BoxRec

Frazier just didn't have the conditioning or ticker in the end to stay with Sonny

the stare down would've been good! liston would've had far too much firepower and would've got joe pretty much like foreman did; though i don't see as many knockdowns. liston could really punch left and right, up and down; his shots were not hard pushes, they whacked. joe frazier would've taken what he could and kept on throwing but this is 3 round fight, tops.

simon fox wrote:the stare down would've been good! liston would've had far too much firepower and would've got joe pretty much like foreman did; though i don't see as many knockdowns. liston could really punch left and right, up and down; his shots were not hard pushes, they whacked. joe frazier would've taken what he could and kept on throwing but this is 3 round fight, tops.

"hard pushes"?

"hard pushes", you say??

Irene can tell you all about that.

That was the specialty of his hero.

simon fox wrote:the stare down would've been good! liston would've had far too much firepower and would've got joe pretty much like foreman did; though i don't see as many knockdowns. liston could really punch left and right, up and down; his shots were not hard pushes, they whacked. joe frazier would've taken what he could and kept on throwing but this is 3 round fight, tops.

"3 round fight, tops"

I think you are WAY off being so definitive.

Sure, Sonny could get him early, but there is every bit the possibility Joe takes him deep, saps his will, and then punches his face in.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:As Dunphy once put it..."Sonny knows how to pour it on!"

Evidently knew how to fall down, too.

Joe gets hammered like he did against Foreman. 3 rounds max.

yancey wrote:

simon fox wrote:the stare down would've been good! liston would've had far too much firepower and would've got joe pretty much like foreman did; though i don't see as many knockdowns. liston could really punch left and right, up and down; his shots were not hard pushes, they whacked. joe frazier would've taken what he could and kept on throwing but this is 3 round fight, tops.

"hard pushes"?

"hard pushes", you say??

Irene can tell you all about that.

That was the specialty of his hero.

We won't talk about your hero hooking Ali's legs to slow him down...or the fact he could have used a third Boxing glove, on his head

yancey wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:As Dunphy once put it..."Sonny knows how to pour it on!"

Evidently knew how to fall down, too.

Glass houses, chappy. After all, only Patterson, uh...well, you know the rest, don't ya? 8)

btw, I always liked Sonny Liston and I know he had a terribly tough time growing up. He was always trying to win acceptance in a tough, unforgiving world. The President of the U.S. had apparently even requested that Patterson not give Sonny a shot at the title.

It had to have been a really sad moment for Sonny when he got off the plane in Philadelphia as the new champ expecting a large greeting at the airport and practically no one was there.

My concern with Liston are those two fights with Ali, especially the fiasco in Lewiston. He should have gone out on his sword, both times. The first Liston-Ali fight was one of my early sports memories. I listened on the radio to the fight that night as Rocky Marciano served as the color man.

You could hear in Rocky's voice that night the disappointment and chagrin that Liston as champ had quit on his stool.

yancey wrote:btw, I always liked Sonny Liston and I know he had a terribly tough time growing up. He was always trying to win acceptance in a tough, unforgiving world. The President of the U.S. had apparently even requested that Patterson not give Sonny a shot at the title.

It had to have been a really sad moment for Sonny when he got off the plane in Philadelphia as the new champ expecting a large greeting at the airport and practically no one was there.

My concern with Liston are those two fights with Ali, especially the fiasco in Lewiston. He should have gone out on his sword, both times. The first Liston-Ali fight was one of my early sports memories. I listened on the radio to the fight that night as Rocky Marciano served as the color man.

You could hear in Rocky's voice that night the disappointment and chagrin that Liston as champ had quit on his stool.

Don't feel too sorry for Liston. Ever read this guy's rap sheet? He would shiv you if you looked sideways at him.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

yancey wrote:btw, I always liked Sonny Liston and I know he had a terribly tough time growing up. He was always trying to win acceptance in a tough, unforgiving world. The President of the U.S. had apparently even requested that Patterson not give Sonny a shot at the title.

It had to have been a really sad moment for Sonny when he got off the plane in Philadelphia as the new champ expecting a large greeting at the airport and practically no one was there.

My concern with Liston are those two fights with Ali, especially the fiasco in Lewiston. He should have gone out on his sword, both times. The first Liston-Ali fight was one of my early sports memories. I listened on the radio to the fight that night as Rocky Marciano served as the color man.

You could hear in Rocky's voice that night the disappointment and chagrin that Liston as champ had quit on his stool.

Don't feel too sorry for Liston. Ever read this guy's rap sheet? He would shiv you if you looked sideways at him.

Really? When did Sonny ever shiv anyone in prison? I've never met anyone who actually knew Sonny Liston ever say anything bad about him.

raylawpc wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Don't feel too sorry for Liston. Ever read this guy's rap sheet? He would shiv you if you looked sideways at him.

Really? When did Sonny ever shiv anyone in prison? I've never met anyone who actually knew Sonny Liston ever say anything bad about him.

When have facts ever got in the way of bad-mouthing fighters in here?

Nobody mentioned prison.

I suggest you both take a long, hard look at the many Police reports filed on the young Liston --- this is not a sympathetic figure in realistic terms, the same way Tyson isn't.

Darling wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Don't feel too sorry for Liston. Ever read this guy's rap sheet? He would shiv you if you looked sideways at him.

Really? When did Sonny ever shiv anyone in prison? I've never met anyone who actually knew Sonny Liston ever say anything bad about him.

When have facts ever got in the way of bad-mouthing fighters in here?

I am not bad-mouthing a fighter. I am criticising a dangerous criminal.

I wouldn't expect the likes of you to make the distinction.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Nobody mentioned prison.

I suggest you both take a long, hard look at the many Police reports filed on the young Liston --- this is not a sympathetic figure in realistic terms, the same way Tyson isn't.

Wow, Irene, I'm impressed. I went downtown here in St. Louis to look at Liston's police record and I was told those records weren't readily available. How were you able to get them in Sydney?

I have a client whose granddad was a guard at Jeff City when Liston was an inmate there. He told my client that Liston was a well-behaved inmate.

Wonder why such a gentleman was even in there in the first place, huh? LOL.

If he had the same history, but wasn't a famous boxer, nobody would call him, "a tragic figure," for anything.

Keep on digging that hole, boy.

Darling wrote:Keep on digging that hole, boy.

Careful, now. We wouldn't want to see anything untoward happen to your latest iteration, Collie.

I have a feeling you're going to vindicate me sooner or later by proving an old dog never learns new tricks. You've been punted once, but you're the type of lad who takes a few kickings to get the message, aren't you?

Who's a good boy?

I never said he was a tragic figure. He was a crook. But that doesn't mean he ever tried to stab anybody as you claim.

Please tell me how you got those police reports. I'm interested how you could get them in Sydney when I couldn't here in St. Louis.

raylawpc wrote:I never said he was a tragic figure. He was a crook. But that doesn't mean he ever tried to stab anybody as you claim.

Please tell me how you got those police reports. I'm interested how you could get them in Sydney when I couldn't here in St. Louis.

I didn't claim that at all. I said he was the type of character who would. There are snippets of contemporaneous reports in previous publishings. Some were featured in Nick Tosches' The Devil & Sonny Liston. It doesn't mean whole reports are available, any more than saying someone is the type to shiv you means you are accusing them of literally having committed said act.

Sonny was a bad, bad dude. When you make your bed, you have to lie in it. If you want to sympathise with him, sure, be my guest --- I don't, & I have to question if you would were he not a legendary boxer.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

raylawpc wrote:I never said he was a tragic figure. He was a crook. But that doesn't mean he ever tried to stab anybody as you claim.

Please tell me how you got those police reports. I'm interested how you could get them in Sydney when I couldn't here in St. Louis.

I didn't claim that at all. I said he was the type of character who would. There are snippets of contemporaneous reports in previous publishings. Some were featured in Nick Tosches' The Devil & Sonny Liston. It doesn't mean whole reports are available, any more than saying someone is the type to shiv you means you are accusing them of literally having committed said act.

Sonny was a bad, bad dude. When you make your bed, you have to lie in it. If you want to sympathise with him, sure, be my guest --- I don't, & I have to question if you would were he not a legendary boxer.

Who is sympathizing with Liston? Not me, and I don't think Darling is either. In his youth, Sonny was a crook who robbed people at gun point and with his fists to steal their money. But unlike you I do not think he was a psychopath who was willing to shiv anyone who crossed him, which how you described him ("He would shiv you if you looked sideways at him.") The evidence doesn't support that interpretation, in my opinion.

Yep, he got caught up with the wrong crowd and did some of their bidding. Not sure it was his inherent nature. More like his talent for intimidation was recognized and exploited. I think he had the ability to be a bit scarey whether he wanted to be or not. Some wise guys recognized that....and did what wise guys do.

BoxBuzz wrote:Yep, he got caught up with the wrong crowd and did some of their bidding. Not sure it was his inherent nature. More like his talent for intimidation was recognized and exploited. I think he had the ability to be a bit scarey whether he wanted to be or not. Some wise guys recognized that....and did what wise guys do.

Or could it be he just made choices of his own?

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Yep, he got caught up with the wrong crowd and did some of their bidding. Not sure it was his inherent nature. More like his talent for intimidation was recognized and exploited. I think he had the ability to be a bit scarey whether he wanted to be or not. Some wise guys recognized that....and did what wise guys do.

Or could it be he just made choices of his own?

yup. I mean, as an uneducated Black man in 1950s america, well, the world was his oyster, wasn't it? Just oozing with choices for Sonny

i think the bolded bit in Buzz's post is most apt

Counter-puncher wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Yep, he got caught up with the wrong crowd and did some of their bidding. Not sure it was his inherent nature. More like his talent for intimidation was recognized and exploited. I think he had the ability to be a bit scarey whether he wanted to be or not. Some wise guys recognized that....and did what wise guys do.

Or could it be he just made choices of his own?

yup. I mean, as an uneducated Black man in 1950s america, well, the world was his oyster, wasn't it? Just oozing with choices for Sonny

i think the bolded bit in Buzz's post is most apt

There must of have been some other choices for Sonny. Armed robbery wasn't the only career path for the young Sonny Liston. I mean, not every uneducated burly young black man in the 1950s became an armed robber. As a youngster, Sonny was a sociopath. He may have gotten those tenancies under control in later life because people I have met who knew him as an adult actually liked him. But, that said, I do not think he was the lifelong psychopathic sadist described by Irene, a man willing to stab anyone who looked at him sideways.