Who influenced the popularity of boxing the most?

[yancey]

"If you have to explain something so basic to someone as the difference in media outlets & technology, Ezz, that should be your red flag right there that the person isn't worth wasting the time on." Goodnight, Irene




Sounds like an empirically obvious statement to me.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"...You can also watch the documentary "When We Were Kings" and see him being mobbed at the airport." - ThatOne

Oh, no...No, no, no, no no!

[Goodnight, Irene]

"...With that, Ali turned pensive and lectured, with some exaggeration, on the harsh realities of life back home. "In America," he said, "everything is white—Jesus, Moses and the angels. I'm glad to be here with my true people." - ThatOne

Cringe-worthy. I can only imagine how obnoxious Ali would sound, as an American, complaining to native Afrikaans about American life. American life as a celebrity, no less.

Rather like the wealthy man lamenting his steak being underdone to the destitute.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"If you have to explain something so basic to someone as the difference in media outlets & technology, Ezz, that should be your red flag right there that the person isn't worth wasting the time on." Goodnight, Irene




Sounds like an empirically obvious statement to me.

You'd think so, but...

[BoxBuzz]

I'm not certain but this may help.

Babe Ruth....Iconic figure of sports.....as big as Ali? For our nation? I'll be kind to G.I. and say "Yes". And Dempsey was just as big a name as Ruth.

And, in those times, American Sports was covered world wide, albeit newspaper vs instant media. They were perhaps simpler times and hero's were sometimes simply given status on pure sport "performance". Times changed and in later days in order for one to "transcend" their sport they must be "multidimensional" I suppose. Louis perhaps being the first to attain this 'multi dimensional" status. Schmeling might also fit this catagory, both taking on (through no intent of their own) perhaps more baggage than just 'sports heroism".

So I have to say it's a much more convoluted call than either side wants to admit.

Ali AND O.J. were both bigger than their sport due to "unusual circumstances". I have to add that Ali's incidental fame was far more positive that O'J's but I would say that O.J.'s escapades were internationally followed and he became almost as recognized. Hitler and Jesus come to mind here.....OK I'm pushing the parameters but I trust you get my drift.

Fame and Infamy are VERY close cousins. Dempsey's fame was one dimensional when one dimensional was perhaps far more acceptable. We now demand intrigue and complexity to go along with our most iconic figures. Tiger Woods only got REALLY interesting to folks when golf was no longer what his name was associated with. We seem hell bent on forcing ourselves to focus on failings rather than achievement nowadays. I'm not sure it's good or bad, just the "latest trend". Personally I will be happy if/when we can go back to giving credit to greatness for greatness sake, and assume that any human regardless of what barrier they have overcome is to be celebrated for that which they do that is remarkable....and sort of assume that this same person probably has some equally remarkable failing....and we simply become bored with that aspect. As we seemed to be in Babe Ruth's day. A man who could swat the ball very nicely.....and had some huge failings that maybe we could just forget about. (Ty Cobb comes to mind).

(Sorry G.I. that was the "Bells and Whistles Express" I suppose.

[ThatOne]

"...With that, Ali turned pensive and lectured, with some exaggeration, on the harsh realities of life back home. "In America," he said, "everything is white—Jesus, Moses and the angels. I'm glad to be here with my true people." - ThatOne

Cringe-worthy. I can only imagine how obnoxious Ali would sound, as an American, complaining to native Afrikaans about American life. American life as a celebrity, no less.

Rather like the wealthy man lamenting his steak being underdone to the destitute.

It was 1964. Landmark civil rights legislation had not been passed. That meant despite his celebrity status Ali could be refused service at a restaurant, denied lodging, consigned to a separate restroom, and not vote in the land of his birth.

As Chairman Mao said "before you speak, investigate."

[ThatOne]

"If you have to explain something so basic to someone as the difference in media outlets & technology, Ezz, that should be your red flag right there that the person isn't worth wasting the time on." Goodnight, Irene




Sounds like an empirically obvious statement to me.

You'd think so, but...

Too bad you and yancey are laboring under the delusion that you defeated the point you and him thought I made and not the point I did make.

Jack Dempsey was a hero to white Europeans and their progeny. To use a colloquialism people in the developing world probably would not have given a rat's ass who he was even if they had the means to be aware of him. Muhammad Ali, on the other hand, because of his embrace of Islam, his involvement in the Pan African movement abroad , his open defiance of the United States government , and his involvement in the black nationalist movement at home was a global icon.

[BoxBuzz]

That One...your point is not lost. At least on this reader.

[ThatOne]

That One...your point is not lost. At least on this reader.

I am trying to think of athletes who transcended their sport. Jim Brown comes to mind because of his activism but I doubt the great running back is well known beyond our shores.

[ThatOne]

"...You can also watch the documentary "When We Were Kings" and see him being mobbed at the airport." - ThatOne

Oh, no...No, no, no, no no!

I was responding to the poster who suggested that when Muhammad Ali arrived in Zaire, many Zaireans didn't know he was; a point that was easily, easily defeated but you knew that.

[BoxBuzz]

Though I understand, I do believe you are a captive of "time", and can not fully appreciate the world as it was. Before "all things instant". Souls were stirred perhaps more slowly, but certainly more deeply.

So I don't agree with your attempt to separate his fame from others who for their time could be considered his equal. Pele (did I spell that right?) is another equal that it might be difficult to understand due not to "time" but to "culture". His fame was another who could likely be considered Ali's peer.

[ThatOne]

Though I understand, I do believe you are a captive of "time", and can not fully appreciate the world as it was. Before "all things instant". Souls were stirred perhaps more slowly, but certainly more deeply.

So I don't agree with your attempt to separate his fame from others who for their time could be considered his equal. Pele (did I spell that right?) is another equal that it might be difficult to understand due not to "time" but to "culture". His fame was another who could likely be considered Ali's peer.

Respectfully Pele was a great soccer player; Muhammad Ali was a social, political, and cultural force. I don't remember presidents and potentates from Gerald Ford, George Bush, and Bill Clinton to Leonid Brezhnev and Fidel Castro clamoring to meet Pele.

[BoxBuzz]

You don't remember.....because you once knew and then forgot? Because you "sense" it never happened? Or because you were never brought to awareness of the facts?

Dempsey was sought out by political leaders
Louis was sought out by political leaders
Braddock was sought out by political leaders
Schmeling was sought out by political leaders
Ali was sought out by political leaders
Pele was sought out by political leaders.

Political leaders are a parasite that will latch on to any and all "real" people for whatever possible blood they can extract. Great and wonderful people are nothing more than grist for their mill, in most cases. Was Ali used by these sorts to a greater extent than the others? I think you may make a case for that in terms of geographical variety. But perhaps not in "real power" exploitation. Trust me Dempsey, Louis and Braddock and Schmeling were used in similar manners. The fact that they were used by a less diverse group does not make their exploitation "less". And if you think it worked the other way around? That these famous folks were perhaps pulling the politician's strings? LOL....Well...........So did I when I was younger.

It's a very interesting topic. And I don't claim to be right....I just claim my own opinion.

[hitman09]

Though I understand, I do believe you are a captive of "time", and can not fully appreciate the world as it was. Before "all things instant". Souls were stirred perhaps more slowly, but certainly more deeply.

So I don't agree with your attempt to separate his fame from others who for their time could be considered his equal. Pele (did I spell that right?) is another equal that it might be difficult to understand due not to "time" but to "culture". His fame was another who could likely be considered Ali's peer.

Respectfully Pele was a great soccer player; Muhammad Ali was a social, political, and cultural force. I don't remember presidents and potentates from Gerald Ford, George Bush, and Bill Clinton to Leonid Brezhnev and Fidel Castro clamoring to meet Pele.

They stopped a civil war in Nigeria just so Pele could play. He met every head of state in Europe and North America at some point from the late 50s to 70s. He was the most famous sportsman on earth, even more than Ali, especially before Ali's comeback.

[BoxBuzz]

Thanks Hitman, I think you've capture a bit of truth in a jar with that statement.

[ThatOne]

We are getting a bit far afield as the title of this topic was "Who influenced the popularity of boxing the most?"

However I stand by my assertion that Muhammad Ali is the most famous athlete to have ever lived and one of the most important people of the twentieth century, ergo:


http://205.188.238.181/time/time100/leaders/index.html

[ThatOne]

We are getting a bit far afield as the title of this topic was "Who influenced the popularity of boxing the most?"

However I stand by my assertion that Muhammad Ali is the most famous athlete to have ever lived and one of the most important people of the twentieth century, ergo:


http://205.188.238.181/time/time100/leaders/index.html

An American magazine though? What do you think Brazil's equivalent would say?

I 'll get back to you on that one.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Dempsey, he was so popular and beloved he didn't even have to fight. And that's not a crack at Jack, it's the truth. He was the first mega star in the sport and I have to put him above the guys that took the torch later.

Jack had gate records for decades after he had retired.

[Brutu]

John L. Sullivan was the first newspaper sports hero.
Jim J. Corbett was the first film star.
Jack Dempsey was the first sports star to to fight on a live radio broadcast.
Max Baer was first star heavyweight to fight on a live television transmission(NBC in USA).
Joe Louis first heavyweight champion to defend title on live television(NBC USA).
Joe Louis first star hwy to fight on commercial closed-circuit theater(East coast cities).

[Brutu]

"...You can also watch the documentary "When We Were Kings" and see him being mobbed at the airport." - ThatOne

Oh, no...No, no, no, no no!

I was responding to the poster who suggested that when Muhammad Ali arrived in Zaire, many Zaireans didn't know he was; a point that was easily, easily defeated but you knew that.

Im sure the dictators all had and could afford there own personal satellite dishes,so they could watch live sports shows but what about the average Zaire citizen?
The dicktator probably ordered all of the local citizens to go greet Ali at the airport whether they knew who he was or not.
or else.

[Brutu]

I know James Brown was big through out Africa in the early 1970's.

[Brutu]

Well like was said earlier, the more mass communications improve and grow over the decades .
the larger a celebrity becomes through out the world.
I mean even the sham whammy guy is a celebrity now.
You think Paris Hilton or Ryan Seacrest would have been big celebrities back in 1975?
I dont think so.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Dempsey, he was so popular and beloved he didn't even have to fight. And that's not a crack at Jack, it's the truth. He was the first mega star in the sport and I have to put him above the guys that took the torch later.

Jack had gate records for decades after he had retired.

But boxing was different then, you can't honestly believe he was more famous than Ali.

I can't? All of this talk about technology is fine and dandy. It also means there are a lot more fish in that pond. Dempsey was a massive, massive star and where does this thread ask who was the most famous fighter?

Let me know the next time Muhammad Ali fights in front of 120,000 fans. Jack almost earned 3/4 of a million dollars in the 20's. Think about that for a second. Dempsey is when the sport hit the airwaves and it's when people started getting paid.

That's when the sport blew up and while I don't think he was as great as many others do. he was unquestionably every bit as popular as any fighter who ever laced up the gloves and you can't possibly tell me that he isn't a valid answer for who advanced Boxing's popularity the most.

[Panzerfaust]

Jack Dempsey certainly reflected the time he fought in atleast in the us. Jack Dempsey and the roaring 20s

[Goodnight, Irene]

"...With that, Ali turned pensive and lectured, with some exaggeration, on the harsh realities of life back home. "In America," he said, "everything is white—Jesus, Moses and the angels. I'm glad to be here with my true people." - ThatOne

Cringe-worthy. I can only imagine how obnoxious Ali would sound, as an American, complaining to native Afrikaans about American life. American life as a celebrity, no less.

Rather like the wealthy man lamenting his steak being underdone to the destitute.

It was 1964. Landmark civil rights legislation had not been passed. That meant despite his celebrity status Ali could be refused service at a restaurant, denied lodging, consigned to a separate restroom, and not vote in the land of his birth.

As Chairman Mao said "before you speak, investigate."

Native Africans have never been able to live without their restaurants, as we are all well aware. LOL. No one ever kept them from their mudhut, refused their right to piss in a ditch, os proudly take a beating from political forces for their troubles, either.

How they must have wept for Ali.