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Re: Can we stop the "Green is a 3-weight champion" nonsense?
Posted: 08 Oct 2009, 10:19
by Hounddawg
oliverfennell wrote:To use a Aus-relevant comparison, what if Katsidis does get the Marquez fight? How would the PR men hype Marquez? If he's "merely" a three-weight world champion, then he's "only" of Green's standard...
Now, Marquez IS a three-weight world champion, and among P4P rankings. Typically you have to be of that standard to win three genuine world titles in different divisions. I think that's why I took particular exception to this line about Green, because it makes him out to be a modern great (in international terms). I wouldn't have a problem even with him being labelled as a current world champion for the purposes of this individual fight. It's par for the course and I guess I'm numbed to it. It's just the trumpeting of the three weights was excessive.
Marquez is what you think of when you think of world champions; someone who's been in with the likes of Mayweather, Pacquaio, Barrera, Casamayor, etc. Green, meanwhile, has been in with Beyer, Lucas, Drews and Mundine, and has lost more than he's won from that roll call.
Now, please, I'm not running down Green personally here, before anyone jumps on that last sentence. He is obviously world class and a strong, exciting challenge for Jones. But it does show the difference between an ACTUAL three-weight world champion, and a "three-weight world champion" for the purposes of hyping a fight. (Which would still sell out if there was a replica WWE belt from Toys-R-Us on the line).
I'm a huge Green fan, but I think Danny needs to realize that an Interim title is not a title, however, and this is nationalism coming out in me, he destroyed Beyer in that first fight and was way ahead on points(possibly
) before he was DQed in a horrendous decision and should have dethroned Beyer....but he didn't win the full version of the WBC.
I like what the IBO are doing but it's not a world title.
Re: Can we stop the "Green is a 3-weight champion" nonsense?
Posted: 08 Oct 2009, 10:54
by oliverfennell
I've never seen the first Beyer fight, but I've read Aussie fans saying he was "robbed", while neutral reports simply said he was DQ'd for intentional headbutts. If the latter was indeed true, what exactly was the controversy?
Re: Can we stop the "Green is a 3-weight champion" nonsense?
Posted: 08 Oct 2009, 16:43
by Collins2000
oliverfennell wrote:toppity wrote:get a dog up ya
What does that even mean?
Seeking some cultural exchange, that's all.
"when I hear the word culture, I reach for my gun"
Re: Can we stop the "Green is a 3-weight champion" nonsense?
Posted: 08 Oct 2009, 17:38
by marcianofan
Hounddawg wrote:oliverfennell wrote:I like what the IBO are doing but it's not a world title.
None of the alphabets are world titles. I hope we can agree on that. The WBC champion is the champion of the WBC. That's all. Being a World Champion requires not only that you're the best in the world, but that you do something to prove it, and you keep that Championship until someone takes it from you or until you give it away (not including under duress). Pacquiao is clearly the Junior Welterweight champion (despite having only the IBO Belt) because he ripped it from the hands of Ricky Hatton, who at least at that time was the best Jr. Welterweight in the world (a distinction which, Pacquiao excluded is probably held by Tim Bradley now). I actually think the IBO is closer to a real world championship than the other alphabets. At least it's consistent. If you look at the real legitimate world champions out there right now (Calderon, Naito, Marquez, Pacquiao, Pavlik, Adamek, and Klitschko as far as I'm concerned) and which organizations recognize them, the WBO is the best, boasting Calderon, Marquez, Pavlik, and Wlad Klitschko (plus Erdei who has practically abandoned his claim to the World Championship by fighting absolutely nobody significant since 2005). The IBF comes in 2nd with Marquez, Adamek, and Klitschko. The IBO and WBC are tied with 2 each (Klitschko and Pacquiao for the IBO and Pavlik and Naito for the WBC) and the abysmal WBA has only Marquez, which it considers its "super champion."
Re: Can we stop the "Green is a 3-weight champion" nonsense?
Posted: 08 Oct 2009, 20:00
by Brute
Does anybody else remember that night in November 1988 when Sugar Ray Leonard increased his total of World Titles by two on the same night?
Donny Lalonde was to defend his WBC Light Heavyweight title against Leonard, but somebody at the WBC got a brainwave and decided that, seeing the WBC did not have a Super Middleweight Champion they would kill two birds with the same stone. Lalonde, a tall light heavyweight had to get down under 168 pounds instead of his usual fighting weight of 174 pounds. Leonard, coming back from a brief retirement was 165 pounds, a pretty usual weight for him.
Leonard won by KO in nine rounds and was awarded both titles.
You would not get away with it now.
Re: Can we stop the "Green is a 3-weight champion" nonsense?
Posted: 08 Oct 2009, 20:29
by BroughtonRulesRefuge
perfect jet wrote:They are all self serving corrupt organisations. But I don't think the IBF or WBC would sanction Lovemore Ndou v Philip Ndou for a world title.
DD
- Need to start thinking better. Berto won his WBC welter title beating Miguel Angel Rodriguez who never beat a top 20 welt and was mainly known for losing an eliminator to Sasquatch Baldomir years back. Currently ranked 122nd.
Berto's first defense was against former lightweight champ Steve Forbes who'd lost 3 of his last 4.
IBO is as credible as any save in length of reputation.
Re: Can we stop the "Green is a 3-weight champion" nonsense?
Posted: 08 Oct 2009, 23:35
by jezzamundo
I tend to agree BRR. I feel that a nice solution to the current "alphabet soup" problem, is if all fighters recognised the IBO as being the genuine world title and simply ignored the rest. It is not biased and does not make demand mandatory defenses. I have no problem with their rankings, but unfortunately most of their current champs are not recognised (or even ranked by the IBO) as being the best in their division.
Re: Can we stop the "Green is a 3-weight champion" nonsense?
Posted: 08 Oct 2009, 23:45
by jezzamundo
oliverfennell wrote:I've never seen the first Beyer fight, but I've read Aussie fans saying he was "robbed", while neutral reports simply said he was DQ'd for intentional headbutts. If the latter was indeed true, what exactly was the controversy?
I've seen the fight a couple of times. The official ruling from the referee was that the cut was caused by an accidental head clash, most agree that the first of the two butts was accidental. There was a second, more blatant butt that Green claims was accidental, but I thought was deliberate at the time (not so sure now, Green seems like an honest guy). Beyer claims that this second butt worsened the cut, but replays suggest that it missed the cut entirely.
The referee deducted two points from Green for the second butt, but when the doctor stopped the fight, he said that the fight would go to the scorecards. Green had knocked Beyer down in rounds 1 and 2, I scored round 3 for Green and round 4 for Beyer, not sure what the official scorecards were, but had it gone to the scorecards, Green would have won the WBC Super Middleweight Title. With constant insistence from the doctor and several people outside the ring, the referee changed his mind and disqualified Green.
The rematch was a poor performance by Green, who weighed a career light 166lb. I scored it 6-5-1 to Beyer, which with the KD made it 114-114. When I re-watched it, I scored it to Beyer by 1 point, and I think that Beyer certainly deserved to win the fight.
Re: Can we stop the "Green is a 3-weight champion" nonsense?
Posted: 09 Oct 2009, 01:23
by toppity
jezzamundo wrote:oliverfennell wrote:I've never seen the first Beyer fight, but I've read Aussie fans saying he was "robbed", while neutral reports simply said he was DQ'd for intentional headbutts. If the latter was indeed true, what exactly was the controversy?
I've seen the fight a couple of times. The official ruling from the referee was that the cut was caused by an accidental head clash, most agree that the first of the two butts was accidental. There was a second, more blatant butt that Green claims was accidental, but I thought was deliberate at the time (not so sure now, Green seems like an honest guy). Beyer claims that this second butt worsened the cut, but replays suggest that it missed the cut entirely.
The referee deducted two points from Green for the second butt, but when the doctor stopped the fight, he said that the fight would go to the scorecards. Green had knocked Beyer down in rounds 1 and 2, I scored round 3 for Green and round 4 for Beyer, not sure what the official scorecards were, but had it gone to the scorecards, Green would have won the WBC Super Middleweight Title. With constant insistence from the doctor and several people outside the ring, the referee changed his mind and disqualified Green.
The rematch was a poor performance by Green, who weighed a career light 166lb. I scored it 6-5-1 to Beyer, which with the KD made it 114-114. When I re-watched it, I scored it to Beyer by 1 point, and I think that Beyer certainly deserved to win the fight.
good post, although i reckon the second head butt definately has some malice in it.
Re: Can we stop the "Green is a 3-weight champion" nonsense?
Posted: 09 Oct 2009, 08:43
by Hounddawg
jezzamundo wrote:oliverfennell wrote:I've never seen the first Beyer fight, but I've read Aussie fans saying he was "robbed", while neutral reports simply said he was DQ'd for intentional headbutts. If the latter was indeed true, what exactly was the controversy?
I've seen the fight a couple of times. The official ruling from the referee was that the cut was caused by an accidental head clash, most agree that the first of the two butts was accidental. There was a second, more blatant butt that Green claims was accidental, but I thought was deliberate at the time (not so sure now, Green seems like an honest guy). Beyer claims that this second butt worsened the cut, but replays suggest that it missed the cut entirely.
The referee deducted two points from Green for the second butt, but when the doctor stopped the fight, he said that the fight would go to the scorecards. Green had knocked Beyer down in rounds 1 and 2, I scored round 3 for Green and round 4 for Beyer, not sure what the official scorecards were, but had it gone to the scorecards, Green would have won the WBC Super Middleweight Title. With constant insistence from the doctor and several people outside the ring, the referee changed his mind and disqualified Green.
The rematch was a poor performance by Green, who weighed a career light 166lb. I scored it 6-5-1 to Beyer, which with the KD made it 114-114. When I re-watched it, I scored it to Beyer by 1 point, and I think that Beyer certainly deserved to win the fight.
A very accurate account of what happened, I often think about how different Danny's career would of been had he not been robbed,
Re: Can we stop the "Green is a 3-weight champion" nonsense?
Posted: 09 Oct 2009, 10:05
by oliverfennell
Thanks for filling me in.
So, the original cut was caused by a clash, but was worsened by what MAY have been an intentional butt?
If it WAS intentional, I guess you have to ask whether it would have caused a cut in the absense of an existing one.
Perhaps it was harsh officiating, but I don't think any instance of a foul leading to a DQ is a "robbery". But again, I haven't seen the fight.
Re: Can we stop the "Green is a 3-weight champion" nonsense?
Posted: 09 Oct 2009, 16:23
by toppity
oliverfennell wrote:Thanks for filling me in.
So, the original cut was caused by a clash, but was worsened by what MAY have been an intentional butt?
If it WAS intentional, I guess you have to ask whether it would have caused a cut in the absense of an existing one.
Perhaps it was harsh officiating, but I don't think any instance of a foul leading to a DQ is a "robbery". But again, I haven't seen the fight.
It was nothing compared to what the likes of Holyfield have done, and got away with.
Re: Can we stop the "Green is a 3-weight champion" nonsense?
Posted: 09 Oct 2009, 22:19
by Sweet P
oliverfennell wrote:Thanks for filling me in.
So, the original cut was caused by a clash, but was worsened by what MAY have been an intentional butt?
If it WAS intentional, I guess you have to ask whether it would have caused a cut in the absense of an existing one.
Perhaps it was harsh officiating, but I don't think any instance of a foul leading to a DQ is a "robbery". But again, I haven't seen the fight.
The Head butt missed the cut, It didnt worsen it. The cut ws already there, I thought the first cut was from a punch. But they called it a headclash. I will look through my DVD's and watch it again.
Re: Can we stop the "Green is a 3-weight champion" nonsense?
Posted: 09 Oct 2009, 22:59
by Brute
oliverfennell wrote:Thanks for filling me in.
So, the original cut was caused by a clash, but was worsened by what MAY have been an intentional butt?
If it WAS intentional, I guess you have to ask whether it would have caused a cut in the absense of an existing one.
Perhaps it was harsh officiating, but I don't think any instance of a foul leading to a DQ is a "robbery". But again, I haven't seen the fight.
The second head clash was near the back of Beyer's head.