Where do you rank Ali pound for pound all-time?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Is that really hard to grasp? He isn't in my top 10, but I'm not so arrogant as to think every place on my mythical list is etched in stone. There are guys that I can't see Ali in front of under any circumstances and I listed them. There are not 10 such guys. I think i made that quite clear, but if you need it spelled out again, so be it.

Wright, Terranova, Joyce, etc.. A lot of solid guys, Ali's resume is more top heavy than Pep's, that is true. Of course you were talking about dominance before and Pep was as dominant a fighter as there has ever been at his peak. He never fought Saddler in his prime and i rate sandy over any Ali opponent and I think Pep was the greater fighter skillwise. I have Pep over Ali pretty handily, same for Duran. But i can see the other side of that coin.

There is no argument for Ali over Greb, Robinson, Armstrong, Langford or Charles from my seat. As for nitpicky, I don't care about that. But you can at least read my posts. That would be helpful.

Edit: If Ali had over 200 fights odds are he would have been stopped far more times than Pep was.

[raylawpc]

On the otherhand Ali, unlike Pep, never came back from almost being killed in a plane crash.

[Goodnight, Irene]

On the otherhand Ali, unlike Pep, never came back from almost being killed in a plane crash.

Which is the point I was gonna make --- & the one Alp left out.

People, in general, still under-estimate that crash.

[Ezzard]

On the otherhand Ali, unlike Pep, never came back from almost being killed in a plane crash.

Which is the point I was gonna make --- & the one Alp left out.

People, in general, still under-estimate that crash.

What was it with boxers and plane crashes? Marciano, Pep, Cerdan...???

[tonyevs]

i'd rate Holyfield higher in the p4p rankings than Ali.

If you compared the level of opposition they both faced. I would put Holyfield as beating the better opposition without doubt.

Notable fights/wins:

Holyfield:
Qawi (2x)
Tillman
De Leon
Tillis (past-peak)
Thomas (past-prime)
Dokes
Stewart (2x)
Douglas (not even any where near his best)
Foreman (old)
B. Cooper (got rocked by him early and Bert only had 1-2 weeks notice for this fight)
Holmes (old)
Bowe
Mercer
Tyson (Mike hadn't been his-self since '88)
Lewis (lost first fight, but; apparently won the second - I haven't gotten around to watching it)
Ruiz (I scored the series 1-1-1, but; I don't think any of my cards agreed with the official cards)
Valuev (apparently Holyfield got jerked here - I haven't seen it)

Ali:
Moore (past-prime)
Jones
H. Cooper (2x)
Liston (2x - although the second fight is infamous for Liston's apparent dive)
Patterson (2x)
Chuvalo (2x)
C, Williams (around this time Williams was the definition of "damaged goods")
Terrell
Folley
Quarry (2x)
Bonavena
Frazier (2x)
Ellis
Mathis
M. Foster
B. Foster
Bugner
Norton (2x - although people have said that Norton deserved two of the three fights and not Ali)
Foreman
Lyle (Ali down on the scorecards kind of gets help from the referee when he questionably stops the fight)
J. Young (though people dispute over this fight as to who was the victor)
Shavers
L. Spinks

I'd say it's close, but; as far as resumes go, I'd give the slight edge to Ali. I defend Holyfield constantly and insist he belongs in the top ten (somewhee in the 5-8 spot), however; I can't see myself saying Holyfield had the better resume. (It's a damn shame Ali couldn't box from mid-late '67-'70, cause I'm sure he would have had an even better career).

The way that I see is. Ali`s best wins were over guys that would have lost to alot of the guys Holyfield beat.

Frazier wouldn`t have lasted too long against many of the guys Holyfield beat at heavy. Foreman mullered him....Mercer would have done the same ... and who can honestly say that the Bowe that Holyfield beat wasn`t far superior to anything Ali beat? and Holyfield stoof in front of Bowe to do it.

Holyfield is too often overlooked because he has boxed on for too long. Too many guys have beat the shell of Holyfield. But at his best he was one of the very best ever.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Ali was greater than Holyfield and I am possibly Evander's biggest fan on earth. However, Ali most certainly didn't face a prime Liston.

[Ambling Alp]

Is that really hard to grasp? He isn't in my top 10, but I'm not so arrogant as to think every place on my mythical list is etched in stone. There are guys that I can't see Ali in front of under any circumstances and I listed them. There are not 10 such guys. I think i made that quite clear, but if you need it spelled out again, so be it.

Wright, Terranova, Joyce, etc.. A lot of solid guys, Ali's resume is more top heavy than Pep's, that is true. Of course you were talking about dominance before and Pep was as dominant a fighter as there has ever been at his peak. He never fought Saddler in his prime and i rate sandy over any Ali opponent and I think Pep was the greater fighter skillwise. I have Pep over Ali pretty handily, same for Duran. But i can see the other side of that coin.

There is no argument for Ali over Greb, Robinson, Armstrong, Langford or Charles from my seat. As for nitpicky, I don't care about that. But you can at least read my posts. That would be helpful.

Edit: If Ali had over 200 fights odds are he would have been stopped far more times than Pep was.

I agree that Saddler was better than anyone that Ali beat. (I alluded to that in my last post.) However, ali's resume is not just "top heavy". Ali beat a lot of solid guys as well. In fact, he had more wins over top 10 contenders than Pep.
Pep was as dominaint as anyone during his peak? Well he was fighting 5 months after the plane crash. He fought 26 more times before fighting Saddler. He was considered as good as ever and was favored to beat Saddler. He was only 26 years old when he fought Saddler the first time.

If you are going to use that as an excuse than you have to consider that Ali missed more than 3 years of his prime. Amd no one won more than 3 rounds against a prime Ali.

If Ali had fought 200 times he would have been stopped more than Pep? Well he was a heavyweight and on average heavyweight fights are end in kos a lot more often than featherweights. However, if Ali would have you fought 200 nonames to Ali's record I'm quite sure that he would not have been stopped 6 times like Pep was.

Duran-Well of course he had the big win over Leonard. After that, once again a dramatic dropoff. Buchanan, DeJesus Palomino, Cuevas etc. doesn't exactly matchup to Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Norton, and Patterson.

Duran lost to DeJesus, quit against Leonard in one of the biggest fights of his life, was outboxed by Benitez, knocked out cold by Hearns. (This would be the part where the Duran fans come out with their excuses. )

Yes he had some nice wins over the veteran Davey Moore and the legendary Iran Barkley and a few others. And Ali beat Ellis, Terrell, Quarry, Shavers, Lyle, Bonavena,Bugner etc.

Ali fought in an extremely deep era his division. It was much, much deeper than the lightweight division that Duran dominated. Who could Ali have beat during the 1960s-mid 1970s to improve his resume?
(Duran could have gave Buchanan a rematch, took on Cervantes, not quit against Leonard, beat Benitez to improve his.)

If Ali would going to Panama and beating dozens of nobodies that would have added more wins to his record really meant that much to you?

I agree that guys like Greb, Langford, and Armstrong are underrated by many people. And Ali of course got a lot of attention. That does not mean he was not in their class as a fighter.

btw-I do read your posts. I have not been nasty toward you so I would hope you would not be that way towards me.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Have I been nasty? If so, I apologize. I never enjoy having words twisted around. Especially a single question of something that I never said. You just seem all hell bent on my placement of Ali. I have him in the top 15. I'm not condeming him in any way. I can't even believe you're still at it with me over it. When in the world did I say he wasn't in a fighters class? He clearly has an inferior resume to the guys I listed imo. And the fact that you haven't went into a breakdown leads me to believe you agree. So it's on and on with ones I find arguable? Why?

Again, Ali was very top Heavy. I think his prime was when he wasn't fighting, but that's just too bad. Was Doug jones before his prime? Because he most certainly won 3 rds.

Duran fought more soft touches and he also had way more fights. Leonard, Buchanan, Marcel, DeJesus, Palomino, barkley & Cuevas compare just fine with Foreman, frazier, Liston, Norton, Ellis, Quarry, Shavers.

Fighters like Lampkin, Viruet & moore were solid wins. Duran has enough resume to go with my considering him superior to Ali both offensively and defensively that it's not a tough call for me. If Duran retired after No mas he was still an all time great.

Like I said, I can see your point of view on Ali/Duran. I just don't agree with it.

As for Pep, you're the first person I've ever heard say he didn't lose anything after the accident. And for the 200 fights with Muhammad getting stopped more it had nothing to do with weight. Obviously Ali's body couldn't handle that kind of schedule. And if it did, there would be plenty more losses like leon Spinks or ones that could have been to Henry Cooper & Doug Jones. I wasn't making excuses, I think Willie was better. I also didn't find Ali to be greater pre layoff than he was post. I think prelayoff Ali would have been knocked cold in MSG for the first Frazier fight.

Who is next? Benny Leonard? Archie Moore?

[Goodnight, Irene]

Is that really hard to grasp? He isn't in my top 10, but I'm not so arrogant as to think every place on my mythical list is etched in stone. There are guys that I can't see Ali in front of under any circumstances and I listed them. There are not 10 such guys. I think i made that quite clear, but if you need it spelled out again, so be it.

Wright, Terranova, Joyce, etc.. A lot of solid guys, Ali's resume is more top heavy than Pep's, that is true. Of course you were talking about dominance before and Pep was as dominant a fighter as there has ever been at his peak. He never fought Saddler in his prime and i rate sandy over any Ali opponent and I think Pep was the greater fighter skillwise. I have Pep over Ali pretty handily, same for Duran. But i can see the other side of that coin.

There is no argument for Ali over Greb, Robinson, Armstrong, Langford or Charles from my seat. As for nitpicky, I don't care about that. But you can at least read my posts. That would be helpful.

Edit: If Ali had over 200 fights odds are he would have been stopped far more times than Pep was.

I agree that Saddler was better than anyone that Ali beat. (I alluded to that in my last post.) However, ali's resume is not just "top heavy". Ali beat a lot of solid guys as well. In fact, he had more wins over top 10 contenders than Pep.
Pep was as dominaint as anyone during his peak? Well he was fighting 5 months after the plane crash. He fought 26 more times before fighting Saddler. He was considered as good as ever and was favored to beat Saddler. He was only 26 years old when he fought Saddler the first time.

If you are going to use that as an excuse than you have to consider that Ali missed more than 3 years of his prime. Amd no one won more than 3 rounds against a prime Ali.

If Ali had fought 200 times he would have been stopped more than Pep? Well he was a heavyweight and on average heavyweight fights are end in kos a lot more often than featherweights. However, if Ali would have you fought 200 nonames to Ali's record I'm quite sure that he would not have been stopped 6 times like Pep was.

Duran-Well of course he had the big win over Leonard. After that, once again a dramatic dropoff. Buchanan, DeJesus Palomino, Cuevas etc. doesn't exactly matchup to Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Norton, and Patterson.

Duran lost to DeJesus, quit against Leonard in one of the biggest fights of his life, was outboxed by Benitez, knocked out cold by Hearns. (This would be the part where the Duran fans come out with their excuses. )

Yes he had some nice wins over the veteran Davey Moore and the legendary Iran Barkley and a few others. And Ali beat Ellis, Terrell, Quarry, Shavers, Lyle, Bonavena,Bugner etc.

Ali fought in an extremely deep era his division. It was much, much deeper than the lightweight division that Duran dominated. Who could Ali have beat during the 1960s-mid 1970s to improve his resume?
(Duran could have gave Buchanan a rematch, took on Cervantes, not quit against Leonard, beat Benitez to improve his.)

If Ali would going to Panama and beating dozens of nobodies that would have added more wins to his record really meant that much to you?

I agree that guys like Greb, Langford, and Armstrong are underrated by many people. And Ali of course got a lot of attention. That does not mean he was not in their class as a fighter.

btw-I do read your posts. I have not been nasty toward you so I would hope you would not be that way towards me.

In your devotion to Ali, you have simply lost the plot in trying to diminish the impact of Pep's plane crash.

It is beneath arguing, & Saad is being generous in taking it up, IMO.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Notable fights/wins:

Holyfield:
Qawi (2x)
Tillman
De Leon
Tillis (past-peak)
Thomas (past-prime)
Dokes
Stewart (2x)
Douglas (not even any where near his best)
Foreman (old)
B. Cooper (got rocked by him early and Bert only had 1-2 weeks notice for this fight)
Holmes (old)
Bowe
Mercer
Tyson (Mike hadn't been his-self since '88)
Lewis (lost first fight, but; apparently won the second - I haven't gotten around to watching it)
Ruiz (I scored the series 1-1-1, but; I don't think any of my cards agreed with the official cards)
Valuev (apparently Holyfield got jerked here - I haven't seen it)

Ali:
Moore (past-prime)
Jones
H. Cooper (2x)
Liston (2x - although the second fight is infamous for Liston's apparent dive)
Patterson (2x)
Chuvalo (2x)
C, Williams (around this time Williams was the definition of "damaged goods")
Terrell
Folley
Quarry (2x)
Bonavena
Frazier (2x)
Ellis
Mathis
M. Foster
B. Foster
Bugner
Norton (2x - although people have said that Norton deserved two of the three fights and not Ali)
Foreman
Lyle (Ali down on the scorecards kind of gets help from the referee when he questionably stops the fight)
J. Young (though people dispute over this fight as to who was the victor)
Shavers
L. Spinks

I'd say it's close, but; as far as resumes go, I'd give the slight edge to Ali. I defend Holyfield constantly and insist he belongs in the top ten (somewhee in the 5-8 spot), however; I can't see myself saying Holyfield had the better resume. (It's a damn shame Ali couldn't box from mid-late '67-'70, cause I'm sure he would have had an even better career).

The way that I see is. Ali`s best wins were over guys that would have lost to alot of the guys Holyfield beat.

Frazier wouldn`t have lasted too long against many of the guys Holyfield beat at heavy. Foreman mullered him....Mercer would have done the same ... and who can honestly say that the Bowe that Holyfield beat wasn`t far superior to anything Ali beat? and Holyfield stoof in front of Bowe to do it.

Holyfield is too often overlooked because he has boxed on for too long. Too many guys have beat the shell of Holyfield. But at his best he was one of the very best ever.

A prime Foreman would poop on Bowe. Bowe would be in a world of pain going against a prime Foreman. And a prime Frazier would easily out-point Mercer. Even Foreman admits that the Frazier he fought "was not the same Frazier two years ago. Where he would have had a very hard time with him." (Foreman himself says this in the documentary "Facing Ali").

Ali's best wins (besides Foreman and Frazier):
Norton
Lyle (although it's a shady win)
Liston (at least the first one)
Young (close fight)
Ellis
Quarry
Mathis

Holyfield's best wins (besides Bowe and possibly Lewis in their second fight):
'92 version of Holmes
'91 version of Foreman
Mercer
'96 version of Tyson
Ruiz
Qawi
Dokes
Cooper
Moorer

Looking over them, I'd say Ali gets the slight edge. Norton and Liston were in their primes when Ali fought them and they would have a good chance at beating everyone of Holyfield's best wins (including Bowe, Lewis and Holyfield himself).

[Jesus]

put ali in any era of heavyweight boxing and he would have dominated...there has been no heavyweight past or present with the speed ali possessed in his hands and feet, he had a great chin, he had heart and could brawl when things started getting rough....how many boxers could have taken the pounding ali got against foreman?? not having ali in top 10 is just ridiculous and there is no way you can justify it without sounding like a hater....

[SaadOffTheDeck]

put ali in any era of heavyweight boxing and he would have dominated...there has been no heavyweight past or present with the speed ali possessed in his hands and feet, he had a great chin, he had heart and could brawl when things started getting rough....how many boxers could have taken the pounding ali got against foreman?? not having ali in top 10 is just ridiculous and there is no way you can justify it without sounding like a hater....

Just give up, you add nothing to this thread. "Hater" is the mating call of the nuthugger.

[J]

the haters will always hate FACT! ali is the greatest of all time FACT! who gives a crap if some guy has 200 wins...i could go out and fight 200 women and be undefeated get what im saying? its not quantity of opponents but the quality of opponents!! ali resume has some very impressive names on it...2 wins over liston, 2 wins over frazier, first guy to ko foreman, also with wins over cooper, chuvalo, norton etc. it would be very difficult to find a better resume then that....holmes and berbick couldnt even ko an old parkinsons disease riddled version of ali!! i honestly dont see how people can rank him outside top 5 let alone top 10!!

He doesn't belong in the top 5. If you think Sam Langford and Harry Greb fought a bunch of women than I don't know what to tell you.

Again, 200 wins isn't the end all. But it means a hell of a lot more than who is more recognized on the street. It's not hard at all to find a better resume than Ali's. What is your top 10?

1. muhammed ali
2. sugar ray robinson
3. joe louis
4. rocky marciano
5. sugar ray leonard
6. willie pep
7. roberto duran
8. jack dempsey
9. henry armstrong
10 marvin hagler

DUDE DUDE STOP.

tha list sucks anus. badly.

fookin maricano ? dempsey? SRL at 5...while I would have ALi in the top ten that list is so bad its untrue.

[hhaehre]

not having ali in top 10 is just ridiculous and there is no way you can justify it without sounding like a hater....

Yes I admit it, I hate Ali. In fact I hate him so much that I only place him somewhere between 10-20 in an all time pound for pound list. That is how much I hate him and let's face it that is a lot of hate. I mean to rate Ali outside #1 you must really have a deep seeded hate for the man.

[Jesus]

He doesn't belong in the top 5. If you think Sam Langford and Harry Greb fought a bunch of women than I don't know what to tell you.

Again, 200 wins isn't the end all. But it means a hell of a lot more than who is more recognized on the street. It's not hard at all to find a better resume than Ali's. What is your top 10?

1. muhammed ali
2. sugar ray robinson
3. joe louis
4. rocky marciano
5. sugar ray leonard
6. willie pep
7. roberto duran
8. jack dempsey
9. henry armstrong
10 marvin hagler

DUDE DUDE STOP.

tha list sucks anus. badly.

fookin maricano ? dempsey? SRL at 5...while I would have ALi in the top ten that list is so bad its untrue.

come on then smart ass lets see your list....this should be funny....

[Jesus]

put ali in any era of heavyweight boxing and he would have dominated...there has been no heavyweight past or present with the speed ali possessed in his hands and feet, he had a great chin, he had heart and could brawl when things started getting rough....how many boxers could have taken the pounding ali got against foreman?? not having ali in top 10 is just ridiculous and there is no way you can justify it without sounding like a hater....

Just give up, you add nothing to this thread. "Hater" is the mating call of the nuthugger.

i will post in whatever thread i wish thank you very much!!

[Ambling Alp]

Have I been nasty? If so, I apologize. I never enjoy having words twisted around. Especially a single question of something that I never said. You just seem all hell bent on my placement of Ali. I have him in the top 15. I'm not condeming him in any way. I can't even believe you're still at it with me over it. When in the world did I say he wasn't in a fighters class? He clearly has an inferior resume to the guys I listed imo. And the fact that you haven't went into a breakdown leads me to believe you agree. So it's on and on with ones I find arguable? Why?

Again, Ali was very top Heavy. I think his prime was when he wasn't fighting, but that's just too bad. Was Doug jones before his prime? Because he most certainly won 3 rds.

Duran fought more soft touches and he also had way more fights. Leonard, Buchanan, Marcel, DeJesus, Palomino, barkley & Cuevas compare just fine with Foreman, frazier, Liston, Norton, Ellis, Quarry, Shavers.

Fighters like Lampkin, Viruet & moore were solid wins. Duran has enough resume to go with my considering him superior to Ali both offensively and defensively that it's not a tough call for me. If Duran retired after No mas he was still an all time great.

Like I said, I can see your point of view on Ali/Duran. I just don't agree with it.

As for Pep, you're the first person I've ever heard say he didn't lose anything after the accident. And for the 200 fights with Muhammad getting stopped more it had nothing to do with weight. Obviously Ali's body couldn't handle that kind of schedule. And if it did, there would be plenty more losses like leon Spinks or ones that could have been to Henry Cooper & Doug Jones. I wasn't making excuses, I think Willie was better. I also didn't find Ali to be greater pre layoff than he was post. I think prelayoff Ali would have been knocked cold in MSG for the first Frazier fight.

Who is next? Benny Leonard? Archie Moore?

I am sorry that feel that I twisted your words. I did not mean to.
As for Ali vs Duran, I don't see how you think duran beat as good as competition. Frazier, Liston, and Foreman were all top 15 heavyweights. Leonard is the fighter Duran ever beat that was even in the top 30 of a weight class. Ali certainly beat as many good fighters as Duran and his loss losses were much less embarrassing and few of them.

Its easy to say that ali would have been knokced out more than Pep if he had fought as much. However that is pure specualtion. Ali never came close to being knokced out anywhere near his prime. The only time he didn't go the distance was when he 38 and had not fought in two years against Holmes.
Ali could not have kept up with Peps schedule? He beat more contenders than Pep. He certainly could have fought a lot of nobodies and not got knocked out.

Pre-layoff Ali would have been knocked cold by Frazier? Please. Frazier best shot put Ali down for a three count. He would have hit Ali a lot less. Ali wins atleast 10 rounds. Of course, if you are comparing resumes, it does not matter what we think would have happended.

As for Armstrong, Greb, Robinson and Langford? I agree that they were (along with Charles) were the best, but I include Ali along with them. You want me to compare Ali to them?
Well how about Armstrong?
They each beat the same amount of Top contederns(33). They both beat a lot of good-great fighters.
Armstrong's best victims were Ross and Ambers. I would rate Frazier and Foreman with them.
After that Wolgast, Angott and was 2-2 against Arizmendi. I would rate Liston, Norton, and Patterson with them.
After that, Armstrong beat Petey Sarron, Jenkins, and was 1-2 against Zivic. And Ali beat Terrell, Ellis, and Quarry.

The competition that Ali and Armstrong beat is very close. You also have consider that Armstrong lost to some less than great fighters-Joe Conde, Ritchie Fontaine,Davey Abad.

A lot of this boils down to how much credit you give a great fighter for beating a journeyman or worse. I give a great fighter very little credit for doing that. I don't hold it against them, but I think don't it means anything.
For example I don't give Ali credit for beat Richard Dunn or Coopman. I give him some credit for beating guys like Quarry and, Ellis. I give him alot of credit for beat Liston, Frazier and Foreman.

If you think Armstrong had the better resume fine. However if you say that it is not close than you really are not looking at it closely.
Quality is a lot more important than quantity.

[J]

1. muhammed ali
2. sugar ray robinson
3. joe louis
4. rocky marciano
5. sugar ray leonard
6. willie pep
7. roberto duran
8. jack dempsey
9. henry armstrong
10 marvin hagler

DUDE DUDE STOP.

tha list sucks anus. badly.

fookin maricano ? dempsey? SRL at 5...while I would have ALi in the top ten that list is so bad its untrue.

come on then smart ass lets see your list....this should be funny....

I COULDNT DO ONE TO BE HONEST TOO MANY GOOD FIGHTERS OUT THERE...and I wasnt trying to be nasty to you...its a brave things to compile an ATG top ten a top 50 is actually easier..but some names perhaps you might like to consider as glaring ommisions..Jimmy Wilde, Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles, Sam Langford, Marcel Cerdan, even someone like Tommy hearns has a much better claim to be on that list than Marciano or Dempsey ....

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Have I been nasty? If so, I apologize. I never enjoy having words twisted around. Especially a single question of something that I never said. You just seem all hell bent on my placement of Ali. I have him in the top 15. I'm not condeming him in any way. I can't even believe you're still at it with me over it. When in the world did I say he wasn't in a fighters class? He clearly has an inferior resume to the guys I listed imo. And the fact that you haven't went into a breakdown leads me to believe you agree. So it's on and on with ones I find arguable? Why?

Again, Ali was very top Heavy. I think his prime was when he wasn't fighting, but that's just too bad. Was Doug jones before his prime? Because he most certainly won 3 rds.

Duran fought more soft touches and he also had way more fights. Leonard, Buchanan, Marcel, DeJesus, Palomino, barkley & Cuevas compare just fine with Foreman, frazier, Liston, Norton, Ellis, Quarry, Shavers.

Fighters like Lampkin, Viruet & moore were solid wins. Duran has enough resume to go with my considering him superior to Ali both offensively and defensively that it's not a tough call for me. If Duran retired after No mas he was still an all time great.

Like I said, I can see your point of view on Ali/Duran. I just don't agree with it.

As for Pep, you're the first person I've ever heard say he didn't lose anything after the accident. And for the 200 fights with Muhammad getting stopped more it had nothing to do with weight. Obviously Ali's body couldn't handle that kind of schedule. And if it did, there would be plenty more losses like leon Spinks or ones that could have been to Henry Cooper & Doug Jones. I wasn't making excuses, I think Willie was better. I also didn't find Ali to be greater pre layoff than he was post. I think prelayoff Ali would have been knocked cold in MSG for the first Frazier fight.

Who is next? Benny Leonard? Archie Moore?

I am sorry that feel that I twisted your words. I did not mean to.
As for Ali vs Duran, I don't see how you think duran beat as good as competition. Frazier, Liston, and Foreman were all top 15 heavyweights. Leonard is the fighter Duran ever beat that was even in the top 30 of a weight class. Ali certainly beat as many good fighters as Duran and his loss losses were much less embarrassing and few of them.

Its easy to say that ali would have been knokced out more than Pep if he had fought as much. However that is pure specualtion. Ali never came close to being knokced out anywhere near his prime. The only time he didn't go the distance was when he 38 and had not fought in two years against Holmes.
Ali could not have kept up with Peps schedule? He beat more contenders than Pep. He certainly could have fought a lot of nobodies and not got knocked out.

Pre-layoff Ali would have been knocked cold by Frazier? Please. Frazier best shot put Ali down for a three count. He would have hit Ali a lot less. Ali wins atleast 10 rounds. Of course, if you are comparing resumes, it does not matter what we think would have happended.

As for Armstrong, Greb, Robinson and Langford? I agree that they were (along with Charles) were the best, but I include Ali along with them. You want me to compare Ali to them?
Well how about Armstrong?
They each beat the same amount of Top contederns(33). They both beat a lot of good-great fighters.
Armstrong's best victims were Ross and Ambers. I would rate Frazier and Foreman with them.
After that Wolgast, Angott and was 2-2 against Arizmendi. I would rate Liston, Norton, and Patterson with them.
After that, Armstrong beat Petey Sarron, Jenkins, and was 1-2 against Zivic. And Ali beat Terrell, Ellis, and Quarry.

The competition that Ali and Armstrong beat is very close. You also have consider that Armstrong lost to some less than great fighters-Joe Conde, Ritchie Fontaine,Davey Abad.

A lot of this boils down to how much credit you give a great fighter for beating a journeyman or worse. I give a great fighter very little credit for doing that. I don't hold it against them, but I think don't it means anything.
For example I don't give Ali credit for beat Richard Dunn or Coopman. I give him some credit for beating guys like Quarry and, Ellis. I give him alot of credit for beat Liston, Frazier and Foreman.

If you think Armstrong had the better resume fine. However if you say that it is not close than you really are not looking at it closely.
Quality is a lot more important than quantity.

No feeling, you've definitely been twisting crap." name me the 10 guys who clearly have better resumes than Ali" How about this? Honestly at this point you're boring me tears. You don't even respond to anything I say. You just repeat the same shit over and over and over. There is nothing on earth you could possibly say or write that would put Ali over Armstrong for me. The resume just isn't there.

Why don't you try making your own list or writing a book about your hero? There is no point carrying on with this. Your Ali love is too much for me and I'm a fan. I'm sure you can find someone else to try and tear down Henry Armstrong with. I'm sure Jesus is game. That wont fly with me. at the way you're trying to bring Ali to light because a guy like Hank lost more fights. Ray Robinson lost to ralph Jones. How long before you get into that? That is shameful. I thought you were a rational poster, I guess I just never wondered into your Ali wheelhouse. You're making me yearn for Granberry.

Duran gets the same treatment. He fought until he was almost 50 and across 10 weight classes. Embarrassing losses? You're embarrassing yourself. he was something along the lines of 78-2 when he left Welterweight. Ali never even approached that many fights. A top30 Lightweight is akin to a top 15 Heavyweight and if Dejesus & buchanan don't make that cut, I'd love to see that ;list. Why don't you work on that? I'd be interested in reading that far more than this futile crusade against my placement of your hero.

The complete lack of objectivity in your posts about Pep, Armstrong & Duran is just unreal. I don't know how you can write that with a straight face. Maybe you're not serious at all. I sure would hope not. You really dug deep on Henry's resume.

As for the rest of the post. I couldn't care less anymore. Somehow, someway you will have to sleep at night knowing that Muhammad isn't in my all time top 10 and there is no chance in the world that he ever will be. The last list I did he came in behind Joe Louis at #13( yup he isn't even my #1 Heavy!), if that is "hating" and not looking at things closely, so be it. I'm sorry that hurts you so deeply. Buck up little trooper

[Ambling Alp]

I am twisting crap? I have no idea what you are talking about. I certainly don't try to do that with people.

I don't respond to anything that you say? Again, I have no idea idea what you are talking about. I always make it a point to respond to people's points. I do remember that I didn't respond to a point you made Ali being in his prime against Doug Jones. I will now. He was not yet in his prime. He was still in that early stage of a fighters career when he is improving fight by fight. He had been a pro less than 2 and half years when he fought Jones.

Of course I dug into Armstrong's record. We are talking about their careers. You should do that with anyone that you are trying to rate. It's not shameful to bring up losses that were in or or close to a fighter's prime. Whether it's Ali or Armstrong or whoever you should do that.


30 lightweights better than Buchanan and DeJesus?
Duran himself.
B. Leonard
Gans
Armstrong
Ross
Whitaker
Welsh
McFarland
Ambers
Williams
Ortiz
Brown
Angott
Mandell
Canzoneri
Jack
Montgomery
Arguello
Wolgst
De La Hoya
Chavez
Nelson
Erne
Lavigne
Petrolle
Holly
Blackburn
Camacho
Moseley
Singer

You can argue that they were better than a couple of them, but you could also argue that guys like Carter and Jenkins were better than DeJesus and Buchanan.

Yes Duran had a great win-loss record. Not arguing that. I just mentioned that the quality of wins don't equal that of Ali's. And I do think quitting against Leonard and getting knocked cold by Hearns is a very bad loss. Certainly worse than losing decisions to Frazier and Norton.

I disagree with your statement regarding top 30 Lightweight is akin to a top 15 Heavyweight.
There is no way that Buchanan and DeJesus were better than Frazier, Foreman, and Liston.

Sorry that you don't like to actually compare guys resumes but instead just like to act condescending.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I never said Buchanan & dejesus were better than Frazier or Foreman. There you go again twisting words. You don't understand? I've given you one example after another. My statement was their resumes are close enough that Duran being better offensively & defensively seals the deal for me.

And yet again I said about 100 posts ago that it is arguable. Seriously, WTF is wrong with you? I'm not acting condescending, I'm fending off a stalker off of a stupid mythical list. I'm condescending and yet you are arguing with me about what I said is arguable? This whole thing has surprised me. If I hadn't read a lot of your posts I would have just dropped you on ignore a while ago. There is nothing worse on line than someone just twisting around every word you say to suit their own posts. Yeah, you don't know what I'm talking about and yet you will do it again in the next post.

You broke down Armstrong and Ali resume for resume? Really? The whole 3 title thing, I'm sure you've heard of it, doesn't factor into the rankings? You go into great detail on the ones I said are arguable. I'll give you that much. But even then your posts reek of bias.

You've typed 10,000 words in here and have yet to produce a list other than that laughable top 30 Lightweights that you can't possibly think Buchanan & dejesus don't belong in. At least I know the degree of stubborness I am dealing with here. Clearly you started doing it and realized they should be between 20 and 30 so you had to toss in fighters like DLH that barely scratched the surface of the weight. Run that resume breakdown for me. DelaHoya vs Dejesus & Buchanan at 135. I'll get the popcorn for that.

Put up your top 10 . That's a reasonable request after all of your novels and criticism. Put up or shut up.

[hitman09]

Somewhere in the 7-10 range. #1 is somewhat of a stretch IMO, but when you get to that high a level of accomplishment (ie. top 10 all time) you are essentially just splitting hairs, to an extent.

[Jesus]

DUDE DUDE STOP.

tha list sucks anus. badly.

fookin maricano ? dempsey? SRL at 5...while I would have ALi in the top ten that list is so bad its untrue.

come on then smart ass lets see your list....this should be funny....

I COULDNT DO ONE TO BE HONEST TOO MANY GOOD FIGHTERS OUT THERE...and I wasnt trying to be nasty to you...its a brave things to compile an ATG top ten a top 50 is actually easier..but some names perhaps you might like to consider as glaring ommisions..Jimmy Wilde, Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles, Sam Langford, Marcel Cerdan, even someone like Tommy hearns has a much better claim to be on that list than Marciano or Dempsey ....

i do think theres maybe a case for archie moore but tommy hearns? the guys claim to fame is losing to hagler and leonard....looking back i actually think i may have been wrong to add dempsey but marciano stays!!

[GranberryReturns]

Have I been nasty? If so, I apologize. I never enjoy having words twisted around. Especially a single question of something that I never said. You just seem all hell bent on my placement of Ali. I have him in the top 15. I'm not condeming him in any way. I can't even believe you're still at it with me over it. When in the world did I say he wasn't in a fighters class? He clearly has an inferior resume to the guys I listed imo. And the fact that you haven't went into a breakdown leads me to believe you agree. So it's on and on with ones I find arguable? Why?

Again, Ali was very top Heavy. I think his prime was when he wasn't fighting, but that's just too bad. Was Doug jones before his prime? Because he most certainly won 3 rds.

Duran fought more soft touches and he also had way more fights. Leonard, Buchanan, Marcel, DeJesus, Palomino, barkley & Cuevas compare just fine with Foreman, frazier, Liston, Norton, Ellis, Quarry, Shavers.

Fighters like Lampkin, Viruet & moore were solid wins. Duran has enough resume to go with my considering him superior to Ali both offensively and defensively that it's not a tough call for me. If Duran retired after No mas he was still an all time great.

Like I said, I can see your point of view on Ali/Duran. I just don't agree with it.

As for Pep, you're the first person I've ever heard say he didn't lose anything after the accident. And for the 200 fights with Muhammad getting stopped more it had nothing to do with weight. Obviously Ali's body couldn't handle that kind of schedule. And if it did, there would be plenty more losses like leon Spinks or ones that could have been to Henry Cooper & Doug Jones. I wasn't making excuses, I think Willie was better. I also didn't find Ali to be greater pre layoff than he was post. I think prelayoff Ali would have been knocked cold in MSG for the first Frazier fight.

Who is next? Benny Leonard? Archie Moore?

I am sorry that feel that I twisted your words. I did not mean to.
As for Ali vs Duran, I don't see how you think duran beat as good as competition. Frazier, Liston, and Foreman were all top 15 heavyweights. Leonard is the fighter Duran ever beat that was even in the top 30 of a weight class. Ali certainly beat as many good fighters as Duran and his loss losses were much less embarrassing and few of them.

Its easy to say that ali would have been knokced out more than Pep if he had fought as much. However that is pure specualtion. Ali never came close to being knokced out anywhere near his prime. The only time he didn't go the distance was when he 38 and had not fought in two years against Holmes.
Ali could not have kept up with Peps schedule? He beat more contenders than Pep. He certainly could have fought a lot of nobodies and not got knocked out.

Pre-layoff Ali would have been knocked cold by Frazier? Please. Frazier best shot put Ali down for a three count. He would have hit Ali a lot less. Ali wins atleast 10 rounds. Of course, if you are comparing resumes, it does not matter what we think would have happended.

As for Armstrong, Greb, Robinson and Langford? I agree that they were (along with Charles) were the best, but I include Ali along with them. You want me to compare Ali to them?
Well how about Armstrong?
They each beat the same amount of Top contederns(33). They both beat a lot of good-great fighters.
Armstrong's best victims were Ross and Ambers. I would rate Frazier and Foreman with them.
After that Wolgast, Angott and was 2-2 against Arizmendi. I would rate Liston, Norton, and Patterson with them.
After that, Armstrong beat Petey Sarron, Jenkins, and was 1-2 against Zivic. And Ali beat Terrell, Ellis, and Quarry.

The competition that Ali and Armstrong beat is very close. You also have consider that Armstrong lost to some less than great fighters-Joe Conde, Ritchie Fontaine,Davey Abad.

A lot of this boils down to how much credit you give a great fighter for beating a journeyman or worse. I give a great fighter very little credit for doing that. I don't hold it against them, but I think don't it means anything.
For example I don't give Ali credit for beat Richard Dunn or Coopman. I give him some credit for beating guys like Quarry and, Ellis. I give him alot of credit for beat Liston, Frazier and Foreman.

If you think Armstrong had the better resume fine. However if you say that it is not close than you really are not looking at it closely.
Quality is a lot more important than quantity.

No feeling, you've definitely been twisting crap." name me the 10 guys who clearly have better resumes than Ali" How about this? Honestly at this point you're boring me tears. You don't even respond to anything I say. You just repeat the same poop over and over and over. There is nothing on earth you could possibly say or write that would put Ali over Armstrong for me. The resume just isn't there.

Why don't you try making your own list or writing a book about your hero? There is no point carrying on with this. Your Ali love is too much for me and I'm a fan. I'm sure you can find someone else to try and tear down Henry Armstrong with. I'm sure Jesus is game. That wont fly with me. at the way you're trying to bring Ali to light because a guy like Hank lost more fights. Ray Robinson lost to ralph Jones. How long before you get into that? That is shameful. I thought you were a rational poster, I guess I just never wondered into your Ali wheelhouse. You're making me yearn for Granberry.
Duran gets the same treatment. He fought until he was almost 50 and across 10 weight classes. Embarrassing losses? You're embarrassing yourself. he was something along the lines of 78-2 when he left Welterweight. Ali never even approached that many fights. A top30 Lightweight is akin to a top 15 Heavyweight and if Dejesus & buchanan don't make that cut, I'd love to see that ;list. Why don't you work on that? I'd be interested in reading that far more than this futile crusade against my placement of your hero.

The complete lack of objectivity in your posts about Pep, Armstrong & Duran is just unreal. I don't know how you can write that with a straight face. Maybe you're not serious at all. I sure would hope not. You really dug deep on Henry's resume.

As for the rest of the post. I couldn't care less anymore. Somehow, someway you will have to sleep at night knowing that Muhammad isn't in my all time top 10 and there is no chance in the world that he ever will be. The last list I did he came in behind Joe Louis at #13( yup he isn't even my #1 Heavy!), if that is "hating" and not looking at things closely, so be it. I'm sorry that hurts you so deeply. Buck up little trooper

I'm still here. I don't have Ali in the Top One Hundred.

[bollox]

I'm still here. I don't have Ali in the Top One Hundred

I refuse to acknowledge your new name and shall therefore always refer to you as Terap