@ Welterweight Antonio Margarito, Cotto (again), Mosley, Williams

And trying to be honest here, the only ones who would have genuinely had a chance of winning would have been (in my view) Tszyu, Cotto, Margarito, Mosley and Williams.

All these fighters were regaded as one of the top in their respective divisions.
I think it is fairly obvious that he wouldn't have beaten all of those at super feather and lightweight.

Above that, I believe a convincing argument can be made that he would beat, or will beat, all of them. Including Moseley and Cotto. I think everyone is getting a bit carried away with Sugar Shane's Indian Summer.

On another point, aren't the arguments that Mayweather would lose to certain fighters because they are bigger, completely irrelevant? We are talking about pound for pound here....

Ok, pound for pound i think SRR hits harder, is just as quick and is more technically gifted.

Posted: **20 Sep 2009, 17:36**

jayc wrote:Floyd is a great boxer (i nearly typed fighter but changed my mind). Is he the best pound for pound fighter in the game today? At the moment yes, although I think Shane Mosley will give him a good argument and I agree that a younger version of Mosley would beat Floyd. Is Floyd the best ever? No. He isn't in my book. That doesn't mean I don't respect him but I think on a pound for pound basis I could probably name 20 fighters who would beat him.
1. Sugar Ray Robinson. The best welterweight and fighter (did type fighter this time) ever. Bigger than Floyd, hit much harder, just as quick and had better footwork. At welterweight I think Robinson would stop a man hurt by Corley and Judah. SRR late KO.
2. Sugar Ray Leonard. Again, bigger than Floyd and very similar level of speed and technical ability but two major factors. He hit harder and he threw hard, flashy combinations. Leonard on points after showing that Floyd can be hit regularly.
3. Tommy Hearns. Too big and hits too hard. I genuinely believe that Hearns stops the pretty boy in the first half of the fight.
4. Roberto Duran. Lets make this at lightweight, Floyds potshotting with single punches wouldn't keep a fit, lightweight Duran away. I think Floyd would be battered after 8-10 rounds.
5. Shane Mosley - lets take the Mosley who dominated fighters at lightweight. Almost as quick as Floyd but hits harder and takes a punch better. Mosley on points.
6. Pernell Whitaker - a peak Whitaker is in my eyes a better technician than Floyd. Points win.

I'll stop there and ive tried to stick around the welterweight division (sort of) as thats where Floyd is but if I made it pound for pound then Floyd wouldn't make my top 20. Guys like DLH & Trinidad at their peak would have tested him seriously. Henry Armstrong anyone? Seriously, I'll admit that Floyd Mayweather Junior is a great fighter but no, he isn't the best there ever was. If he goes on to beat fighters of the caliber of Manny, Williams, Cotto, Mosley then maybe I will elevate him up my list but I can't see him beating all four of them. Seriously, can you?

Excellent post, though I disagree that he is #1 p4p right now, I'd place Pacquiao above him.

Posted: **20 Sep 2009, 17:39**

waylon posits a valid point because floyd is so brilliant defensively and would indeed be able to compete with most of the greats from other eras. in my view though, people like hearns KO's him before the 10th, armstrong blitzes him into submission a little later and the best lightweights of all time, duran especially, would also beat him well. he is however the best of our era.

Posted: **20 Sep 2009, 18:36**

Floyds main problem is the lack of a defining fight.
If you look at the following list of all time greats they all fought other champions who also belong on the top 100 fighters of all time. Floyd has not. He has to a degree cherry picked his opponents as he has moved up and i think the reason some fans dislike him is because in recent years he has seemed reluctant to take a risk. Which is effectively what it is when you face someone from the top echelon of your division.
For example:
Ali, Frazier and Foreman all gambled against each other.
Sugar Ray Robinson gambled against La Motta, Turpin, Basilio, Fullmer and Maxim.
Hagler, Hearns, Leonard and Duran all risked it against each other.
In more modern times, fighters I respect have taken huge risks to prove they are greats:
Hopkins - Trinidad, Tarver, Pavlik, Calzaghe, RJJ, Johnson.
Calzaghe - Lacy (at the time), Kessler, Hopkins.
Mosley - ODLH, Wright, Margarito. Cotto, Forrest.
Barrera, Manny, Morales, JMM all took on the best they could in each other.

When has Floyd ever actively pursued another top fighter to cement his legacy? Why did he not fight Kostya Tzsyu? Why not fight Cotto at light welter either? Why no Mosley, Margarito or Williams so far at welter? If he wants people to recognize him as an all time great then he has to take the gamble and put himself in a competitive fight. The only real gauge we have so far is him sneaking to a points win against an old and running out of gas Oscar. Hardly a glowing performance for the pretty boy against the only other fighter he has fought who is anywhere near top class. The only two fights he has had against unbeaten 'dangermen' were Corrales and Hatton. Two of my favorite all time fighters but not even I would go as far as to say either were truly top, top class fighters. Floyd needs his defining fights. Hopefully Manny, Mosley or Cotto can provide them.

Posted: **20 Sep 2009, 18:43**

The answer is NO

Posted: **20 Sep 2009, 19:27**

Mayweather is a great fighter in the context of what this current era has to offer.
However anyone who thinks he would beat Leonard and Hearns at Welter is off their rocker IMO. I'd call Mayweather vs prime Don Curry a 50/50 at Welter let alone any of the serious 'players' like the aforementioned and the historical greats like Robinson, Armstrong etc.

Posted: **20 Sep 2009, 19:28**

For me, this question is answered by looking at who a fighter fought, the old adage being 'To be great you have to beat great'.

And if you have no real opposition (in the sense, Hagler had Hearns, Leonard and Duran - and you can mix this combo up any which way you want), you have to go out there and dominate you division, fighting the best available in and around you weight class.

I would certainly place these guys way ahead of Mayweather:

- Henry Amstrong - Just too good an all round fighter for Floyd and I would argue this point with anyone who wants to.
- Joe Louis - Best pure puncher and totally dominant.
- Muhammed Ali - Dont really need to explain him, do I?
- Ray Robinson - Does everything Floyd can do, but simply much better plus unbelievable bottle.
- Ray Leonard - Same again, does everything floyd does, but better, tremendous heart on him too.
- Thomas Hearns - Once again, better boxer, just as fast and omg can punch like nothing I've seen.
- Roberto Duran - Defensive slickness, ruthlessness and power, chin and skills to burn.
- Archie Moore - What a fighter!!
- Willie Pep - Boxing Master.

Now those are just a few (fairly) obvious choices:

Less obvious are the likes of:

- Marvin Hagler
- Carlos Monzon
- Ricardo Lopez
- Azumah Nelson
- Khaosai Galaxy
- Roy Jones Junior
- Mike McCallum
- Oscar De La Hoya and so on.

Greatness is not defined by how good you look against inferior opponents or opponents with some kind of disadvantage (and yes there were fighters and still are fighters Floyd could have/can choose to fight).

It wasnt accepted back in the days of Armstrong, Robinson et al. So why is pitty pattying around, picking and choosing opponents, remaing unbeaten at all costs now deemed enough to classed as great? Maybe I have this wrong?

Its by stepping out and taking on the best., whatever the risks.

Can anyone, hand on heart place Floyd anywhere these guys?

Posted: **20 Sep 2009, 20:20**

PBF beat ODLH despite being naturaly 2 weights lighter

Posted: **20 Sep 2009, 20:55**

Coco wrote:PBF beat ODLH despite being naturaly 2 weights lighter

- Oh my stars, some of you really do manage to expose yourselves so embarrassingly.

Oscar won his first title at superfeather as did Mr. Moneybags who got to stay in the division longer thanks to day before weighins.

Do you even watch boxing?

Posted: **20 Sep 2009, 21:45**

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:
Coco wrote:PBF beat ODLH despite being naturaly 2 weights lighter
- Oh my stars, some of you really do manage to expose yourselves so embarrassingly.

Oscar won his first title at superfeather as did Mr. Moneybags who got to stay in the division longer thanks to day before weighins.

Good call, BRR.

Henry Armstrong lost to SRR, Hearns lost Leonard, De La Hoya lost to B-Hop. Ali lost to Berbick - But in turn look who they fought.

Now look again and tell me where Mayweather stands?

PS You say Mayweather 'beat' De La Hoya, i say he got the decision over a faded, well past his prime De La Hoya, there is a difference.

Posted: **20 Sep 2009, 21:53**

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:
Coco wrote:PBF beat ODLH despite being naturaly 2 weights lighter
- Oh my stars, some of you really do manage to expose yourselves so embarrassingly. Do you even watch boxing?

Oh my stars, you've just managed to expose yourself even more embarrassingly given just about everyone on this board knows Coco is a former pro boxer. Muppet.

Posted: **20 Sep 2009, 21:55**

Mate, its not about having a go at someone for their opinion.

But trying to put things in perspective

Posted: **21 Sep 2009, 04:36**

Deserter wrote: Oh my stars, you've just managed to expose yourself even more embarrassingly given just about everyone on this board knows Coco is a former pro boxer. Muppet.

- I don't care if he's Muhammad Ali and you're his jockstrap, what he knows about Oscar's size wouldn't fill a tea cup.

You're doing an excellent job in your supporting role though, congrats............ 8)

Posted: **21 Sep 2009, 04:47**

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:
Deserter wrote: Oh my stars, you've just managed to expose yourself even more embarrassingly given just about everyone on this board knows Coco is a former pro boxer. Muppet.
- I don't care if he's Muhammad Ali and you're his jockstrap, what he knows about Oscar's size wouldn't fill a tea cup.

You're doing an excellent job in your supporting role though, congrats............ 8)

And I should also congratulate you on your infantile contributions to the forum since you started dropping in recently. To paraphrase the great Larry Holmes, based on your posts to date you aren't even fit to carry my jockstrap. But do carry on, you're providing us with some light entertainment if nothing else

Posted: **21 Sep 2009, 04:51**

bengulnaci1 wrote:
BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:
Coco wrote:PBF beat ODLH despite being naturaly 2 weights lighter
- Oh my stars, some of you really do manage to expose yourselves so embarrassingly.

Oscar won his first title at superfeather as did Mr. Moneybags who got to stay in the division longer thanks to day before weighins.
Good call, BRR.

Henry Armstrong lost to SRR, Hearns lost Leonard, De La Hoya lost to B-Hop. Ali lost to Berbick - But in turn look who they fought.

Now look again and tell me where Mayweather stands?

PS You say Mayweather 'beat' De La Hoya, i say he got the decision over a faded, well past his prime De La Hoya, there is a difference.

- Never stated MM "beat" Oscar in the above, but in the general sense of being the recorded winner in the bout, he did "beat" Oscar in one of the drearest ever performances on top of being the most lucrative fight ever. Oscar tried, but MM style insured a lack of fighting and lots of lost time on the ropes posing.

If MM retires today undefeated, probably a small movement to put him in the top 50 greatest. Keep in mind at his height he was only mentioned in passing in the Ibro lightweight rankings, failing to crack their top 20 lightweights, and he's done little since except make his fortune in the Oscar sweepstakes. Of the fighters of the 90s and the 00s, Roy and then Manny are the generational greats, but cracking a top 50 list is pretty tough for an unpopular fighter like Roy. Manny may have an easier go being popular, but of course Oscar being popular won't get him near the top 50. Ideally being great and popular puts a fighter over the top.

Posted: **21 Sep 2009, 04:53**

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:
Deserter wrote: Oh my stars, you've just managed to expose yourself even more embarrassingly given just about everyone on this board knows Coco is a former pro boxer. Muppet.
- I don't care if he's Muhammad Ali and you're his jockstrap, what he knows about Oscar's size wouldn't fill a tea cup.

You're doing an excellent job in your supporting role though, congrats............ 8)

Please go back to your cave.

Posted: **21 Sep 2009, 04:53**

No offense to anyone meant but just because someone used to be a pro fighter this does not make their opinion on this matter any more valid than someone who has never boxed but has been a lifelong fan. As an amateur fighter I think i fall in the middle but i certainly wouldnt expect my opinion to carry more weight than anyone elses. Especially when the comment made is in relation to ODLH and Mayweathers size. Naturally they are very, very similar and the only reason Oscar is a bigger weight class is because he's older. Anyone who thinks Floyds performance against an old DLH where he just about scraped a win is a good performance is poles apart from me on how the judge fighters.

Posted: **21 Sep 2009, 05:12**

jayc wrote:No offense to anyone meant but just because someone used to be a pro fighter this does not make their opinion on this matter any more valid than someone who has never boxed but has been a lifelong fan.

With the greatest of respect you've completely missed my point - Broughton has been 'trolling' on here for the past week or so, and when his response to Coco contained the ridiculous line 'Do you even watch boxing?', with the clear inference that he knows absolutely nothing about boxing, it was perfectly valid, as far as I'm concerned, to point out given Coco's a former pro, he clearly knows a hell of a lot about boxing.
At no point did I say Coco's opinion was any more valid than somebody who hasn't boxed - for what it's worth I'm in the same boat as you (boxed as an amateur) and agree with your view.

Posted: **21 Sep 2009, 06:12**

WildWaylon wrote: Who would have thought PBF could have dominated Marquez the way he did. We know he had the size and weight advantage but even so his speed and skills made him the master anyway. Is he the best at any weight, in boxings history, and if not who would you put above him.

are you joking?

marquez had no business at welterweight other than getting a lot of money. mayweather dominated a smaller man, and never even made the contracted weight, which would have perhaps made it a fairer fight. the fight has no p4p relevance because it turned out not to even be a "catchweight."

PAYweather showed fine skills but beat a 36 yo, fat, smaller man who had been in some epic (read, gruelling, punishing) fights already.

Posted: **21 Sep 2009, 07:11**

Deserter wrote:
jayc wrote:No offense to anyone meant but just because someone used to be a pro fighter this does not make their opinion on this matter any more valid than someone who has never boxed but has been a lifelong fan.
With the greatest of respect you've completely missed my point - Broughton has been 'trolling' on here for the past week or so, and when his response to Coco contained the ridiculous line 'Do you even watch boxing?', with the clear inference that he knows absolutely nothing about boxing, it was perfectly valid, as far as I'm concerned, to point out given Coco's a former pro, he clearly knows a hell of a lot about boxing.
At no point did I say Coco's opinion was any more valid than somebody who hasn't boxed - for what it's worth I'm in the same boat as you (boxed as an amateur) and agree with your view.

- A Deserter moniker talking about trolling eh. How rich.

Broughton came to this forum because every thread about Fury got merged here and this was the place to set soft lads everywhere straight regarding the McD results. As typical in internet forums, there's no shortage of lowbrowed misanthropes writing and attacking in the most vicious and foul manner possible, so as such, I generally don't pull my punches as I present a much cleaner, more factual based dialogue.

I agree that I didn't need to finish with a pop at Coco, but truth be told there are too many misanthropes for me to keep track of, so he got thrown into the mix. My apologies to Coco, but I fail to understand how anyone could miss that Oscar is the original and only 6 division champ, a clear indicator he was fighting for titles at lower weights when he was younger. No excuse for a pro boxer commenting on Oscar not to have figured this out.

No need for me to apologize to you though since I gave you glowing accolades in your supporting role.......... 8)

Posted: **21 Sep 2009, 07:24**

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:
Coco wrote:PBF beat ODLH despite being naturaly 2 weights lighter
- Oh my stars, some of you really do manage to expose yourselves so embarrassingly.

Oscar won his first title at superfeather as did Mr. Moneybags who got to stay in the division longer thanks to day before weighins.

Do you even watch boxing?

the fact that they both started at the same weight does not necessarily mean they are both the same natural size

DLH drained hugely to get to 130, Floyd had to drain a little to begind with and slightly more as he came to the end of his reign at 130lbs

the very fact that oscar's in ring weight is over 160 which floyd's has NEVER been, SHOULD be enough for you to work out that Floyd is smaller naturally.

Posted: **21 Sep 2009, 07:27**

Counter-puncher wrote:
BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:
Coco wrote:PBF beat ODLH despite being naturaly 2 weights lighter
- Oh my stars, some of you really do manage to expose yourselves so embarrassingly.

Oscar won his first title at superfeather as did Mr. Moneybags who got to stay in the division longer thanks to day before weighins.

Do you even watch boxing?
the fact that they both started at the same weight does not necessarily mean they are both the same natural size

DLH drained hugely to get to 130, Floyd had to drain a little to begind with and slightly more as he came to the end of his reign at 130lbs

the very fact that oscar's in ring weight is over 160 which floyd's has NEVER been, SHOULD be enough for you to work out that Floyd is smaller naturally.

Don't encourage him

Posted: **21 Sep 2009, 07:32**

encourage him what? to use logic, not to insert useless biased angles into discussions, etc?

Posted: **21 Sep 2009, 07:34**

Although a great boxer with excellent skill, PBF is not the #1 P4P. That crown is still on Manny's head until PBF actually does something to regain it. PBF has first got to beat the best at his own weight (welter) before he can jump onto the #1 P4P wagon. Williams for one would beat him with his super long reach. Beating a fighter who three fights ago lost at super feather to Manny and then moved to lightweight and struggled against Casamayor until finally managing to stop him in the 9th (he was level on 2 of the judges cards at time of stoppage). He then fought again at lightweight against Diaz and looked like he was going to lose on points until he got the stoppage in the 11th. Marquez was having difficulty against lightweights yet he jumps up two more weights to welter against PBF. Therefore, this latest fight doesn't change the #1 P4P status. Imagine if Calzaghe decided to come out of retirement and say he decided to fight Shane Mosley at a catchweight of 166 and then on weigh in he scaled 168. If he then went on to destroy Mosley that would not make him any better on the P4P list because Mosley had no right to be at super middle. In fact most people on this forum would be slagging Calzaghe for taking on a welterweight!

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