BoxRec

Carlos-Wigan wrote:

slapbangwhallop wrote: OK so you recognise that people from the north can be Irish. Thats a step even Ian Paisley took over ten years ago.

The McGuigan situation and all those other fighters you mention from the book are a. from south of the border, and b. fought pre-GFA.

The BoxRec field states "nationality" - not citizenship. So the discussion is "what nationality is McCloskey"

Usually a passport would sort this issue out - but not always. McCloskey may hold a British passport, especially if he needed to take one out to nab a British title shot. I am sure someone with a greater knowledge of the BBBofC rule book will be able to tell us if you need to actually have a British passport or you can provide evidence that you qualify for one.

But McCloskey also may hold an Irish passport at the same time.

That still doesnt answer the "nationality" question, does it.

Of course! In the case of John Duddy, a man related (and named after) one of the bloody sunday victims who was a relation of his, has never fought for any of the BBB of C titles and has no interest in them - he should be classed as Irish. All cases are different though and in this paticular case. McCloskey holds a British passport, was born in a town that is classed as part of the United Kingdom (wherever you like it or not) won the British national title and has fought most of his professional bouts in the UK. He is British in every regard as far his professional circumstances are concerned - you accept that Leonard surely? What boxrec is, its a site that holds records and information about professional boxers and to state he is from the Republic of Ireland would be errornous on the part of boxrec. Now if McCloskey identifies himself as Irish and not British in his personal life then fair enough but in his professional career - he has won a British and a Commonwealth title. He holds a British professional boxing license and he has won a British national boxing title - There can be no more to it I am afraid.

Anyway - its 1am and there will be plenty more said about this tomorrow from more learned scribes than I, I am sure - so goodnight! :geek2:

Fingalar wrote:
If Wikipedia means eff all, then why is Paul McCloskey's biography taken straight from wikipedia? Boxrec says he is Irish and he's not Irish at the same time. Its ridiculous. Also national newspapers, particularly the Irish Independent, have a lot more weight than some random guy called Carlos.

crusader wrote:I don't want to get involved and have no opinion on the issue, but lol at wikipedia being a credible source. Anyone can edit it. I could go on there right now and change Paul McCloskey's nationality to Egyptian.

Carlos-Wigan wrote:

Fingalar wrote:
If Wikipedia means eff all, then why is Paul McCloskey's biography taken straight from wikipedia? Boxrec says he is Irish and he's not Irish at the same time. Its ridiculous. Also national newspapers, particularly the Irish Independent, have a lot more weight than some random guy called Carlos.

Hey! Some random guy called Carlos knows what he is talking about - the hurling writer who covers the boxing sometimes for the Irish independent does not! It's all you need to know for now young man - good night! 8)

sg1985 wrote:

Fingalar wrote:

crusader wrote:I don't want to get involved and have no opinion on the issue, but lol at wikipedia being a credible source. Anyone can edit it. I could go on there right now and change Paul McCloskey's nationality to Egyptian.

Ok, then why do Boxrec use it? Just goes to show they have no clue about Paul McCloskey and further emphasises their incompetence which led to this ridiculous conversation about him not being Irish.

Why do Boxrec use what? If Wikipedia is listing him as Irish, and Boxrec isn't, I would doubt extremely highly Wiki was the source.

sg1985 wrote:

Fingalar wrote:I'm amazed at the amount of people here who say things and believe they are right just because they said it.

He is Irish, as shown by the ample evidence I have provided.
The case for him being British has no evidence, but merely the words of some random people on a forum.

You cannot argue with a person on their own nationality. Thats just ridiculous.

OK. I was born in England, to a Northern Irish mother and a Lancastrian father, but I am French. Prove otherwise.

Carlos-Wigan wrote:

slapbangwhallop wrote: OK so you recognise that people from the north can be Irish. Thats a step even Ian Paisley took over ten years ago.

The McGuigan situation and all those other fighters you mention from the book are a. from south of the border, and b. fought pre-GFA.

The BoxRec field states "nationality" - not citizenship. So the discussion is "what nationality is McCloskey"

Usually a passport would sort this issue out - but not always. McCloskey may hold a British passport, especially if he needed to take one out to nab a British title shot. I am sure someone with a greater knowledge of the BBBofC rule book will be able to tell us if you need to actually have a British passport or you can provide evidence that you qualify for one.

But McCloskey also may hold an Irish passport at the same time.

That still doesnt answer the "nationality" question, does it.

Of course! In the case of John Duddy, a man related (and named after) one of the bloody sunday victims who was a relation of his, has never fought for any of the BBB of C titles and has no interest in them - he should be classed as Irish. All cases are different though and in this paticular case. McCloskey holds a British passport, was born in a town that is classed as part of the United Kingdom (wherever you like it or not) won the British national title and has fought most of his professional bouts in the UK. He is British in every regard as far his professional circumstances are concerned - you accept that Leonard surely? What boxrec is, its a site that holds records and information about professional boxers and to state he is from the Republic of Ireland would be errornous on the part of boxrec. Now if McCloskey identifies himself as Irish and not British in his personal life then fair enough but in his professional career - he has won a British and a Commonwealth title. He holds a British professional boxing license and he has won a British national boxing title - There can be no more to it I am afraid.

Anyway - its 1am and there will be plenty more said about this tomorrow from more learned scribes than I, I am sure - so goodnight! :geek2:

NB: McCloskey didn't ever fight or win a commonwealth title - as I am sure you all know!

sg1985 wrote:

Fingalar wrote:

sg1985 wrote: OK. I was born in England, to a Northern Irish mother and a Lancastrian father, but I am French. Prove otherwise.

Either you are lying about that---Are you saying Paul McCloskey is lying?
OR
This is true and I should accept that you are intelligent enough to know your own nationality and I have no business questioning that.
Just like people should do for Paul McCloskey.

I was merely pointing out how ridiculous your last sentence was, I was born in England to those parents, but I can't say I'm French can I? And if I do, you can argue that fact, hence, you can argue with someone on their own nationality.

sg1985 wrote:

Fingalar wrote:

sg1985 wrote: OK. I was born in England, to a Northern Irish mother and a Lancastrian father, but I am French. Prove otherwise.

Either you are lying about that---Are you saying Paul McCloskey is lying?
OR
This is true and I should accept that you are intelligent enough to know your own nationality and I have no business questioning that.
Just like people should do for Paul McCloskey.

I was merely pointing out how ridiculous your last sentence was, I was born in England to those parents, but I can't say I'm French can I? And if I do, you can argue that fact, hence, you can argue with someone on their own nationality.

sg1985 wrote:

BigEars wrote:

sg1985 wrote: I was merely pointing out how ridiculous your last sentence was, I was born in England to those parents, but I can't say I'm French can I? And if I do, you can argue that fact, hence, you can argue with someone on their own nationality.

You can but when you do it for someone like McCloskey you are disregarding his rights under the Good Friday Agreement.

I agree. I think the difference between citizenship and nationality has been lost here, personally I don't care how someone decides their nationality, it just annoys me why we let shite like this separate us, it's just pointless politics.

sg1985 wrote:

Fingalar wrote:Can I ask why people are against it being changed?

Why can't Paul McCloskey be identified as Irish if this has been proved and he himself says he is Irish?

Why is it important to some people that it isn't changed?

I don't think anyone has said they're against it being changed, I'm not, why do you personally need it to be changed? Why do you care so much?

sg1985 wrote:

Fingalar wrote:

sg1985 wrote: I don't think anyone has said they're against it being changed, I'm not, why do you personally need it to be changed? Why do you care so much?

Because it is wrong. And also, I think it is unfair when Irish athletes are labelled British when they themselves identify themselves as Irish. It's also important to nationalists in Northern Ireland to be seen as Irish, as we are entitled to. I wouldn't question anyone elses nationality and I don't understand where people get the idea that they can question the nationality of Irish people living in Northern Ireland.

I'm asking why do YOU care, what made you take time out of your day to bring this up?

crusader wrote:Paul McCloskey is Nigerian

sg1985 wrote:

Fingalar wrote: Because I don't see why Boxrec shouldn't change it.
It should be a matter of me sending an email saying, 'You got it wrong there, he's Irish.' and then they say 'Oh right, he says that on his website, fair enough.' and then just changing it.

Have you tried that?

I think it's hard for a site like this to get to every fighter born in NI, and to put down their personal beliefs on their nationality. If the fighter in question contacts the site, and wants Irish listed then they should list it as such imo, but has that happened?

sg1985 wrote:

Fingalar wrote:

sg1985 wrote: Have you tried that?

I think it's hard for a site like this to get to every fighter born in NI, and to put down their personal beliefs on their nationality. If the fighter in question contacts the site, and wants Irish listed then they should list it as such imo, but has that happened?

His website is evidence enough. And its not personal beliefs, his nationality is Irish.
British until assumed otherwise isn't exactly fair, why not list every fighter born in NI as Irish? It's just as reasonable.

Fair point, but I think listing British over Irish is less of a political statement. Surely you can agree with that?

sg1985 wrote:

Fingalar wrote: Because I don't see why Boxrec shouldn't change it.
It should be a matter of me sending an email saying, 'You got it wrong there, he's Irish.' and then they say 'Oh right, he says that on his website, fair enough.' and then just changing it.

Have you tried that?

I think it's hard for a site like this to get to every fighter born in NI, and to put down their personal beliefs on their nationality. If the fighter in question contacts the site, and wants Irish listed then they should list it as such imo, but has that happened?

BigEars wrote:

sg1985 wrote:

Fingalar wrote: Because I don't see why Boxrec shouldn't change it.
It should be a matter of me sending an email saying, 'You got it wrong there, he's Irish.' and then they say 'Oh right, he says that on his website, fair enough.' and then just changing it.

Have you tried that?

I think it's hard for a site like this to get to every fighter born in NI, and to put down their personal beliefs on their nationality. If the fighter in question contacts the site, and wants Irish listed then they should list it as such imo, but has that happened?

The problem was in the past(and I'm not sure if you're aware of the previous John Duddy situation on boxrec), John Duddy requested this and was refused. Some of the reasons given why were pretty shocking and I'm not going to repeat them on this thread as it'll only get locked.

sg1985 wrote:

Fingalar wrote:

sg1985 wrote: Fair point, but I think listing British over Irish is less of a political statement. Surely you can agree with that?

No. It's just they are in a position to do that. Also, the vast majority of boxers from Northern Ireland are of Irish nationality, e.g. Paul, Martin Rogan, Martin Lindsay etc. So it would make more sense to list them all as Irish, due to the fact that the majority of them are.

Im not really being serious about listing them as Irish, but just saying that people wouldn't like it if the shoe was on the other foot.

But that isn't a fair argument, until they make that personal choice, they were born in Britain, and are considered British. If they reject that, fair do's, but Boxrec can't be expected to know that. If he contacts them, they should change it, but has he personally done that?

sg1985 wrote:

Fingalar wrote:

sg1985 wrote: Fair point, but I think listing British over Irish is less of a political statement. Surely you can agree with that?

No. It's just they are in a position to do that. Also, the vast majority of boxers from Northern Ireland are of Irish nationality, e.g. Paul, Martin Rogan, Martin Lindsay etc. So it would make more sense to list them all as Irish, due to the fact that the majority of them are.

Im not really being serious about listing them as Irish, but just saying that people wouldn't like it if the shoe was on the other foot.

But that isn't a fair argument, until they make that personal choice, they were born in Britain, and are considered British. If they reject that, fair do's, but Boxrec can't be expected to know that. If he contacts them, they should change it, but has he personally done that?