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Re: Who Did Larry Holmes Ever Beat That Was Good?
Posted: 05 Aug 2010, 22:26
by Goodnight, Irene
Robinson wrote:Either way you look at it. Cooney in 1981-82 was a very real and very
credible contender and I doubt any great past or present would have
taken him lightly. After the fact we saw him lose interest and spiral into
uncertain standings, but his only losses were to 3 HW champions.
His wins on the way to Holmes were mostly over the hill names, certainly,
he did however decimate those that were before him leading up to that
fight.
I do not think that either Cooney or Shavers were 'extremely limited'.
I think both were well schooled fighters, both had as mentioned tremendous
power, both employed their strengths well, and did their best to protect
their weaknesses (exposed chins when going for the kill, and lack of long
term stamina which is common with most fast twitch athletes).
The fact remains that both guys would give a lot of champions trouble and
would be credible wins to any champion, especially at the stage of the
careers that both men were at when they fought Holmes.
Shavers, though, only faced one great champion anywhere close to their prime in his career --- that man was Holmes, & he was thoroughly, utterly schooled --- to the point of humiliation. The Holmes-Shavers bouts is like the Tunney-Dempsey affairs. Everyone seems to remember that one great moment (& they were genuinely great, to be fair) both Dempsey & Shavers had, but their opponents literally tormented them for every minute of every round outside of those incidents.
Between them, & spanning some forty-plus rounds, Dempsey & Shavers might've won a combined three,
maybe four rounds against Tunney & Holmes.
I don't think Shavers represents anywhere near the threat history records him as being. His flaws were deep, wide & never corrected. Ditto for Cooney.
Re: Who Did Larry Holmes Ever Beat That Was Good?
Posted: 05 Aug 2010, 23:00
by Robinson
And that only serves to demonstrate just how supremely awesome Holmes was,
that he seldom gave rounds away to his opponents.
Re: Who Did Larry Holmes Ever Beat That Was Good?
Posted: 05 Aug 2010, 23:56
by Darling
Robinson wrote:And that only serves to demonstrate just how supremely awesome Holmes was,
that he seldom gave rounds away to his opponents.
Good point, Kym.
Not that Irene will understand or appreciate it.
Re: Who Did Larry Holmes Ever Beat That Was Good?
Posted: 06 Aug 2010, 01:19
by Goodnight, Irene
Robinson wrote:And that only serves to demonstrate just how supremely awesome Holmes was,
that he seldom gave rounds away to his opponents.
Holmes was an awesome fighter, & only a hater would dispute it. However, his dominance had a good bit to do with Shavers being as limited as he was. He wasn't able to dominate Cooney in the same fashion, simply because of Cooney's superior height & range, not that Cooney was dramatically better, if at all, than Shavers.
Larry Holmes was a terrific, all-time Heavyweight, but he needed a sterner challenge in his career than these guys, & unfortunately (or fortunately, depending how you look at it) such a challenge never came. Tyson was just five years too late arriving on the scene, just as Holmes' delayed arrival caused him to miss the greater challenges of the era partly-preceding him.
Re: Who Did Larry Holmes Ever Beat That Was Good?
Posted: 06 Aug 2010, 01:50
by SaadOffTheDeck
Diamond WEAPON wrote:SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Why wouldn't Holmes think he was the best ever? That is the mentality of a great fighter. Tyson thought he was too, except Mike always knew that Evander was his daddy.
Edit: oops, I didn't notice that was a Mugabi post. My apologies for starting a fight with a dissenting opinion.
Tyson could've easily made the same excuses Holmes always seems to come up with (Tyson's fans sure do for various reasons) but he doesn't. Difference is Tyson isn't so self-conscious thet he feels that he has to pronounce himself the GOAT every time somebody talks to him. Holmes is a prick with obvious self-esteem issues, hence all the insults and disses toward pretty much every HW who ever lived.
I could care less, he was a great fighter and nobody gave him anything. Tyson can't say he is the greatest with a straight face because he knows Holyfield was better than him even if his fans don't.
Larry's resume can't touch Ali's, but I can't begrudge him for thinking he would beat him. He may well have. I wont make excuses for his comments, but the media never liked him. He tried to play nice at first and got nothing but criticism and then he just unloaded at will. I never question what kind of man someone is by the way they come off in the media.
He has never gotten in any trouble, still lives in his small town and provides many jobs there. He might be as nice a guy as you'll ever meet and he might be the biggest jerk in the world. either way he is one of the best to ever climb through the ropes.
And lets not forget the death jump off the car at berbick. That was one of histories greatest moments. I don't think even his greatest detractors can deny that.
Re: Who Did Larry Holmes Ever Beat That Was Good?
Posted: 06 Aug 2010, 03:46
by Goodnight, Irene
^^^LOL! Too true!
Re: Who Did Larry Holmes Ever Beat That Was Good?
Posted: 06 Aug 2010, 09:53
by SaadOffTheDeck
It's also funny to hear people talk about how Larry talked bad about other fighters when you look at the champion he followed and idiolized. I think a lot of it was just him trying to win favor with the public and media. It worked for his predecessor & role model. Oddly, a lot of the people that criticize Holmes for his behavior are ravenous fans of that other guy who shall remain nameless. Yeah right, he was only a jerk to sell tickets.
Re: Who Did Larry Holmes Ever Beat That Was Good?
Posted: 06 Aug 2010, 17:36
by hhaehre
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:It's also funny to hear people talk about how Larry talked bad about other fighters when you look at the champion he followed and idiolized. I think a lot of it was just him trying to win favor with the public and media. It worked for his predecessor & role model. Oddly, a lot of the people that criticize Holmes for his behavior are ravenous fans of that other guy who shall remain nameless. Yeah right, he was only a jerk to sell tickets.
Well I'm no big fan of either guy but Alis ramblings seemed to be mostly tongue-in-cheek, his foul assault on Frazier being a glaring exception. Holmes on the other hand just came off as a humourless jerk. No doubt Holmes gave up on winnig the general public over and just said whatever he felt like, much of which spelled asshole loud and clear.
Re: Who Did Larry Holmes Ever Beat That Was Good?
Posted: 08 Aug 2010, 04:30
by Robinson
I do not think that Ali was always tongue in cheek.
besides if I said to a gal that she was fat as a joke over
and over and over again.. while it may be light hearted
jiving on my part. Its still very poorly placed, hurtful and
in many ways just un needed.
Bullying is bullying regardless of how much venom you
throw into your words.
So if people want to condemn Holmes for saying what
he thought, while his actions displayed a person who
did very little wrong... then let them be so idiotic.
I know alot of people that say nice things but do bad
things... I tend to favour acts over words. But then again
alot of politicians win re-elections. It says a lot of how
well people are seduced by the tongue..... that sounds
sexy.
Re: Who Did Larry Holmes Ever Beat That Was Good?
Posted: 08 Aug 2010, 07:34
by hhaehre
Robinson wrote:I do not think that Ali was always tongue in cheek.
So if people want to condemn Holmes for saying what
he thought, while his actions displayed a person who
did very little wrong... then let them be so idiotic.
What actions? So he raised a family and stayed out of jail, big deal. What else do you know about his actions that were so special? The man consistently acted like a jerk but I'm sure he really is the nicest guy in the world, after all he isn't a convicted killer or rapist like most of us.
Re: Who Did Larry Holmes Ever Beat That Was Good?
Posted: 08 Aug 2010, 08:30
by Robinson
Yeah only a jerk like him would lend money to other former prize fighters
or raise money for charitable organisations.
He is no saint. But he was a clean living champion. To me thats a better
role model than one who cheats on his wife, rapes, assaults, uses
drugs etc... heck nearly every top athlete 'smack talks' some are worse
than otehrs.
But Holmes' crime ? That he thinks he could beat other past champions.
My goodness... look out.
Re: Who Did Larry Holmes Ever Beat That Was Good?
Posted: 09 Aug 2010, 06:46
by Bricks
hhaehre wrote:SaadOffTheDeck wrote:It's also funny to hear people talk about how Larry talked bad about other fighters when you look at the champion he followed and idiolized. I think a lot of it was just him trying to win favor with the public and media. It worked for his predecessor & role model. Oddly, a lot of the people that criticize Holmes for his behavior are ravenous fans of that other guy who shall remain nameless. Yeah right, he was only a jerk to sell tickets.
Well I'm no big fan of either guy but Alis ramblings seemed to be mostly tongue-in-cheek, his foul assault on Frazier being a glaring exception. Holmes on the other hand just came off as a humourless jerk. No doubt Holmes gave up on winnig the general public over and just said whatever he felt like, much of which spelled asshole loud and clear.
I agree with everything you said. But I also think Holmes was an egomaniac and his ego couldnt take being considered "in the shadow" of Ali. To this day everything about the way he talks is about putting him self over on people and condescending them.
Re: Who Did Larry Holmes Ever Beat That Was Good?
Posted: 15 Aug 2010, 06:44
by GranberryReturns
I see posters were unable to list a quality fighter Larry Holmes beat. Why am I not surprised?