BoxRec

Norm, thanks for posting a ringside report and an inspector's report of the May 5, 1941 boxing card which took place in Billings, Montana. Man! Reading the ringside report does give one a chilling feeling considering the eventual fate of Johnny Marquez.

- Chuck Johnston

I don't blame Jack Dempsey or even Jack Kearns for the financial failure of the world heavyweight bout between Dempsey, the world heavyweight champion, and Tommy Gibbons, the challenger, at Shelby, Montana during 1923. A number of the key people involved in promoting the bout were not up to the task. Moreover, Shelby was a terrible venue to stage a world heavyweight bout at a time when the financial success of such a promotion was dependent on drawing a huge live gate.

Since Shelby is located in one of the most sparsely populated areas in a sparsely populated state, the success of the promotion was dependent on attracting alot of spectators who had to travel long distances to see the bout, a very tall order under the circumstances. It should also be pointed out that Montana was going through tough economic times, especially in the rural areas, during the 1920s. As a result, it was essential that the promotion attract many fans who lived outside of the state.

When the people involved in the promotion were unable to pay the installments of Jack Dempsey's $300,000. guarantee on time, there was some doubt that the bout was going to take place. This uncertainty resulted in many people being more reluctant to take a long train trip to Shelby, virtually dooming the success of the promotion.

All of Dempsey's other title bouts were financial successes. What such title bouts had in common was that they were staged in or near highly populated areas, especially the ones which drew million-dollar gates.

- Chuck Johnston

Chuck, I agree with you. My earlier reference I meant in the light of Dempsey having to "get outta Dodge" after making some money but I didn't separate it from the scam aspect properly. This was an overly ambitious promotion brought on by the headiness of the huge oil boom in the fields near Shelby. This article from a couple years ago attests to the long lasting bragging rights that still bring residuals into Shelby. The visionaries just missed the return on investment line by 80 years or so.

Perseverant Shelby rebuilds Champions Park
Story by Roman Stubbs | October 4, 2007
Montana Kaimin

After the 1923 Heavyweight Boxing Championship of the World, Tom Gibbons was bloodied, beaten. He had just sparred and lost in 15 rounds to the world’s most powerful puncher, Jack Dempsey, who simply hurt people in fights. Shelby, Mont., felt Gibbons’ pain. The fight had hurt them too, hurt them so bad.

“The fight really was very devastating to Shelby,” says Lorrette Carter, who is the town’s economic development director. “But for our community’s heritage to have the courage to initiate the fight of that magnitude and go after their dreams, that is what we want the Champions Park to show.”

Eighty-four years later, Carter and a committee of Shelby citizens are in the process of erecting Champions Park, which will be an interpretative historical center commemorating the 1923 Heavyweight Championship. Known as “The Fight that Won’t Stay Dead,” the bout not only brought Jack Dempsey to the Wild West, but also brought severe financial hardship to Shelby.

The story of Shelby’s most infamous date in history reads more like a work of fiction, a tale sending a legendary sporting icon to defend his boxing title in a hidden town in Northern Montana, where one of the world’s largest outdoor arenas awaited. It was too good to be true. Hemingway couldn’t have made this up.

Shelby had struck rich in 1922 after the discovery of oil, and had attracted 2,500 people to settle. When Jack Dempsey announced his intent to defend his title in 1923, two years after the “Fight of the Century,” major metropolitan promoters in Montreal lobbied to hold the fight for upward of $100,000. But a group of visionary Montana businessmen, led by Shelby tycoon James “Body” Johnson, saw an opportunity to expand their financial interests in Shelby by bringing in the Heavyweight Championship of the World, and offered Dempsey’s infamous manager, Jack Kearns, a $200,000 purse for Dempsey’s services. With the bid accepted, the prizefight was on, and Midwestern fighter Tom Gibbons was announced the challenger. In landing the fight, Shelby had high hopes of drawing nationwide interest in their economic commodities, as well as vast real estate opportunities.

But they were also getting to witness the world’s best brawler. Dempsey was a savage on canvas, nicknamed the “Manassa Mauler” for his classic bloody beat-downs of much bigger fighters such as Gunboat Smith and Jess Willard, none of whom ever went the distance with Dempsey. Of his 66 career wins, 51 came by knockout. He would battle Gibbons in Shelby’s homebuilt colossal 40,000-seat arena, which at the time was the largest outdoor stadium in the country. “This was amazing,” says Brian Kavanaugh, who is the publisher of several High-Line newspapers, and is Body Johnson’s distant nephew. “To get the title fight with Dempsey in Shelby, then have this arena built was incredible. But those were the expectations of the town. They thought they were going to fill that stadium.”

But if Shelby thought they were going to get what the Colosseum gave the Romans, they were terribly wrong. Kearns negotiated the bid up to $300,000, threatening to prevent Dempsey from fighting if there wasn’t an additional 100 grand on the table. While Shelby had already booked over $500,000 in nationwide ticket sales, Body Johnson was sent scrambling to come up with an additional $100,000, and missed a payment to Kearns, who said Dempsey wouldn’t fight. The trains sent the reservations back before Dempsey himself confirmed the fight would happen, money or no money.

“It broke the town,” Kavanaugh said. “There was a lot of turmoil for the city, but in the end they were put on the map by holding the Heavyweight Championship of the World.”

On July 4, 1923, only 8,000 people purchased tickets, and 4,000 more rushed the gates at the arena, witnessing the fight for free. Dempsey felt the wrath of Shelby’s debacle, and later spoke of it after the fight. “For the first and only time, I was more worried about getting hurt by the crowd than by the guy I was fighting. I got a pretty good blast when introduced. The crowd was hollering and raising hell. I looked around for my bodyguard, a colorful New York character named Wild Bill Lyons, who packed two pearl-handled pistols and used to talk a lot about his days in the West. Wild Bill was under the ring, hiding.” Dempsey fled with a victory and only a small percentage of his and Kearns’ intended profit. Four banks, including two in Shelby, went bankrupt a month after the fight. Shelby was hurt.

But they had still held the heavyweight championship, and there is pride in one of most sad, yet proud moments in Montana history.

“It wasn’t what it was supposed to be,” Carter said. “A lot of the older generation is embarrassed by what happened, but for the most part, we’re very proud that Shelby is what it is, which has a lot to do with the fight.”

Montana’s historical relevance of the fight is, quite frankly, as significant as Daly, Russell and Bannack. Even with the financial meltdown, it signified a chance to bring the world’s oldest sport, on the world’s biggest stage, to a small dusty town full of dreamers. It was a mythical chance for Shelby, Mont. But for Dempsey to come and do hand-to-hand combat in Northern Montana, two years removed from his epic “Fight of the Century” with Georges Carpentier, was even more mythical. Johnson and John Kavanaugh later wrote an account of the 1923 debacle in the book “The Fight That Won’t Stay Dead,” which captures the underlying theme of Shelby’s lofty economic expectations from the fight, and the crumbling thereafter.

“I think that book and the title show how this fight stood the test of time,” Kavanaugh said. “It really is an important moment in all of boxing history, and for Shelby, it’s a great source of pride.”
Maybe Dempsey was right. Maybe Shelby was upset about the disaster. And maybe Wild Bill was really hiding under the ring, smirking at how a small town in the Wild West had lost its mind, and its money.

But in the end, 85 years later, that same small town will get the last laugh. Champions Park will eventually rise, assuring a historical dilemma as a monumental landmark.
For Shelby, the fight that won’t stay dead, never hurt so good.

I can't think of another event which took place in Montana which generated more media coverage in the United States and the rest of the world than the world heavyweight bout between Jack Dempsey and Tommy Gibbons in Shelby. The amount of ink devoted to the bout was enormous.

With the exception of Gene Tunney, Tommy Gibbons was the most accomplished fighter on a pound-for-pound basis that Jack Dempsey faced in a world heavyweight title bout. While Gibbons may been a bit over-the-hill by the time he fought Dempsey and had lost handily to the great Harry Greb in a bout which took place in 1922, history would show that he remained one of the best fighters among the light-heavyweights and heavyweights at the time.

It should also be pointed out that Gibbons had a very competitive series of bouts with Greb at a time when both fighters were in their prime years for the most part. But the Gibbons-Greb series of bouts have been overshadowed in boxing history by the series bouts between Greb and Gene Tunney largely to due to the fact that Tunney later went on to win the world heavyweight title. In my opinion, that is unfortunate because Tunney was on the way up at the beginning while Greb was past his peak at the end, rendering their series of bouts less competitive than the ones involving Greb and Gibbons.

In a ten-round bout with Georges Carpentier which took place after his bout with Dempsey, Gibbons won handily, receiving the newspaper decision. I believe that Gibbons was a much better fighter than Carpentier, but the latter was far more charismatic, making him a bigger gate attraction.

- Chuck Johnston

July 4, 1923, Shelby Montana, (left to right) Jack Dempsey, referee James Dougherty, Tommy Gibbons, Eddie Kane(Gibbons' manager) and Jimmy Delaney (http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... &cat=boxer , one of Gibbons' sparring partners)

40,000 seat arena, built specifically for the Dempsey-Gibbons bout at a cost of $82,000 dominates Shelby landscape.

Blackfeet Indian encampment, north of the Great Northern railway tracks, was a colorful sight to visitors during the promotion of the fight. Note the arena in the background.

Dempsey poses with world famous cowboy artist Charles M. Russell. It was thought that Russell made several sketches of the camps and arena, but none have been found. Russell died in 1926.

8,000 paying fans, plus 4,000 gate crashers, left a lot of deadwood in the 40,000 seat arena.

Norm, thanks for posting the great pictures involving the bout between Jack Dempsey and Tommy Gibbons in Shelby. I have wondered what would have happened if the people involved in the promotion had plenty of money on hand to pay the installments of Dempsey's $300,000. guarantee on time. For sure, the promotion would have had a much better chance of being a financial success if that happened.

I did not know that Jimmy Delaney, a skillful boxer from Gibbons' hometown of St. Paul, Minnesota, was present when the Dempsey-Gibbons bout took place. According to what I have read, Delaney and Gibbons had similar boxing styles. Delaney had a very interesting career, but died due to blood poisoning while still in his twenties during 1927.

- Chuck Johnston

Norm wrote:Chuck, its pretty interesting cross-referencing and finding answers, am enjoying the age of information. The reason Irwin Thatch was familiar is that I attended the Rouse-Henry Hank bout in Missoula where Thatch was against Joe Hopkins on the undercard. The fight program states Thatch is 36-6 at this time. Boxing records are only as sketchy as a promotor's thoughts back then.

I have a recent photo of Foster I'll dig out and post soon.

Below is the Inspector's Report for one of the stops on Jack Dempsey's appearance tours. Blumenauer, in the main, had fought the night before in Billings, also a Dempsey ref job, and was at least his 3rd bout in five days. It was a complete sham, more like a traveling circus reminiscent of Dempsey's dash out of Shelby when he fought Gibbons in 1923. He had a fondness about Montana money. I'll post news articles too.



http://boxrec.com/show_display.php?show_id=517961

Norm: you entered only 4 of the 5 bouts of this show.

Chuck1052 wrote:Norm, thanks for posting the great pictures involving the bout between Jack Dempsey and Tommy Gibbons in Shelby. I have wondered what would have happened if the people involved in the promotion had plenty of money on hand to pay the installments of Dempsey's $300,000. guarantee on time. For sure, the promotion would have had a much better chance of being a financial success if that happened.

I did not know that Jimmy Delaney, a skillful boxer from Gibbons' hometown of St. Paul, Minnesota, was present when the Dempsey-Gibbons bout took place. According to what I have read, Delaney and Gibbons had similar boxing styles. Delaney had a very interesting career, but died due to blood poisoning while still in his twenties during 1927.

- Chuck Johnston

Jimmy Delaney was a sparring partner for Gene Tunney for the first Dempsey-Tunney fight.
I have film of him sparring with Tunney, as well as film of Tommy Loughran sparring with Dempsey.

I also have a number of rounds of the fight same day as Dempsey-Tunney I between Jimmy Delaney and Loughran.

Loughran is a very different fighter in that film than he was a little later, much more aggressive and appearing to throw harder punches than in later years.

granberry, thank you for the information about Jimmy Delaney, Gene Tunney and Tommy Loughran.

In regards to Delaney, did you know that he fought in Vernon, California (which is a very small municipality located a few miles south of the downtown area of Los Angeles) on a Tuesday and in Oakland the next day during the early 1920s? Delaney's party traveled by automobile to Oakland after his bout in Vernon, a trip of over four hundred miles over some very rugged terrain when the paved roads and automobiles were far less than optimal by modern standards. Since it was reported that the party traveled continuously, apparently encountering some rain, after leaving Vernon on Tuesday night and arriving in Oakland late in the afternoon on Wednesday, I have some doubts that Delaney was well-rested by the time he fought on Wednesday night.

- Chuck Johnston

Ric wrote:

Norm wrote:
Below is the Inspector's Report for one of the stops on Jack Dempsey's appearance tours. Blumenauer, in the main, had fought the night before in Billings, also a Dempsey ref job, and was at least his 3rd bout in five days. It was a complete sham, more like a traveling circus reminiscent of Dempsey's dash out of Shelby when he fought Gibbons in 1923. He had a fondness about Montana money. I'll post news articles too.

http://boxrec.com/show_display.php?show_id=517961

Norm: you entered only 4 of the 5 bouts of this show.

Yes, I've added it now. There is a discrepancy between the Inspector's report and news articles as to whether its Joe Dabella or Joe Abella for Parvis' opponent. I wasn't able to find further info, so added as Dabella w/note.

Chuck1052 wrote:granberry, thank you for the information about Jimmy Delaney, Gene Tunney and Tommy Loughran.

In regards to Delaney, did you know that he fought in Vernon, California (which is a very small municipality located a few miles south of the downtown area of Los Angeles) on a Tuesday and in Oakland the next day during the early 1920s? Delaney's party traveled by automobile to Oakland after his bout in Vernon, a trip of over four hundred miles over some very rugged terrain when the paved roads and automobiles were far less than optimal by modern standards. Since it was reported that the party traveled continuously, apparently encountering some rain, after leaving Vernon on Tuesday night and arriving in Oakland late in the afternoon on Wednesday, I have some doubts that Delaney was well-rested by the time he fought on Wednesday night.

- Chuck Johnston

I have NO doubts that Jimmy Delaney was NOT well rested when he fought the next night.

Look at Joe Gans' record for similar instances.

Norm wrote:

Ric wrote:

Norm wrote:
Below is the Inspector's Report for one of the stops on Jack Dempsey's appearance tours. Blumenauer, in the main, had fought the night before in Billings, also a Dempsey ref job, and was at least his 3rd bout in five days. It was a complete sham, more like a traveling circus reminiscent of Dempsey's dash out of Shelby when he fought Gibbons in 1923. He had a fondness about Montana money. I'll post news articles too.

http://boxrec.com/show_display.php?show_id=517961

Norm: you entered only 4 of the 5 bouts of this show.

Yes, I've added it now. There is a discrepancy between the Inspector's report and news articles as to whether its Joe Dabella or Joe Abella for Parvis' opponent. I wasn't able to find further info, so added as Dabella w/note.

I love how the Montana boxing inspectors are still using a 1920s form for these 1940s shows, and merely crossing out the "2" and inserting a "4".

Ric wrote:

Norm wrote:

Ric wrote: Norm: you entered only 4 of the 5 bouts of this show.

Yes, I've added it now. There is a discrepancy between the Inspector's report and news articles as to whether its Joe Dabella or Joe Abella for Parvis' opponent. I wasn't able to find further info, so added as Dabella w/note.

I love how the Montana boxing inspectors are still using a 1920s form for these 1940s shows, and merely crossing out the "2" and inserting a "4".

Yep, and they sometimes pealed off the carbon duplicate page to use for original reports and included comments asking how to get additional forms. And considering the medical reports that were a separate form, there was a lot of paper work they carried out diligently for the most part.

In regards to Jack Dempsey's tour in Montana during 1940, I noticed that Jack Kearns apparently was working with the "Manassa Mauler" again despite their acrimonious breakup during the 1920s. Of course, it appears that the 1940 tour wasn't generating that much money if the show in Great Falls was a typical one.

By the way, Dempsey also made appearances in Montana while on the vaudeville circuit a year or two before his fight with Tommy Gibbons took place. While looking for boxing results in the Great Falls Tribune on micro-film, I saw coverage about his Great Falls appearance. According to what I have read, Dempsey was a terrific draw on the vaudeville circuit during the 1920s, much better than Babe Ruth in that regard.

Dempsey's exhibition tour of the early 1930s was a massive success at a time when so many American boxing clubs were having a very tough time of it. By the way, Joe Louis drew huge crowds in spite of the Great Depression, not because of it. In fact, I think that the fans of the 1920s would have turned out in large numbers to see a dynamic fighter like Joe Louis despite the color barriers. After all, Harry Wills, a far less exciting fighter than Louis, drew some large crowds during the 1920s.

- Chuck Johnston

Chuck1052 wrote:In regards to Jack Dempsey's tour in Montana during 1940, I noticed that Jack Kearns apparently was working with the "Manassa Mauler" again despite their acrimonious breakup during the 1920s. . . .
- Chuck Johnston

Then later Kearns did his best to trash Dempsey with a Sports Illustrated article claiming Dempsey used loaded gloves.

A snake is a snake.

Heavyweight Joe Hipp was a native of the Blackfeet Reservation from Browning, Montana

Somebody here tell me about Maurice Thompson and Stanley Ketchel.

Why do I connect them with this area?

In the 1920 and 1930 U.S. Census, I found a copper miner named Maurice Thompson who was born in Michigan about 1884 and lived in his father-in-law's household in Butte, Montana.

I found it strange that Stanley Ketchell wasn't on Sports Illustrated's list of Montana's fifty greatest athletes about ten years. While living in Butte, Ketchell started his boxing career and had a majority of his bouts. In fact, I think that a very good case can be made that he was Montana's greatest athlete even if he was born in Michigan.

- Chuck Johnston

Chuck1052 wrote:

I did not know that Jimmy Delaney, a skillful boxer from Gibbons' hometown of St. Paul, Minnesota, was present when the Dempsey-Gibbons bout took place. According to what I have read, Delaney and Gibbons had similar boxing styles. Delaney had a very interesting career, but died due to blood poisoning while still in his twenties during 1927.

- Chuck Johnston

Delaney had quite a career i wasn't familiar with until looking through the images. He'd lost a 10 round decision to Gene Tunney several weeks prior to sparring with Gibbons in preparation for the Dempsey bout.



Gibbons and sparring partner Jimmy Delaney pose at Gibbons' training camp in Shelby.

Among Jack Dempsey's sparring partners at his Great Falls training camp was "Black Shadow of Leiperville" George Godfrey.
http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... &cat=boxer