BoxRec

I am not as keen on the '80's as Robinson, myself. A lot of out-of-shape fighters selling themselves short on any number of fronts, be it their weight, drugs, or simple laziness.

Several of the relative few who had talent p!ssed it away, to boot. It was, on the whole, a poor era. Holmes & Tyson were runaway stand-outs. Transported through time to watch a division unfold in the flesh, I would absolutely take the roarin' '20's over its counter-part of some sixty years on.

Robinson wrote: I think the
1980s was one of the more under appreciated (though it is getting its dues
now) for HW boxing. Vitali would face some serious challenges and would
win some...lose some...

Rob, I agree 100%. While no one is going to list guys like Dokes, Tubbs, Page, Weaver, etc. as top 10 ATG, they were quite good fighters and there was pretty good depth throughout the decade. Amatuer boxing still existed then and produced a continuous group of reasonably talented fighters that kept things interesting. Unfortunately the 80's also made the chubby HW more common, but unfortunately that seems to be what most people remember about the era.

It's relative though. Page, Witherspoon and Tubbs were big men who were 'fat' in the 230s-240s.

No we have smaller guys coming into title fights at 250+!

Looking at Tubbs vs Tyson, Tony compared to most heavyweights today was slim and trim!

At the time the HW division was lampooned in all the boxing publications.

Page, Tubbs, Witherspoon, etc were all guilty of poor conditioning.

I had respect for guys like Weaver and Bruno who always came in to a fight in shape and gave their all.

I grew up thinking the 80s was the worst ever era for HW boxing. I guess most of the writers had been spoiled in the 70s.

The 90s should have been good, the talent was there, but most of the fights happened late in the boxer's careers or didn't happen at all.

It's hard to say because there aren't many current heavyweights that aren't overweight. Many of them could probably make cruiser. More than likely he doen't survive in the 90s against the crop of Lennox, Mercer, Holifield, Bowe, Morrison, or even Foreman. Call me crazy but I don't believe Vitali beats Foreman under age 46. Eventually he would catch him and the top 5 puncher of all time with one of the greatest chins and will beats him.
Before y'all get crazy, remember, Foreman would've never quit against Chris Byrd in ANY situation.

Oh my. The slow and relatively short Mercer beating Vitali? And the glacier slow Foreman who didn’t seem capable of blocking any of the limited Alex Stewarts shots? And the chin challenged Morrison? Let’s not get too carried away here.

IKSRTFO wrote:It's hard to say because there aren't many current heavyweights that aren't overweight. Many of them could probably make cruiser. More than likely he doen't survive in the 90s against the crop of Lennox, Mercer, Holifield, Bowe, Morrison, or even Foreman. Call me crazy but I don't believe Vitali beats Foreman under age 46. Eventually he would catch him and the top 5 puncher of all time with one of the greatest chins and will beats him.
Before y'all get crazy, remember, Foreman would've never quit against Chris Byrd in ANY situation.

- Foreman in any form wouldn't be able to touch Byrd, period, don't kid yourself, kid.

Mercer? Guy was lazier than Spoon with less talent. Mr. Field, the same guy who was lucky to scrape a majority decision in 3 encounters with Big Dummy, his only success in 5 fights against big men? Fat good his vitamins did him. Bowe tosses all his belts in the bin and runs off to fight Peter McNeely for the WBU title. Morrison's aggressive style made for Vitali's range, and the list of big men Morrison beat is ONE, ol' plodding Big George who was obviously ill prepared for the ballerina trained version of Morrison who showed up.

Foreman would prove interesting, but Vitali is a lot stronger than Mr. Field, smarter, with better footwork and 200% better accuracy. Give George a puncher's chance the others don't have. Lewis, whom George carefully never mentioned during his comeback, probably splits a series. Vitali is a much better fighter after his fluke loss to Lewis who was considered at the height of his powers coming off the Tyson win. One could dicker that Lewis was better prior, but it's certain that Vitali improved greatly from their encounter too.

You gents need to pluck the dusty cobwebs of yore from your eyes. You don't have to like the Vitali style, persona, competition, but you'll just look out and out blinkered when he's elected to the HOF with his brother. By my calculations since his first opportunity against Hide, he's had 16 fights, average opponent record is 33-3-1, a collective record of 535-48-10. He's stopped several fighters who'd never been stopped before, never been behind on the cards in a fight, blah, blah, you know, 92+ KO%, very tedious like a metronome, but as undeniable as time itself.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

IKSRTFO wrote:It's hard to say because there aren't many current heavyweights that aren't overweight. Many of them could probably make cruiser. More than likely he doen't survive in the 90s against the crop of Lennox, Mercer, Holifield, Bowe, Morrison, or even Foreman. Call me crazy but I don't believe Vitali beats Foreman under age 46. Eventually he would catch him and the top 5 puncher of all time with one of the greatest chins and will beats him.
Before y'all get crazy, remember, Foreman would've never quit against Chris Byrd in ANY situation.

- Foreman in any form wouldn't be able to touch Byrd, period, don't kid yourself, kid.

Mercer? Guy was lazier than Spoon with less talent. Mr. Field, the same guy who was lucky to scrape a majority decision in 3 encounters with Big Dummy, his only success in 5 fights against big men? Fat good his vitamins did him. Bowe tosses all his belts in the bin and runs off to fight Peter McNeely for the WBU title. Morrison's aggressive style made for Vitali's range, and the list of big men Morrison beat is ONE, ol' plodding Big George who was obviously ill prepared for the ballerina trained version of Morrison who showed up.

Foreman would prove interesting, but Vitali is a lot stronger than Mr. Field, smarter, with better footwork and 200% better accuracy. Give George a puncher's chance the others don't have. Lewis, whom George carefully never mentioned during his comeback, probably splits a series. Vitali is a much better fighter after his fluke loss to Lewis who was considered at the height of his powers coming off the Tyson win. One could dicker that Lewis was better prior, but it's certain that Vitali improved greatly from their encounter too.

You gents need to pluck the dusty cobwebs of yore from your eyes. You don't have to like the Vitali style, persona, competition, but you'll just look out and out blinkered when he's elected to the HOF with his brother. By my calculations since his first opportunity against Hide, he's had 16 fights, average opponent record is 33-3-1, a collective record of 535-48-10. He's stopped several fighters who'd never been stopped before, never been behind on the cards in a fight, blah, blah, you know, 92+ KO%, very tedious like a metronome, but as undeniable as time itself.

Foreman not stronger than Vitali? You obviously haven't watched some of his earlier fights. He slowed down on his comeback but had the same power. He's definetly top 5 in power. It's said Foreman punches harder than Tyson and we all can agree that Vitali while powerful is no Tyson.

In his prime, Foreman lost to the greatest.

In Vitali's prime, he lost to a maybe top 12 All time heavyweight and a blown up cruiser.

IKSRTFO wrote:

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

IKSRTFO wrote:It's hard to say because there aren't many current heavyweights that aren't overweight. Many of them could probably make cruiser. More than likely he doen't survive in the 90s against the crop of Lennox, Mercer, Holifield, Bowe, Morrison, or even Foreman. Call me crazy but I don't believe Vitali beats Foreman under age 46. Eventually he would catch him and the top 5 puncher of all time with one of the greatest chins and will beats him.
Before y'all get crazy, remember, Foreman would've never quit against Chris Byrd in ANY situation.

- Foreman in any form wouldn't be able to touch Byrd, period, don't kid yourself, kid.

Mercer? Guy was lazier than Spoon with less talent. Mr. Field, the same guy who was lucky to scrape a majority decision in 3 encounters with Big Dummy, his only success in 5 fights against big men? Fat good his vitamins did him. Bowe tosses all his belts in the bin and runs off to fight Peter McNeely for the WBU title. Morrison's aggressive style made for Vitali's range, and the list of big men Morrison beat is ONE, ol' plodding Big George who was obviously ill prepared for the ballerina trained version of Morrison who showed up.

Foreman would prove interesting, but Vitali is a lot stronger than Mr. Field, smarter, with better footwork and 200% better accuracy. Give George a puncher's chance the others don't have. Lewis, whom George carefully never mentioned during his comeback, probably splits a series. Vitali is a much better fighter after his fluke loss to Lewis who was considered at the height of his powers coming off the Tyson win. One could dicker that Lewis was better prior, but it's certain that Vitali improved greatly from their encounter too.

You gents need to pluck the dusty cobwebs of yore from your eyes. You don't have to like the Vitali style, persona, competition, but you'll just look out and out blinkered when he's elected to the HOF with his brother. By my calculations since his first opportunity against Hide, he's had 16 fights, average opponent record is 33-3-1, a collective record of 535-48-10. He's stopped several fighters who'd never been stopped before, never been behind on the cards in a fight, blah, blah, you know, 92+ KO%, very tedious like a metronome, but as undeniable as time itself.

Foreman not stronger than Vitali? You obviously haven't watched some of his earlier fights. He slowed down on his comeback but had the same power. He's definetly top 5 in power. It's said Foreman punches harder than Tyson and we all can agree that Vitali while powerful is no Tyson.

In his prime, Foreman lost to the greatest.

In Vitali's prime, he lost to a maybe top 12 All time heavyweight and a blown up cruiser.

Foreman still had good power in his comeback but it was nothing like it used to be, not even close. Old Foremans career was the most carefully orchestrated smoke and mirrors act ever put on in professional boxing.
As for Vitali, I don't particularly like to watch him fight but it's hard to argue against the results.

hhaehre wrote:Foreman still had good power in his comeback but it was nothing like it used to be, not even close. Old Foremans career was the most carefully orchestrated smoke and mirrors act ever put on in professional boxing.
As for Vitali, I don't particularly like to watch him fight but it's hard to argue against the results.

What he said.

IKSRTFO wrote: Foreman not stronger than Vitali? You obviously haven't watched some of his earlier fights. He slowed down on his comeback but had the same power. He's definetly top 5 in power. It's said Foreman punches harder than Tyson and we all can agree that Vitali while powerful is no Tyson.

In his prime, Foreman lost to the greatest.

In Vitali's prime, he lost to a maybe top 12 All time heavyweight and a blown up cruiser.

- You obviously need to go back and read for content. The Strength comparison is to Field.

In Foreman's prime neither he nor Ali were ranked alltime greats. Same deal with Lewis in his day, or the Klitschkos today. Nor did I ever state Vitali punches harder than Foreman, again content por favor. I gave Foreman a puncher's chance. Vitali is a boxer supreme with his very own style that works in spades for him. In Foreman's prime he was also knocked down by and lost to a feather fisted twig armed pudgeball. Easy to backhand era contenders.

The usual wholesale dismissal of the Klitschkos as being unable to compete in the 80s is just goofy. No different than in Foreman and Ali's day when they couldn't compete against Dempsey, Louis, and Jeffries. The only difference is now it's Dummy Jr and Dummy III pulling their thumbs out instead of the old originals.......

I remember many boxing people ranking Ali as an ATG during the 70’s. While I was also a fan during the 60’s I was really too young to pay much attention to opinions other than that of my father and his friends, all of him didn’t think much of Ali. However, during his 70’s reign he was held in very high esteem by many of the periods boxing “experts”.

Foreman also had a brief period after he stopped Norton where he was getting quite a bit of praise and mention with the AT punchers. Of course, once he was stopped by Ali and decisioned by Young, his stock fell. However, Holmes didn’t seem to get much recognition until long after his title reign.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

IKSRTFO wrote: Foreman not stronger than Vitali? You obviously haven't watched some of his earlier fights. He slowed down on his comeback but had the same power. He's definetly top 5 in power. It's said Foreman punches harder than Tyson and we all can agree that Vitali while powerful is no Tyson.

In his prime, Foreman lost to the greatest.

In Vitali's prime, he lost to a maybe top 12 All time heavyweight and a blown up cruiser.

- You obviously need to go back and read for content. The Strength comparison is to Field.

In Foreman's prime neither he nor Ali were ranked alltime greats. Same deal with Lewis in his day, or the Klitschkos today. Nor did I ever state Vitali punches harder than Foreman, again content por favor. I gave Foreman a puncher's chance. Vitali is a boxer supreme with his very own style that works in spades for him. In Foreman's prime he was also knocked down by and lost to a feather fisted twig armed pudgeball. Easy to backhand era contenders.

The usual wholesale dismissal of the Klitschkos as being unable to compete in the 80s is just goofy. No different than in Foreman and Ali's day when they couldn't compete against Dempsey, Louis, and Jeffries. The only difference is now it's Dummy Jr and Dummy III pulling their thumbs out instead of the old originals.......

Maybe I'm biased, but I just can't accept the idea of a fighter that is winning against a cruiserweight and decides that he can't go on being compared to ATGs who would go out on their shield every chance they got. Even Bowe as undisciplined as he was fought his heart out in the ring.

"...Old Foremans career was the most carefully orchestrated smoke and mirrors act ever put on in professional boxing..." - Hhaehre

What a crock of sh!t, not to mention a great way to take one giant dump on one of the sport's all-time great achievements.

"Maybe I'm biased, but I just can't accept the idea of a fighter that is winning against a cruiserweight and decides that he can't go on being compared to ATGs who would go out on their shield every chance they got. Even Bowe as undisciplined as he was fought his heart out in the ring." - IKSRTFO

Have someone tear your rotator cuff. I guarantee you will change your mind about Klitschko.

Many here will attest it's not my style to come to the defense of this guy, or his brother --- but, for once, I will agree with the (generally one-eyed) crowd who claim old-timers always get special treatment through history (true, but modern fighters & their, "advances" receive just as much BS in their favour) & say this --- Willie Pep did it. Sonny Liston did it. Vitali Klitschko did it.

Which of the above is forever singled out? Treat them all alike.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:"Old Foremans career was the most carefully orchestrated smoke and mirrors act ever put on in professional boxing..." - Hhaehre

What a crock of sh!t, not to mention a great way to take one giant dump on one of the sport's all-time great achievements.

I guess that single right hand against Moorer blinded you more than it did Moorer himself. A great cinderella story and certainly a great achievement given Foremans age but let's not forget the rest shall we. On his way to the second title Big George fought a selection of journeymen, handpicked and screened. Whenever he stepped up he struggled and usually lost.

I guess you are looking at a 45-year-old man throwing one punch & calling it nothing.

Said 45-year-old man was just that --- a 45-year-old man. Fought fighters (no matter what you think of their ability) almost half his fvckin' age. "Such-&-such was a crap fighter."

Yeah? Well, Foreman was in his forties & a lard-ass. How's that for evening up the odds? He couldn't be missed with a punch, took hellacious beatings, & kept fighting & winning. When he suffered setbacks worthy of defeating most men, he kept fighting. Lost every round to an undefeated, 26-year-old Moorer & took plenty of punishment in doing so & still pulled out the KO. He fought these young men for ten full years.

No one, anywhere, ever, has done all of this. If it's so easy, let's see it happen again. I suppose if you just look at one punch, it means oh-so-little. Ten years, vastly overweight, between the ages of thirty-eight & forty-eight, becoming a World Champion?

Smoke & mirrors, indeed.

Older Foreman was a boxing grand master. He worked on strength, power
trained. Learned to employ the cross arm defence well. Was a much different
animal for better and worse than his younger self.

His early come back fights were hand picked and crucial feeders to maximise
his marketablity. Even after he won the title, it was not as though he defended
against the best men he could have....though having said that, he was not in
his prime, so who could blame him ???

Goodnight, Irene wrote:I guess you are looking at a 45-year-old man throwing one punch & calling it nothing.

Said 45-year-old man was just that --- a 45-year-old man. Fought fighters (no matter what you think of their ability) almost half his fvckin' age. "Such-&-such was a crap fighter."

Yeah? Well, Foreman was in his forties & a lard-ass. How's that for evening up the odds? He couldn't be missed with a punch, took hellacious beatings, & kept fighting & winning. When he suffered setbacks worthy of defeating most men, he kept fighting. Lost every round to an undefeated, 26-year-old Moorer & took plenty of punishment in doing so & still pulled out the KO. He fought these young men for ten full years.

No one, anywhere, ever, has done all of this. If it's so easy, let's see it happen again. I suppose if you just look at one punch, it means oh-so-little. Ten years, vastly overweight, between the ages of thirty-eight & forty-eight, becoming a World Champion?

Smoke & mirrors, indeed.

Who said it was easy or that it was nothing? I said it was a great achievement given his age didn't I? What more do you want? Do you want me to praise the likes of Ken Lakusta, Mike Jameson and Jimmy Ellis just because they were younger than Foreman? They were the types of fighters making up the bulk of Foremans opposition in his comeback and Foreman beating them was no great surprise regardless of how old he was.
The arguments you have made in Foremans defense are all valid but you are aware that quite a lot of fight fans regard George of the 90's as better than the 70's version thus my "smoke and mirrors" comment.

IKSRTFO wrote:Maybe I'm biased, but I just can't accept the idea of a fighter that is winning against a cruiserweight and decides that he can't go on being compared to ATGs who would go out on their shield every chance they got. Even Bowe as undisciplined as he was fought his heart out in the ring.

- Probably you don't understand all the precedents.

Liston/Ali 1, first Ali tries to quit when blinded, and then Sonny does quit with a similar injury as Vitali. Marcel Cerdan dislocated his shoulder against Lamota and quit. Duran had to take a crap and quit. Carlos Ortiz, Oscar. Gerald McClellan was accused of quitting, and in fact he did which probably saved his life, not that anyone would wish his life on anyone

Vitali was savaged for years and still is, but in interviews you can see it's cultural difference where in America boxing is still a blood sport, and losers in traditional blood sports often put to death. Vitali comes from a culture regarding boxers as sportsmen for whom there are always other days. He has said that he wishes he had continued after all the flak, and indeed did continue with his eye hanging out against Lewis.

Brethren Wlad also accused of being a quitter after his corner tossed the towel against Puritty, the same actions as Futch did for Frazier, Mr. Field's corner against Toney, Ali's corner against Holmes, but nobody calls them quitters. No need for me to speculate the reasons since we already know.

BTW, Vitali threw 800+ punches in 10 rds, whereas Mr. Moneybags threw less than 500 in 12 rds, so if Vitali is "dull and plodding," what does that make MM? Did Ali ever throw 80 punches per round, landing some 40%, not that I'm a believer in punch stats, but some do.

hhaehre wrote: Do you want me to praise the likes of Ken Lakusta, Mike Jameson and Jimmy Ellis just because they were younger than Foreman? They were the types of fighters making up the bulk of Foremans opposition in his comeback and Foreman beating them was no great surprise regardless of how old he was.
The arguments you have made in Foremans defense are all valid but you are aware that quite a lot of fight fans regard George of the 90's as better than the 70's version thus my "smoke and mirrors" comment.

- The bulk of George's comeback was front-ended in stay busy, fight his way into shape fights while promoting himself across America. Big promoters thought him a joke and wouldn't give him opportunity. Finally his comeback record and publicity filled out so large that he attracted better opposition and promotions and then got his first title shot. After that, he's in with first rate opposition over all, fringe contender types if not legit contenders. Finishing up chasing and battering Briggs around the ring just before Briggs gave Lewis a big scare early in their fight is no smoke and mirrors. Grown men feared to trade with George.

Need to keep in mind that he never intended to fight Mr. Field or Moorer, his target was Tyson, thus a host of squatty fighters in the beginning, the Sekorskis, Qawi, Cooper, ect. Foreman was no joke as quotes attributed to Tyson are testament to where he goes ballistic on King for trying to arrange that fight.

In his prime George was also accused of ducking Shavers and Quarry, but they didn't have much overlap in his brief stay in the 70s and George didn't have much input in opponent selection like he did in his comeback. He was much smarter and better trained, even stronger in his comeback which made up for loss of speed, reflexes and cocky swagger of his youth.

Honestly it gets tiresome. Vitali has never beaten anyone that one would not expect the top 50 heavyweights of all time at there best to beat. Big deal he took three rounds of Lewis so did Mercer, Holyfield, Mavoric, Bruno. Heck Macall even managed to starch him.

Most all time greats would be undefeated v his competition. Seriously most prime greats would have taken the Lewis that fought Vitali.

As for Vitali in the 80's he would lose to Holmes, Tyson. Macall, Bruno, Witherspoon, Tucker, Douglas if he's it the right mindframe can all beat him. As for Wlad he got beat by all the above but you can add Bruno to the list. Tubbs is a 50-50, the Tubbs of the early nineties that fought Bowe could beat both Klits if he was not ko'd.

The 80's heavyweights were a talented crop whom for various reasons including certain promoters not paying what they promised not fulfilling thier potential. A lot of these fighters did jail time, drug addictions and what not. That said a lot of these fighters did have strengths that on there nights would give the brothers fits. Even on Bonecrusher could beat Wlad on his night.

The thing is if you put Vitali in the 80's, Don King would be able to have far more influence over his career and that may or may not have made him a better fighter and created opportunities.

As much as I do not like Vitali style, I think he would do well in 80's and 90's (or most other eras as well).

Size does matter, especially if one knows how to use it, and Vitali makes most of his opponents look like cruisers at best (well, some of them ARE just fat cruisers, but that is another thing).

There are some fighters I would favour over him due to style. I think Tyson would murder him, and so would LL. Others that could win... well, I think Holmes from early 80's may have a chance, especially if this would be 15 round fight, and prime Holyfield as well. Maybe in shape Whiterspoon (yes, I know this already sounds self-contradictory) would also give him some trouble with his overhand.

A prime Larry Holmes has, "a chance" against Vitali Klitschko.

As Granberry would say, "That's a winner." Puh-lease.