BoxRec

dempseyfire wrote:I don't think you can say Ruddock or Holyfield were 'shot' when Lewis fought them, although EVander was not anywhere near his prime and well past his best (Evander's prime ended after the Bowe rematch IMO, and you could even argue after the first Bowe fight).

Ruddock definetly was. Although we had no way of knowing until he went into the fight and his legs were all over the place and he didnt throw even one smash! His confidence was dead.
He was never again even half the man he had been with Tyson and before.

I concur with taking evander as "well past his best" than shot overall. Although I still think the Holy who fought Lewis was so far removed in terms of workrate,stamina,speed from the 87-92 version that I would very well say he was shot. Would a Vaughn Bean (as tough as he was) have really gone the distance with a prime Holyfield?

mugabi wrote:Would a Vaughn Bean (as tough as he was) have really gone the distance with a prime Holyfield?

Holyfield was no KO expert at Heavyweight though, would you evern expert a prime Holyfield to brutally knock Bean out?

Some of the smaller heavyweights from the golden age.... such as Dempsey.
Now if you put a 195lb Dempsey in with a 245lb Lewis.... i dont think there is the weight or power there to KO Lewis.
Sure Dempsey is way ahead of McCall or a Rahman.... but theres going to be a differnence in power between a 240lb super heavyweight and a 195lb Cruiserweight (by todays standards).

How about Jones vs Ruiz? Sure Jones outclassed Ruiz but he was nowhere near knocking him out

I dont buy any of these sub-200lb guys actually knocking Lewis out.

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:Some of the smaller heavyweights from the golden age.... such as Dempsey.
Now if you put a 195lb Dempsey in with a 245lb Lewis.... i dont think there is the weight or power there to KO Lewis.
Sure Dempsey is way ahead of McCall or a Rahman.... but theres going to be a differnence in power between a 240lb super heavyweight and a 195lb Cruiserweight (by todays standards).

How about Jones vs Ruiz? Sure Jones outclassed Ruiz but he was nowhere near knocking him out

I dont buy any of these sub-200lb guys actually knocking Lewis out.

I share some of the sentiment BUT Holyfield hurt Lewis in their second fight. He also had enough to hurt Bowe and KO Tyson etc... And Holy was Crusieweight who bulked up - nothing any other fighter couldn't have done.

Haye has taken his power with him to HW.

Sometimes speed, accuracy and delivery can also make up, and better, the sheer mass of the puncher. The relative difference in power as a fighter moves from Feather-Light, Light-Welter, Welter-Middle, etc... is bigger than from 190-230.

I sometimes have that feeling that smaller men just couldn't do it. But Langford KO'd Wills even before 'modern' methods of bulking up.

I agree with Heartbreak_Kid. As Foreman showed Joe Frazier...and Bowe and Lewis showed Holyfield, more often than not size does matter.

Shazam! wrote:I agree with Heartbreak_Kid. As Foreman showed Joe Frazier...and Bowe and Lewis showed Holyfield, more often than not size does matter.

But Ali couldn't stop a prime Frazier. Holyfield was the first man to drop Bowe and should have finished him. And Holy didn't lose to Lewis because of size. He lost because he was too old to set the kind of pace that he used to set.

Dempsey also KO'd much bigger men, as did Louis... And Haye is a Cruiser on supplements.

I'm not saying size doesn't matter, but I am saying that it's far less definitive than is being suggested.

Holyfield lost twice to Bowe and Frazier lost twice to Ali. Hence the term 'more often than not'.

Shazam! wrote:Holyfield lost twice to Bowe and Frazier lost twice to Ali. Hence the term 'more often than not'.

I believe age and career stage, wear and tear, etc... had more to do with that than size.

mugabi wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:I don't think you can say Ruddock or Holyfield were 'shot' when Lewis fought them, although EVander was not anywhere near his prime and well past his best (Evander's prime ended after the Bowe rematch IMO, and you could even argue after the first Bowe fight).

Ruddock definetly was. Although we had no way of knowing until he went into the fight and his legs were all over the place and he didnt throw even one smash! His confidence was dead.
He was never again even half the man he had been with Tyson and before.

I concur with taking evander as "well past his best" than shot overall. Although I still think the Holy who fought Lewis was so far removed in terms of workrate,stamina,speed from the 87-92 version that I would very well say he was shot. Would a Vaughn Bean (as tough as he was) have really gone the distance with a prime Holyfield?

Nonsense, Ruddock was the same fighter. Lewis was just more destructive than Tyson against that type of opponent. After Lennox thrashed him he was done. Not before.

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:

mugabi wrote:Would a Vaughn Bean (as tough as he was) have really gone the distance with a prime Holyfield?

Holyfield was no KO expert at Heavyweight though, would you evern expert a prime Holyfield to brutally knock Bean out?

Holyfield never liked fighting guys that didn't do anything. Evander liked to get cracked hard on the jaw to get his juices flowing. If not, he could sleepwalk like he did in the Stewart rematch.

If they fought early in his Heavyweight days he threw a lot more punches. But chances are Bean would last the distance anyway.

Lewis on the other hand would have been knocked out imo.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

mugabi wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:I don't think you can say Ruddock or Holyfield were 'shot' when Lewis fought them, although EVander was not anywhere near his prime and well past his best (Evander's prime ended after the Bowe rematch IMO, and you could even argue after the first Bowe fight).

Ruddock definetly was. Although we had no way of knowing until he went into the fight and his legs were all over the place and he didnt throw even one smash! His confidence was dead.
He was never again even half the man he had been with Tyson and before.

I concur with taking evander as "well past his best" than shot overall. Although I still think the Holy who fought Lewis was so far removed in terms of workrate,stamina,speed from the 87-92 version that I would very well say he was shot. Would a Vaughn Bean (as tough as he was) have really gone the distance with a prime Holyfield?

Nonsense, Ruddock was the same fighter. Lewis was just more destructive than Tyson against that type of opponent. After Lennox thrashed him he was done. Not before.

I agree. Lewis-Ruddock was a live fight going in. And how can you tell someone is 'shot' after a 2 minute blow out?

Shazam! wrote:I agree with Heartbreak_Kid. As Foreman showed Joe Frazier...and Bowe and Lewis showed Holyfield, more often than not size does matter.

Huh? Holfield beat Bowe in the rematch and if he hadn't been ill would've KO'd him in the rubber match (clearly sick he nearly did anyway)

I had an old EVander edging Lennox in their rematch.

Dempsey and Louis KO'd several Lennox-sized HWs BRUTALLY, and they were not bums.

You are seriously over-rating size, even though these 190-210 lb HWs of yesteryear were themselves BIG men who just came in lean and trim compared to the chubbymen of today. And Lewis in tip-top shape was about 235-240 and not the 250 he came in the latter part of his career. A 30 lb pull at HW is nothing to write him about and extremely common-place.

Ezzard wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

mugabi wrote: Ruddock definetly was. Although we had no way of knowing until he went into the fight and his legs were all over the place and he didnt throw even one smash! His confidence was dead.
He was never again even half the man he had been with Tyson and before.

I concur with taking evander as "well past his best" than shot overall. Although I still think the Holy who fought Lewis was so far removed in terms of workrate,stamina,speed from the 87-92 version that I would very well say he was shot. Would a Vaughn Bean (as tough as he was) have really gone the distance with a prime Holyfield?

Nonsense, Ruddock was the same fighter. Lewis was just more destructive than Tyson against that type of opponent. After Lennox thrashed him he was done. Not before.

I agree. Lewis-Ruddock was a live fight going in. And how can you tell someone is 'shot' after a 2 minute blow out?

I think Ruddock was favored by most pundits. I know he was by me.

dempseyfire wrote:

Shazam! wrote:I agree with Heartbreak_Kid. As Foreman showed Joe Frazier...and Bowe and Lewis showed Holyfield, more often than not size does matter.

Huh? Holfield beat Bowe in the rematch and if he hadn't been ill would've KO'd him in the rubber match (clearly sick he nearly did anyway)

I had an old EVander edging Lennox in their rematch.

Dempsey and Louis KO'd several Lennox-sized HWs BRUTALLY, and they were not bums.

You are seriously over-rating size, even though these 190-210 lb HWs of yesteryear were themselves BIG men who just came in lean and trim compared to the chubbymen of today. And Lewis in tip-top shape was about 235-240 and not the 250 he came in the latter part of his career. A 30 lb pull at HW is nothing to write him about and extremely common-place.

It's gotten to the point where my dream fight is becoming Louis/Wlad. Just so i can go on message boards after 4 minutes and thirty seconds of violence and say I told you so.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Ezzard wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
Nonsense, Ruddock was the same fighter. Lewis was just more destructive than Tyson against that type of opponent. After Lennox thrashed him he was done. Not before.

I agree. Lewis-Ruddock was a live fight going in. And how can you tell someone is 'shot' after a 2 minute blow out?

I think Ruddock was favored by most pundits. I know he was by me.

Lewis was untested and Ruddock was considered a very solid contender who was the kind of fighter who could wreck a prospect's career.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

Shazam! wrote:I agree with Heartbreak_Kid. As Foreman showed Joe Frazier...and Bowe and Lewis showed Holyfield, more often than not size does matter.

Huh? Holfield beat Bowe in the rematch and if he hadn't been ill would've KO'd him in the rubber match (clearly sick he nearly did anyway)

I had an old EVander edging Lennox in their rematch.

Dempsey and Louis KO'd several Lennox-sized HWs BRUTALLY, and they were not bums.

You are seriously over-rating size, even though these 190-210 lb HWs of yesteryear were themselves BIG men who just came in lean and trim compared to the chubbymen of today. And Lewis in tip-top shape was about 235-240 and not the 250 he came in the latter part of his career. A 30 lb pull at HW is nothing to write him about and extremely common-place.

It's gotten to the point where my dream fight is becoming Louis/Wlad. Just so i can go on message boards after 4 minutes and thirty seconds of violence and say I told you so.

You've got a mean streak....

I rate Wlad. But to think he wouldn't be minced by Louis...

Maybe we'll get to see Haye pull a similar trick???

Ezzard wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

dempseyfire wrote: Huh? Holfield beat Bowe in the rematch and if he hadn't been ill would've KO'd him in the rubber match (clearly sick he nearly did anyway)

I had an old EVander edging Lennox in their rematch.

Dempsey and Louis KO'd several Lennox-sized HWs BRUTALLY, and they were not bums.

You are seriously over-rating size, even though these 190-210 lb HWs of yesteryear were themselves BIG men who just came in lean and trim compared to the chubbymen of today. And Lewis in tip-top shape was about 235-240 and not the 250 he came in the latter part of his career. A 30 lb pull at HW is nothing to write him about and extremely common-place.

It's gotten to the point where my dream fight is becoming Louis/Wlad. Just so i can go on message boards after 4 minutes and thirty seconds of violence and say I told you so.

You've got a mean streak....

I rate Wlad. But to think he wouldn't be minced by Louis...

Maybe we'll get to see Haye pull a similar trick???

I think haye beats either of them, I know Joe would.

dempseyfire wrote: You are seriously over-rating size, even though these 190-210 lb HWs of yesteryear were themselves BIG men who just came in lean and trim compared to the chubbymen of today. And Lewis in tip-top shape was about 235-240 and not the 250 he came in the latter part of his career. A 30 lb pull at HW is nothing to write him about and extremely common-place.

30lbs? I'm talking 50lbs!!!
245 minus 195 as specified is 50.

And remember Lewis is a big man WITH impressive skills.
Lewis was no Primo Carnera

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:Some of the smaller heavyweights from the golden age.... such as Dempsey.
Now if you put a 195lb Dempsey in with a 245lb Lewis.... i dont think there is the weight or power there to KO Lewis.
Sure Dempsey is way ahead of McCall or a Rahman.... but theres going to be a differnence in power between a 240lb super heavyweight and a 195lb Cruiserweight (by todays standards).

How about Jones vs Ruiz? Sure Jones outclassed Ruiz but he was nowhere near knocking him out

I dont buy any of these sub-200lb guys actually knocking Lewis out.

It never ceases to astonish me how many people out there will cite the size of Bowe, Lewis & co. as, "too much" for Dempsey. Apparently, these people have never seen Dempsey fight.

dempsey fan, how about an excuse for Big George's annihilation of Joe Frazier?

Digressing, yes, Ruddock was the favourite with many bookies for his fight with Lewis. And yes, he did fight a very strangely subdued fight. Is it a coincidence that this often happened to fighters getting in the ring with Lewis? David Tua looked a shell of himself against Lewis. Akinwande strangely bear hugged him the whole fight and basically tried to get himself DQed after Lewis came out very quick and aggressive...and Oliver McCall just stood there and cried his eyes out.

You can call it a conspiracy, or just acknowledge that facing Lewis was a very intimidating prospect.

No one REALLY thought Rahman or McCall were gonna win their rematches. Is it not widely accepted that a focused, aggressive Lewis is a nightmare for anyone.

His only ever real weakness was complacency. The only person that could really beat Lewis was Lewis.

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:

dempseyfire wrote: You are seriously over-rating size, even though these 190-210 lb HWs of yesteryear were themselves BIG men who just came in lean and trim compared to the chubbymen of today. And Lewis in tip-top shape was about 235-240 and not the 250 he came in the latter part of his career. A 30 lb pull at HW is nothing to write him about and extremely common-place.

30lbs? I'm talking 50lbs!!!
245 minus 195 as specified is 50.

And remember Lewis is a big man WITH impressive skills.
Lewis was no Primo Carnera

I'd favor Lennox, but Dempsey definitely had enough power to take him out. I've seen Lennox felled by single overhand rights twice. You can't count out anyone with Jack's speed and power regardless of the weight. Dempsey wasn't without his defensive prowess either, slip a lazy jab and BOOM. Don't fool yourself, it could happen.

Shazam! wrote:dempsey fan, how about an excuse for Big George's annihilation of Joe Frazier?

Digressing, yes, Ruddock was the favourite with many bookies for his fight with Lewis. And yes, he did fight a very strangely subdued fight. Is it a coincidence that this often happened to fighters getting in the ring with Lewis? David Tua looked a shell of himself against Lewis. Akinwande strangely bear hugged him the whole fight and basically tried to get himself DQed after Lewis came out very quick and aggressive...and Oliver McCall just stood there and cried his eyes out.

You can call it a conspiracy, or just acknowledge that facing Lewis was a very intimidating prospect.

No one REALLY thought Rahman or McCall were gonna win their rematches. Is it not widely accepted that a focused, aggressive Lewis is a nightmare for anyone.

His only ever real weakness was complacency. The only person that could really beat Lewis was Lewis.

You are over-rating Lewis if you truly think the only one capable of beating him was himself.

No, my only real point is that he lost twice to guys he would beat 9 times out of 10. In his career, which aside from those losses, he dominated the HW division for 14 years, the only reason he lost two fights were because he underprepared and was complacent. There were two Lennox's ya see! The Killer...and Mr Mellow. D

Although if I'm honest the Mercer fight should probably have been a draw.

Shazam! wrote:No, my only real point is that he lost twice to guys he would beat 9 times out of 10. In his career, which aside from those losses, he dominated the HW division for 14 years, the only reason he lost two fights were because he underprepared and was complacent. There were two Lennox's ya see! The Killer...and Mr Mellow. D

Although if I'm honest the Mercer fight should probably have been a draw.

I'll actually defend Lewis on this one point --- he gets way, way too much criticism for being, "complacent." That's overblown.

You don't see a different fighter in the first and second Rahman matches? Cus I do. Rahman was a HUGE underdog and Lennox is pretty widely acknowledged in boxing circles as not being the most consistently disciplined trainer shall we say. No way he was getting hit with that bomb a second time.