Rating the Heavyweights of the 1960s

[ThatOne]

Here's the quote that sparked it all.


Gawd, can you imagine how badly 1967 Ali embarasses Ingo?


Then it was changed to a green Cassius Clay. Well Clay wasn't scared of him. And I am confident he could have fought a competitive fight, They ninetten year old Clay could certainly "dance" for fifteen rounds. One suspects Ingo eventually gets frustrated at some time

[HomicideHenry]

Not when they are 4-0-0 or 5-0-0.

Not Marciano, not Johnson, not Jeffries, not Dempsey, not Duran, not Leonard, not Hagler, not Greb, not any of those ATG's at THAT point in their careers jump up and beat a world's champion. Mike Tyson, as you cited, at 4-0-0 had beaten nobody---certainly Holmes and the WBA champions at that time would have handed his ass to him. Robinson at 4-0-0, certainly would have had his head handed to him.

What you're proposing now is that any ATG at the novice stage could beat one of the worser champions, say a young Corbett taking on Marvin Hart. That's completely different. Both men were from different eras altogether----Ali and Johansson in 1961 co-existed, one was still at his peak, the other was green.

The 1961 Ali wouldnt have beaten Johansson, and I'm certain it wouldnt have even been competitive. The fight would go four rounds tops, Johansson kayoing Ali. Ali was just a kid, brash and still having a long way to go, much to learn and face. He would have made a mistake, and would have gladly paid for it. Johansson may have been a one trick pony, but he kayoed much better fighters than the 1961 version of Muhammad Ali was.

[Controversial]

Then with your rationale Clay could have beaten Johansson in his pro debut. That's just silly. There is no instance in history where its ever been done for a man to beat a worlds champion in his pro debut. At 4-0-0, you are honestly wagering your entire fighting knowledge and reputation that Muhammad Ali with less than a handful of fights could have EASILY defeated Ingemar Johansson who kayoed master fighters Eddie Machen in one round, Patterson in three, and Cooper in five?

Firstly I didn't say it would be easy. Styles make fights and Ingo was made for Clay. Ingo was a big puncher but remember Patterson and the inexperienced 14-4 Cooper (who was coming off 2 ko losses) were quite chinny so the fact they got knocked out is hardly shocking. Even Ali managed to stop them both. It was a good result against Machen, classic example of a knockout artist at work but that would have been his only hope against Clay.

I don't think its impossible for a fighter to beat a top tier fighter after a few fights or even in their debut. A 10-0 Holyfield beat Qawi to win the title, as did Spinks against Ali. The matchups hardly ever happen so its a hard question to answer.

You could argue that if a fighter is stopped in his early career he is not going to be successful, as we know lots of examples of fighters losing early in their career but being very successful.

I can quite easily see a debutante Tyson or Lewis beating fighters who on paper look dead certs to win. Remember Tyson only boxed 70 odd rounds when he fought Berbick, most of his fights were over before they started.

[ThatOne]

Ezzard-

I never hijacked the thread. I said Ali beats or beat everybody on that list and embarrasses a 1967 Ingo. Somehow it was changed to how a raw Ali would do. I think he would be competitive.

I was then asked to supply a list of great, raw , young, athletes who dominated their sport and I did.

Respectfully, your point about there being no or little difference between baseball, basketball, and football at the pro level as opposed to lower is incorrect. The winnowing out process is huge. There are about 3,000 athletes playing in the NBA, NFL, and MLB. There were probably an infinitely greater amount playing those sports at the collegiate and high school level who weren't good enough to take the next step.

[HomicideHenry]

So its IMPOSSIBLE for Johansson to have kayoed the 1961 version of Ali?

This isnt the Ali who fought Frazier and Foreman and Shavers, this is a kid who had yet to be downed by Sonny Banks who nobody remembers ffs....I dont see how you can say an ATG puncher like Johansson couldnt knock out Ali at that time in his life.

[ThatOne]

Gentlemen-I just don't think any version of Ingo is going to clown Muhummad Ali. He was too big, too fast, with cat like reflexes against the plodding, short armed, European.

At the worst Ali gets on his bicycle. I don't see Ingo chasing him for fifteen rounds and I don't see a nineteen year old Ali having trouble staying away.

[HomicideHenry]

And what makes you think a kid used to fighting three and four and six round fights could run away from Johansson for 10, 12, or even 15 rounds?

[The Great John L]

And what makes you think a kid used to fighting three and four and six round fights could run away from Johansson for 10, 12, or even 15 rounds?

C'mon Rufus; because he's Ali that's why. Err, well actually he was Clay then, but you know what I mean.

[ThatOne]

And what makes you think a kid used to fighting three and four and six round fights could run away from Johansson for 10, 12, or even 15 rounds?

C'mon Rufus; because he's Ali that's why. Err, well actually he was Clay then, but you know what I mean.

Heck, I think Mike Tyson, George Foreman, Joe Frazier, and possibly some other heavyweights would have been competitive with Ingo at the same points in their career

Tyson had a whole year of experience when he knocked out, destroyed, ruined Trevor Berbick and won the hw championship and I'll take the boxer who fought fiteen competitive rounds with Larry Holmes against Ingo.

[HomicideHenry]

You've lost all credability with me. I'm done with this debate, which is no debate, because no 4-0-0 fighter no matter who they were, could beat a world's champion.

[ThatOne]

You've lost all credability with me. I'm done with this debate, which is no debate, because no 4-0-0 fighter no matter who they were, could beat a world's champion.

I'm sorry you feel that way. As de Tocqueville said what he liked most about America is the common man's opinion; that very man's opinions is aa good as another and I think I met answered every question in this thread honestly, candidly, and intelligently.

[The Great John L]

Tyson had a whole year of experience when he knocked out, destroyed, ruined Trevor Berbick and won the hw championship and I'll take the boxer who fought fiteen competitive rounds with Larry Holmes against Ingo.

Tyson had 27 fights before fighting Berbick and had beaten a number of ranked fighters. How does that justifying a guy 4-0 beating a world champion?

And let's not forget that Berbick was merely a title holder among many, while Ingo was the true world champion.

[ThatOne]

Tyson had a whole year of experience when he knocked out, destroyed, ruined Trevor Berbick and won the hw championship and I'll take the boxer who fought fiteen competitive rounds with Larry Holmes against Ingo.

Tyson had 27 fights before fighting Berbick and had beaten a number of ranked fighters. How does that justifying a guy 4-0 beating a world champion?

And let's not forget that Berbick was merely a title holder among many, while Ingo was the true world champion.

Tyson was boxing every month. It must have been a lot of learning in a short period of time.

And Berbick was a decent fighter with some quality wins uunder his belt.

I just don't think Ingo clowns the young Clay. I am sure there are experts on both sides of the fence of what would have happened.

[The Great John L]

I just don't think Ingo clowns the young Clay. I am sure there are experts on both sides of the fence of what would have happened.

Possibly, but the crowd on your side of the fence is probably pretty small. There's nothing wrong with having a minority opinion BTW.

[ThatOne]

I just don't think Ingo clowns the young Clay. I am sure there are experts on both sides of the fence of what would have happened.

Possibly, but the crowd on your side of the fence is probably pretty small. There's nothing wrong with having a minority opinion BTW.

If you read this thread you will see how it developed. I never said a nineteen year old Cassius Clay could beat Ingo. There was a list of the great 60's fighters and I opined that Ali beat or could beat all or beat all of them and the 67 Ali would embarrass Ingo. I think 67 Ali could literally pitch a shutout agianst him to mix metaphors. Then someone said " are you one of those who think a nineteen year old Clay could beat Ingo?"

I said it would be a competitive fight. I just don't see him, walking in there, knocking out Clay, and being done with it.

It was done only once in his amateur and professional career which spanned, what, twenty five years?

[HomicideHenry]

Okay, the furthest I can imagine and be willing to talk about is the possibility that Ali at 4-0-0 could be competitive, at least for a while, with Johansson. Let's say we'll go for broke and make this a 15 rounder. Many questions to ask here. How long can a four round fighter dance in a 15 round fight? How will a 4-0-0 fighter be able to effectively keep off a world champion fighter who was equally impressive as an amateur?

IMO, we can say judging from the sparring session, which is all done with kid gloves, that Ali could survive at least two rounds, and for generousity sake we'll double that and say he could dodge Johansson's charges for four rounds. BUT....I say take a look at :30 of the video where Ali misses Johansson, and if you watch the video, Ali does get in close with Johansson and gets tagged by Ingo.

If Ali can get tagged in sparring, certainly in a real fight, Ingo's going to land more and often [mind you this was decade before Ali was allowing sparring partners to beat on is body to perfect the rope a dope, he danced in sparring in is early career]. This was just kids gloves, and Ali at 4-0-0 was missing, throwing wild hooks at points, was getting too close to Johansson, had head gear on and the gloves looked pretty thick. In a real fight scenario....Johansson might do this to a young Clay coming in too close

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezLbrjlyTuQ

See how fast that right hand snuck up on Eddie Machen? And Machen was a guy who went the distance with a hard puncher like Sonny Liston, and he had years of experience with all types of fighters. This wasnt the Ali who befuddled Liston, made guys look bad who were considered monsters and great contenders---this was a kid coming out of the Olympics beating up on third tier journeymen. Machen was undefeated, should have gotten a shot at Patterson, but all it took was one mistake, and one quick hand from Johansson. People forget how fast Johansson was not just with his hands but with backing away from an opponent.

ThatOne, I'm glad you at least admitted a prime Moore could beat the 4-0-0 Ali. But you still persist to hold on to the notion that Ali at that stage would be COMPETITIVE against Johansson. I again urge you to look at this post, and the Machen-Johansson video. I dont have the time or the patience, I suppose, as you dont have the time, to dive deep into Johansson's career and his abilities, any more than you can try and restore faith in the Ali religion that a 4-0-0 Ali could have been competitive with a man a month or two removed from his title reign.

Agree to disagree, I suppose. Shame, was hoping to get at least one debate resolved before Christmas.

[hhaehre]

They ninetten year old Clay could certainly "dance" for fifteen rounds.

Could he? When did Clay/Ali ever dance for 15 rounds?
And please end this bullshit about Ingo the "one trick pony". No "one trick pony" ever became hw champion. Ingo could throw every punch in the book just like any other world class boxers.

[HomicideHenry]

They ninetten year old Clay could certainly "dance" for fifteen rounds.

Could he? When did Clay/Ali ever dance for 15 rounds?
And please end this bullshit about Ingo the "one trick pony". No "one trick pony" ever became hw champion. Ingo could throw every punch in the book just like any other world class boxers.

That is true. Even in matches against Young, Spinks, Frazier, Chuvalo, Terrell, Patterson, that went the distance, he wasn't dancing the entire damn time.

[ThatOne]

Ingo famously said "his sister hit harder than Ali" If you don't think that isn't more far fetched than entertaining the possibility that the light heavyweight Olympic Gold Medalist who would go on to become a consensus top three atg heavyweight could give him a competitive fight than I respectfully submit you examine your own biases as much as you are examining mine.

[HomicideHenry]

But when someones fighting backwards most of the time, and off their toes and throwing jabs more than anything else---I imagine for a heavyweight Ali probably didn't hit anywhere near as hard as anyone Johansson ever faced up until that time. How many times have you actually seen the young Ali stagger a top notch contender or knock them around or even down and out? You rarely saw it. When he became older, slower, he became more flat footed, therefore he could put is weight behind his blows---then people began to feel more the effect of his punches, but even then, has ANY Ali opponent commented on Ali's punching prowess? Hell no.

[ThatOne]

But when someones fighting backwards most of the time, and off their toes and throwing jabs more than anything else---I imagine for a heavyweight Ali probably didn't hit anywhere near as hard as anyone Johansson ever faced up until that time. How many times have you actually seen the young Ali stagger a top notch contender or knock them around or even down and out? You rarely saw it. When he became older, slower, he became more flat footed, therefore he could put is weight behind his blows---then people began to feel more the effect of his punches, but even then, has ANY Ali opponent commented on Ali's punching prowess? Hell no.

Ali wasn't a great puncher but the cumulative effect of his jabs certainly would take a toll. How many fighters did any version of Ali cut to pieces? I suspect Ali stopped more opponents on cuts as a percentage than many, many boxers.

I like what Holmes said when his punch was questioned. He said "before you knock somebody out you got to get them drunk first, alluding to the cumulative effect of his jabs.

[ThatOne]

But when someones fighting backwards most of the time, and off their toes and throwing jabs more than anything else---I imagine for a heavyweight Ali probably didn't hit anywhere near as hard as anyone Johansson ever faced up until that time. How many times have you actually seen the young Ali stagger a top notch contender or knock them around or even down and out? You rarely saw it. When he became older, slower, he became more flat footed, therefore he could put is weight behind his blows---then people began to feel more the effect of his punches, but even then, has ANY Ali opponent commented on Ali's punching prowess? Hell no.

And lots of fighters commented on Ali's jabs. Folley said the cumulative effect of his jabs made him crazy and Moore said Ali kept hitting him up top the head messed up his mind. I know Moore was well past it but he admits that he couldn't beat Ali in his prime.

BTW-Moore is one of my favorites. It would have been fun to see Angie and Moore in his corner. I know Gil Clancy was in his corner with Angie for the Banks fight because he said when Banks knocked down Ali Angie was more panicked than Ali.

[HomicideHenry]

making someone frustrated and hurt are two different things though, you're confusing power with something else altogether.

[HomicideHenry]

Also, when has anyone taken the 'I could never have beaten that guy ever' as meaning anything? When Joe Louis said he could never have beaten Marciano, is it the truth? When Jeffries lost to Johnson and said he couldnt beat him or touched him in 1,000 years was that a fact? I think a prime Moore could have beaten the 4-0-0 Ali too.

[ThatOne]

Also, when has anyone taken the 'I could never have beaten that guy ever' as meaning anything? When Joe Louis said he could never have beaten Marciano, is it the truth? When Jeffries lost to Johnson and said he couldnt beat him or touched him in 1,000 years was that a fact? I think a prime Moore could have beaten the 4-0-0 Ali too.

Most defiintely a prime Moore beats a untested Ali.

He also said a Prime Ali would beat Joe Louis four out of five. That's Archie saying that; not me. I have to make a living and I can't spend the next three days defending that proposition.

I juat think an in shape Ali had so many tools- reach, height, reflexes, innate knowledge of distance and leverage, speed, and courage that make him a tough matchup for any boxer in any era.