Johansson, Clay, Tyson, Spinks, Patterson and Liston .......

[ThatOne]

Who cares if a Prime Ingo could beat a Raw Ali?

It's a testament to Ali's greatness that in a theoretical matchup he has the handicap of fighting a heavyweight champion with four fights under his belt.

It would be like arguing that Tiger Woods could beat Jack Nickalaus in the Master's Tournament at nineteen years old.

Any Ali from 1964 to 1976 gives Ingo a boxing clinic.

Comparing Ingemarr Johansson with Muhummad , prime for prime, is like comparing the prime acting careers of Robert DeNiro and Tom Arnold.

[ThatOne]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_q3pmDhdT0

Watch this, ok?

And you tell me, it would be that much a cinch for Ali to beat Johansson with only 5 fights or less.

Respectfully, that's irrelevant. Muhammad Ali isn't Pete Rademacher and Ingo isn't Floyd Patterson.

[HomicideHenry]

You say Clay clearly had no fear of Johansson. The video link I just showed you, was a great example of courage against experience. Rademacher didn't fear Patterson, and his enthusiasm in his abilities (especially in round two) made him believe he would easily defeat Patterson in his pro debut. BUT....the following round, Patterson came back and from then on out it was a massacre for Rademacher.

Clay may not of feared Johansson as Rademacher didt fear Patterson, and both Clay and Rademacher did have alot going for them in skill;---but that fight is a perfect model, perfect example of what would happen between a novice and a true pro, no matter how blessed they are in skill.

[HomicideHenry]

Who cares if a Prime Ingo could beat a Raw Ali?

It's a testament to Ali's greatness that in a theoretical matchup he has the handicap of fighting a heavyweight champion with four fights under his belt.

It would be like arguing that Tiger Woods could beat Jack Nickalaus in the Master's Tournament at nineteen years old.

Any Ali from 1964 to 1976 gives Ingo a boxing clinic.

Comparing Ingemarr Johansson with Muhummad , prime for prime, is like comparing the prime acting careers of Robert DeNiro and Tom Arnold.

That was never argued or debated. Ingo against prime Ali always loses, and probably in a very miserable fashion. The debate was and still is and always, whether Ingo in 1961 could have lost to the 5-0-0 Cassius Clay.

[ThatOne]

You say Clay clearly had no fear of Johansson. The video link I just showed you, was a great example of courage against experience. Rademacher didn't fear Patterson, and his enthusiasm in his abilities (especially in round two) made him believe he would easily defeat Patterson in his pro debut. BUT....the following round, Patterson came back and from then on out it was a massacre for Rademacher.

Clay may not of feared Johansson as Rademacher didt fear Patterson, and both Clay and Rademacher did have alot going for them in skill;---but that fight is a perfect model, perfect example of what would happen between a novice and a true pro, no matter how blessed they are in skill.

One of the difference is Patterson didn't fear Rademacher. For whatever reason Ingo turned town Clay's $100,000.00 offer.

We will never know because Ingo refused to accept Clay's challenge, will we?

[hhaehre]

I just think if there was a heavyweight champ that a four fight Ali could be competitive with it was Ingo.

I think what it boils down to is a gross underestimation of Ingo. He was no atg but he only lost two fights as a pro and he destroyed solid world class fighters like Cooper and Machen. Then there is Patterson, a man you consider a near atg and a man Ingo was on almost even terms with head to head. The series between them proves that the first fight was no fluke.
Even you will have to agree that Ingo had a huge right hand, how would the kind of power Ingo had leave room for error on Clays part?

[HomicideHenry]

You say Clay clearly had no fear of Johansson. The video link I just showed you, was a great example of courage against experience. Rademacher didn't fear Patterson, and his enthusiasm in his abilities (especially in round two) made him believe he would easily defeat Patterson in his pro debut. BUT....the following round, Patterson came back and from then on out it was a massacre for Rademacher.

Clay may not of feared Johansson as Rademacher didt fear Patterson, and both Clay and Rademacher did have alot going for them in skill;---but that fight is a perfect model, perfect example of what would happen between a novice and a true pro, no matter how blessed they are in skill.

One of the difference is Patterson didn't fear Rademacher. For whatever reason Ingo turned town Clay's $100,000.00 offer.

Another is it was considered the fight games biggest joke (Rademacher/Patterson). How could a guy who never had a pro fight get ranked inside the top 10 and get a title shot? The predictable outcome just proved everyones already irate feelings about the situation. Patterson should have been fighting the likes of Eddie Machen, Sonny Liston, etc but instead managed to face the likes of Rademacher, McNeeley, Harris and London. Thank D'Amato for being able to get the IBC to do whatever he wanted.

IMO, Johansson was preparing for a title match with Patterson, why would he take $100,000 to fight a 5-0-0 kid, when he could get back the title, and make twice that kind of cash or more if he managed to win the title back [of course he didnt, but I imagine that was running through Johansson's mind]. The reward outweighed the risk, Johansson wanted the title back and clear that mark off his record.

A fight with Clay would have meant nothing for him, or better put, not been in his interest, not because there was an element of danger or the possibility of losing, but because Clay wasnt anybody at that time and place but the Olympic Gold medal winner, a win over such a novice wouldn't have meant anything, and would have got Johansson nothing---Patterson was the one who held the real prize.

[hhaehre]

You say Clay clearly had no fear of Johansson. The video link I just showed you, was a great example of courage against experience. Rademacher didn't fear Patterson, and his enthusiasm in his abilities (especially in round two) made him believe he would easily defeat Patterson in his pro debut. BUT....the following round, Patterson came back and from then on out it was a massacre for Rademacher.

Clay may not of feared Johansson as Rademacher didt fear Patterson, and both Clay and Rademacher did have alot going for them in skill;---but that fight is a perfect model, perfect example of what would happen between a novice and a true pro, no matter how blessed they are in skill.

One of the difference is Patterson didn't fear Rademacher. For whatever reason Ingo turned town Clay's $100,000.00 offer.

We will never know because Ingo refused to accept Clay's challenge, will we?

I believe very few professional fighters fear each other. The whole fear thing is largely made up by boxing writers looking for psychological angles that are often not there. Do you really think Ingo feared Clay in 1961 based on two rounds of sparring?

[ThatOne]

I just think if there was a heavyweight champ that a four fight Ali could be competitive with it was Ingo.

I think what it boils down to is a gross underestimation of Ingo. He was no atg but he only lost two fights as a pro and he destroyed solid world class fighters like Cooper and Machen. Then there is Patterson, a man you consider a near atg and a man Ingo was on almost even terms with head to head. The series between them proves that the first fight was no fluke.
Even you will have to agree that Ingo had a huge right hand, how would the kind of power Ingo had leave room for error on Clays part?

The left hook was Ali's poison. The right , as you know, takes longer to deliver.

I will say it as carefully as possible. If there was ever a heavyweight champion that a four fight Ali could conceievably be competitive with it was a slow, relatively small. stand up straight, heavyweight with a 72' reach. We aren't taliking Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, or Rocky Marciano.

And you sir are correct it has much to do with Ingo as it does with Ali.

[ThatOne]

If I could get into Ingo's head the risks of fighting the novice Clay ourweighed the rewards.

If he wins "he beat up a kid". If he loses "he got beat by a kid".


I think it's why Tyson didn't fight an old George Foreman. If he wins "he beat up an old man". And if he loses "he got beat by an old man."

Do I think boxers fear other boxers?

Of course. Fear is a primary emotion. It's how you react to that fear that defines you. I think some of Tyson's early opponents before he was revealed didn't react well to the fear and performed accordingly.

[HomicideHenry]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6vU8Os4CN4

^^^The Johansson that Ali would have faced, even in a losing effort to Patterson, managed to give Floyd the fight of his life, knocking him down multiple times

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tej_r5OFYwM

^^^The Ali that Johansson would have faced (well not exactly, as this was the Ali who fought Sonny Banks, and Ali was 10-0-0), even five fights ahead could still be caught, Banks was a right hander as well

[hhaehre]

The left hook was Ali's poison. The right , as you know, takes longer to deliver.

It's a myth that Ali only got caught with left hooks. Plenty of fighters landed right hands on him.

[ThatOne]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6vU8Os4CN4

^^^The Johansson that Ali would have faced, even in a losing effort to Patterson, managed to give Floyd the fight of his life, knocking him down multiple times

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tej_r5OFYwM

^^^The Ali that Johansson would have faced (well not exactly, as this was the Ali who fought Sonny Banks, and Ali was 10-0-0), even five fights ahead could still be caught, Banks was a right hander as well

Point 1) The punch that dropped Clay was a left. Ingo's trademark punch was his right.

Pont2) Of course Ingo was right handed as is most boxers and most people.

Point3) Banks was much, much faster than Ingo and taller too with more range

Point 4) They were totally different fighters.


Pint5) Ingo and Sonny Banks were such different fighters it's impossible to make any inferences from it.

[ThatOne]

The left hook was Ali's poison. The right , as you know, takes longer to deliver.

It's a myth that Ali only got caught with left hooks. Plenty of fighters landed right hands on him.

Well, yeah- If you are going to have over two hundred pro and amateur fights you are bound to have eaten a right or two.

But it was the lefts of Wepner, Banks, Frazier, and Cooper that dropped him and he was up immediately after all of them.

Ali easily, easily handled fighters with Cooper's style.

[ThatOne]

"The Ali that Johansson would have faced (well not exactly, as this was the Ali who fought Sonny Banks, and Ali was 10-0-0), even five fights ahead could still be caught, Banks was a right hander as well."

homocidehenry


And the novice Ali responded splendidly to the knockdown.

Don't take my word for it but take the word of A.J. Liebling at ringside:


"Clay, I knew, had not been knocked down since his amateur days, but he was cool. He neither rushed after Banks like an angry kid . nor backed away from him.Standing straight up he boxed and moved. -cuff, slap, jab, and stick, the busy hands stinging like bees."

Interesting evidence that even the raw Ali didn't melt at the first hint of adversity.

[Ezzard]

It's a nice quote from Liebling and he obviously saw what Ali would later become.

I'm no longer sure where this argument is at, as the parameters seem to change every time I look at it.

It's not doing anyone any favours.

Is the latest strand how would Ali (on his pro debut) have done against Sonny Banks?

[HomicideHenry]

It's a nice quote from Liebling and he obviously saw what Ali would later become.

I'm no longer sure where this argument is at, as the parameters seem to change every time I look at it.

It's not doing anyone any favours.

Is the latest strand how would Ali (on his pro debut) have done against Sonny Banks?

Ali would have beaten Banks, he was a bum.

[ThatOne]

It's a nice quote from Liebling and he obviously saw what Ali would later become.

I'm no longer sure where this argument is at, as the parameters seem to change every time I look at it.

It's not doing anyone any favours.

Is the latest strand how would Ali (on his pro debut) have done against Sonny Banks?

No. Mr.Homocide Henry suggested that if Sonny Banks could drop Muhammad Ali so could Ingemarr Johannson. My retort was beside the fact that they were two very different fighters with different styles, Ali responded like a seasoned professional, at least according to Mr. Liebling.

Sonny Banks was fast !. I had to watch the video several times before I could even see the left.

Liebling also wrote of Ali "that he's the type of Hero who should be around for awhile."

It's nice to see an old achool boxing writer pay homage to Ali.

[ThatOne]

I have given this a lot of thought.

Ali fought as a professional sixty one times. Out of those sixty one fights I would have bet my life he would have won on all but three occasions and on only three occasions would the wrong pick cost me my life. I think you can figure out which fights they were and the one occasion where Ali won where I wouldn't have bet my life.

All that being said would anybody bet their life Ingemarr Johannson could have beat the 5-0 Muhammad Ali?

That means a raw Ali beating a prime Ingo is not inconceivable which was my original premise. By not inconceivable I mean it is not outside the realm of possibility. Sugar Ray Leonard once said "I can beat Mike Tyson." I am certain he meant it as a testament to the confidence he had in himself and I'm sure he believed it. That is outside the realm of possibility. A raw Ali beating a prime Ingo, imho, is not in that category of statement or outside the realm of possibility.

[HomicideHenry]

I would, because its something that has never been done before. Ali may be the greatest heavyweight that ever lived, but at 5-0-0, he was far from being the fighter he would grow to be. While I have agreed that its plausible, maybe even likely, that Ali could go 4 rounds with Johansson, I have also said in scenarios of 10, 12, and 15 round durations, that Ali more than likely would have lost to Johansson.

[Collins2000]

I would, because its something that has never been done before. Ali may be the greatest heavyweight that ever lived, but at 5-0-0, he was far from being the fighter he would grow to be. While I have agreed that its plausible, maybe even likely, that Ali could go 4 rounds with Johansson, I have also said in scenarios of 10, 12, and 15 round durations, that Ali more than likely would have lost to Johansson.

Didn't you claim you were bowing out of this thread back on page 1, Rufus?

You can't seem to get enough of it.

[HomicideHenry]

Are you stalking me Collins? Keeping tabs on every move I make?

[Collins2000]

Are you stalking me Collins? Keeping tabs on every move I make?

Er, no, Rufus. Should I be?

Have you been up to your old tricks on the other forum?

Hope it's nothing as bad that time you made that poster of Stacy's wife and his kids...

[HomicideHenry]

If you're referring to the TPS, then no. I havent been associated with the TPS for quite some time now.

[raylawpc]

The original postulate no longer exists.

The original postulate was that it is not inconceivable that a raw Ali could be competitive with a prime Ingemarr Johansson. It has now been changed to that it is not inconceivable that a raw Muhummad Ali easily beats Johannson. Nobody argued the latter.

This whole charade has been disrespectful to Muhummad Ali. All the evidence suggests the raw Ali didn't fear him. And Prime Ali would have literally broken Ingo's face if his corner or the referre didn't stop the fight by at the latest the sixth round.

Let's look at their common opponents. Ali easily beat Patterson. I don't want to hear about Floyd's bad back. He was a young man fighting in the prime of his career. To say Ingo struggled with Patterson is an understatement. Ingo lost to Brian London. Ali clowned Brian London and made him part of his highlight films:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU2YPXghFkU

If Johannson ever could beat Ali it would have been the raw Cassius Clay who was learning his craft or the done, past it, bloated Ali of Nassau, Bahamas who couldn't even run one mile.


When did a slow, European boxer, with a 72' reach ever give any version of Ali trouble?



Never, and he must have fought ten of them.

In fairness, Ingo was "kayoed" at the last second of the final round, he was saved by the bell, but did enough to garner the decision over London. Ingo then realized his career was over, and promptly retired. That was nearly 3 years after the fact of the sparring session with Clay. The same scenario happened to Clay, getting 'saved' by the bell against Henry Cooper. Cooper didnt have no long reach, yet 'The Hammer' landed flush---and dont give me the story of Ali looking at Elizabeth Taylor either!

AND....you finally admitted the green horn 5-0-0 Ali (who was learning his craft) would have LOST to Johansson! Thanks! That is all I needed to hear! DD Good day sir!

You are both wrong as to Johansson v. London. Johansson boxed a near shut-out and won a relatively easy decision. He was knocked down in the last seconds of the round, but up on his feet at the bell. As I recall, he was down for a court of four. The idea he was out cold on his back at the bell is an urban myth.