BoxRec

Conteh was the best I've seen in action, although from an accomplishments stand-point it's hard to argue against Fitz. Calzaghe wouldn't crack my top 20.

meh, this is actually quite a difficult one, IMO, as so many British fighters have fairly sketchy records at world level, IE their records come with sizeable qualifiers, or their reign at the top level was short, etc etc

i will say one thing only, which is that in terms of pure skill, I think Buchanan and Conteh were clearly, and i do mean clearly, ahead of the rest of the pack. Not entirely coincidentally, these two men had the best jabs ever to be displayed by British boxers, well, along with Howard Winstone, who i think i would have a notch below the above 2 in terms of overall ability if not skill. I really don't think the likes of Calzaghe Lewis Hamed come close from the standpoint of pure fundamental skill. oh and this comes with the disclaimer that I cannot judge anyone i haven't seen so Wilde et al are out.

I think Winstone was better from a fundamental stand-point than Buchanan, if not as versatile due to his right hand impairment. Conteh was one of the most talented fighters I've ever seen, period. He seemed to have it all before his partying ways took it away from him.

1. Ted (Kid) Lewis.

2. Joe Calzaghe.

3. Bob Fitzsimmons

4. Naseem Hamed

5. Jimmy WIlde

6. Lennox Lewis

7. Benny Lynch

8. Freddie Welsh

9. Jim Driscoll

10. Randy Turpin

Counter-puncher wrote:meh, this is actually quite a difficult one, IMO, as so many British fighters have fairly sketchy records at world level, IE their records come with sizeable qualifiers, or their reign at the top level was short, etc etc

i will say one thing only, which is that in terms of pure skill, I think Buchanan and Conteh were clearly, and i do mean clearly, ahead of the rest of the pack. Not entirely coincidentally, these two men had the best jabs ever to be displayed by British boxers, well, along with Howard Winstone, who i think i would have a notch below the above 2 in terms of overall ability if not skill. I really don't think the likes of Calzaghe Lewis Hamed come close from the standpoint of pure fundamental skill. oh and this comes with the disclaimer that I cannot judge anyone i haven't seen so Wilde et al are out.

The problem with ranking fighters on fundamental skill is that it is not a quantifiable criteria. At the end of the day, only results truly matter.

How many times have we heard people talk about Audley Harrison's innate talent? And yet, where are the results? Herol Graham was a fine, fine boxer, but doesn't figure in British ATG discussions because, for all the fundamental skill in the world, he never won a world title.

I understand there are flaws in the results argument too, because a lot of that has to do with political manoeuvering, and if Graham had received the same opportunities as, say, Calzaghe, he likely would have left a greater legacy. But nobody ever said boxing is fair, and to that end, that's why I say results MUST be the primary ranking criteria, because it's the only truly measurable one.

That's why I have the admittedly controversial stance about Winstone. For sure he was extremely talented, but his results just don't come in any higher than a lot of other Brits. That's not meant as any disrespect to him or his many admirers. He undoubtedly was unlucky find himself in the era he did, and against the champ he did in Saldivar, but trying to rank him based on how he might have done against other champs, or at other times, or what he might have achieved with more luck, etc etc, is purely conjecture.

1. Jimmy Wilde
2. Bob Fitzsimmons
3. Jim Driscoll
4. Benny Lynch
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Ted Lewis
7. Ken Buchanan
8. Freddie Welsh
9. Jack Kid Berg
10. Joe Calzaghe

Oliver, I take your point. yes, absolutely, the most important tie-breaker is, and always should be, 'who's he fought?', and there are several problems with asessing fighters from the perspective of fundamental skill alone.

for one thing it is very much in the eye of the beholder. to an extent some very skillfull fighters just aesthetically look so pleasing to the eye, and clearly its no absolute criteria for measuring relative greatness.

I find it interesting, however, in the context of what each fighter managed to do with their god-given gifts, or lack thereof (imagine Winstone with a functioning right hand, or Buchanan with the young Calzaghe's physicality and overwhelming vigour). also, it comes in useful in cases where the 'who's he beat?' question leaves no obvious case for a winner, or pretty much as I said above 'as so many British fighters have fairly sketchy records at world level, IE their records come with sizeable qualifiers, or their reign at the top level was short, etc etc', it is at least a reasonable tiebreaker.

Was going to create a new thread but saw there's already an old one. Such a hard list to compile because of the massive gaps between era's and whatnot. I tend to find myself changing the middle of the order a lot. My top three are set in stone pretty much and my #10 spot I have him way above #11 but a little far back from my #9 as much as I love the fighter.

1. Jimmy Wilde
2. Bob Fitzsimmons
3. Ted 'Kid' Lewis
4. Freddie Welsh
5. Joe Calzaghe
6. Lennox Lewis
7. Jim Driscoll
8. Jack 'Kid' Berg
9. Benny Lynch
10. Ken Buchanan

Lynch probably would have gone a few places higher but for his lifestyle and early burnout, same for Buchanan if not for the birth of Roberto Duran. I find 4-9 almost interchangeable. If Fitz doesn't count then Owen Moran would be my #10.

Next 10 honorable mentions in rough order: Owen Moran, Randolph Turpin, Len Harvey, John Conteh, Naseem Hamed, Freddie Mills, Jock McAvoy, Ricky Hatton, Nigel Benn, Chris Eubank.

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 14:10 Was going to create a new thread but saw there's already an old one. Such a hard list to compile because of the massive gaps between era's and whatnot. I tend to find myself changing the middle of the order a lot. My top three are set in stone pretty much and my #10 spot I have him way above #11 but a little far back from my #9 as much as I love the fighter.

1. Jimmy Wilde
2. Bob Fitzsimmons
3. Ted 'Kid' Lewis
4. Freddie Welsh
5. Joe Calzaghe
6. Lennox Lewis
7. Jim Driscoll
8. Jack 'Kid' Berg
9. Benny Lynch
10. Ken Buchanan

Lynch probably would have gone a few places higher but for his lifestyle and early burnout, same for Buchanan if not for the birth of Roberto Duran. I find 4-9 almost interchangeable. If Fitz doesn't count then Owen Moran would be my #10.

Next 10 honorable mentions in rough order: Owen Moran, Randolph Turpin, Len Harvey, John Conteh, Naseem Hamed, Freddie Mills, Jock McAvoy, Ricky Hatton, Nigel Benn, Chris Eubank.

Nice list. My list is:

1. Bob Fitzsimmons (England)
2. Jimmy Wilde (Wales)
3. Jack "Kid" Berg (England)
4. Lennox Lewis (England)
5. Ted "Kid" Lewis (England)
6. Benny Lynch (Scotland)
7. Joe Calzaghe (Wales)
8. Ken Buchanan (Scotland)
9. Freddie Welsh (Wales)
10. Peerless Jim Driscoll (Wales)

But, of all the British boxers that I truly love, is Ken Buchanan. I would like to meet him one day.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 16:35 But, of all the British boxers that I truly love, is Ken Buchanan. I would like to meet him one day.

Buchanan and Calzaghe are mine.

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 17:08 Buchanan and Calzaghe are mine.

Just like I would like to meet Marvelous, The Hitman, Sugar Ray and Big George.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 16:35 But, of all the British boxers that I truly love, is Ken Buchanan. I would like to meet him one day.

I bet if you wrote to Kenny he would reply. Great guy.

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 20:34 I bet if you wrote to Kenny he would reply. Great guy.

I like Buchanan's boxing style. I would like to talk to him about his career. What does he really thinks about his opponents, etc, etc, etc.

Buchanan to me has been one of boxing's mysteries after he lost to Duran. Duran's career flourished, and his went down little by little. But, thanks for the Internet I have been able to know more about the guy. I want to get his autobiography, "The Tartan Legend".

elmersalsa wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 22:58 I like Buchanan's boxing style. I would like to talk to him about his career. What does he really thinks about his opponents, etc, etc, etc.

Buchanan to me has been one of boxing's mysteries after he lost to Duran. Duran's career flourished, and his went down little by little. But, thanks for the Internet I have been able to know more about the guy. I want to get his autobiography, "The Tartan Legend".

His autobiography is a thoroughly enjoyable read. I think you should get that now and you’ll read it in one or two sittings. His wit and fun nature shine through and there’s some good stories. One of the better boxing autobiographies.

There was another good book he wrote in the 80s, “High life and hard times”. It’s been a long time since I read that but I still have it and it was a good one.

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑28 Jun 2019, 00:39 His autobiography is a thoroughly enjoyable read. I think you should get that now and you’ll read it in one or two sittings. His wit and fun nature shine through and there’s some good stories. One of the better boxing autobiographies.

There was another good book he wrote in the 80s, “High life and hard times”. It’s been a long time since I read that but I still have it and it was a good one.

Thanks, chrisjs1985! I will go to the library to see if they can get me those two autobiographies.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑28 Jun 2019, 07:54 Thanks, chrisjs1985! I will go to the library to see if they can get me those two autobiographies.

They can both be found on amazon or ebay too. They are very inexpensive. Probably $6-7.

Fury will prove to be #1 once. Mark my words.

DrDuke wrote: ↑28 Jun 2019, 14:54 Fury will prove to be #1 once. Mark my words.

In your opinion, what would he need to do to be #1?

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑29 Jun 2019, 18:16 In your opinion, what would he need to do to be #1?

In my opinion, he'll win Wilder in the early 2020, then he'll go for the other belts, whoever will possess them by that moment, Joshua, Ruiz, etc. Then he'll do a solid defence streak against other top guys or future top guys, who are seen as prospects now. If everything will indeed go like in these wet dreams of mine, for me Fury will surpass Lewis and become the greatest British boxer ever.

Absolutely no chance of him surpassing Lewis. Lennox would have splattered him all over the canvas.

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑01 Jul 2019, 06:12 Absolutely no chance of him surpassing Lewis. Lennox would have splattered him all over the canvas.

I've always taken Lewis as the best. And even now I agree with you. But I already have some hesitation. Time will prove everything.

Fury is the best of a mediocre crop of heavyweights. What he has going for him is that he'll likely become undisputed one day but he also could unravel again or just retire once he's undisputed. I feel he'd need to be a fighting champion that stays active to make his way up the list.

I see him beating Wilder (again) and Usyk will be the guy with the other belts and he has the style to make Usyk look not so hot but I think he'd need to put a lot of volume in to make it. The absolute cream of the crop of the Brits are very difficult to overtake like Wilde, Fitzsimmons, Welsh, Ted Lewis etc; Fury will have done very well to be mentioned in the same breath as Lennox.

so many greats who for one reason or another missed those "achievement based fights".

Harvey, Casey, McAvoy, Boon, Roderick, Gilroy, Brady, Keenan, Danahar and those are just from that one 30s & 40s Era, others like Cooper, Watson and obviously a few others from the span of a 100 odd years too.

Given the chance, another chance and on their best night, these men are as good as it gets... some people will say Graham, but that is the point, he Had 3 Chances, these fighters didn't, or were affected by the war, or other such political factors.

if you look first at the Best Most Competetive Era's, the TOP 3 or 4 names - Champions and Contenders among them, you can safely come up with approx 50 names of great fighters who on their night were the real deal.