BoxRec

Il Duce wrote:I disagree on all counts,

Then I suggest we all stop counting.

BoxBuzz wrote:

Il Duce wrote:I disagree on all counts,

Then I suggest we all stop counting.

I agree with boxbuzz and ThatOne's view on this. Has anybody seen the alternative angle replay of the knockout? Side on slo-mo.....? Very interesting and seldom shown.....

It's a fun forensics study...and well worth the time spent.

evrenb wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:

Il Duce wrote:I disagree on all counts,

Then I suggest we all stop counting.

I agree with boxbuzz and ThatOne's view on this. Has anybody seen the alternative angle replay of the knockout? Side on slo-mo.....? Very interesting and seldom shown.....

I watched it repeatedly the other day upon the suggestion of BoxBuzz. The punch did look like it could've caused a legitimate knockdown...I still think Liston could've gotten up, but just decided to quit.

If your taking some time watching that fight.....look at Listons facial expresssions......he gets more frustrated by the round.....he "aint getting no traction"....lol.....even when he's got a blinded fighter in front of him.....he is the one whos gassing big time.....he's lookin like a balloon that's losing it's air.

His look of confidence is out the window as the rounds progress.

Il Duce wrote:I still don't 'see' a dominant Cassius Clay in this bout half-way thru
Round 5 and Round 6.

Medium-power left jabs, and Sonny not doing anything much but allowing
Cassius to jab him without much return.

Sonny was not being 'slammed' all over the Ring, and the pace of both was
damn near 'Snail-Speed'.

Eddie Machen who was at Ringside, was laughing through all of this.........

Eddie Machen, "I've seen better fights in the psychiatric ward."

I don't think anybody ever said it was one of the greatest fights of all time or nothing, but it was a damn good performance from Ali against a feared Heavyweight Champion who most picked over him at the time.

I watched this thing on a very big screen one time and wrote this while watching it.

Round 1. First of all the body language and the facial expressions tell me a story. Ali looks hopeful and energetic but may not be as confident as he has been talking. Sonny is not kidding around, and he's got the body language and looks of a man who means business and intends and believes he is about to deliver a beating. And in these first three minutes he is forced off balance, he's lunging and knows he's looking bad, and he almost shows embarrassment. I counted 3 shots that he fully put his hopes on to end the fight and they landed on thin air and nothing more. They took the wind out of his sails. You can see in his eyes on the third shot that he is frustrated. The skirmish after the bell is interesting

Round 1 Clay

Round 2. Okay I'll give this round to Liston, he hits some pay dirt twice with his big jab...not quite a hook but I'd call it a power shot anyway and it got Clay's attention. I see Clay studying and measuring. I see Clay as the boss in this round, but on pure points I will give this to Sonny...he is the champion. Liston did land the more meaningful punches but if you read these men and not purely the fighting, Clay has the upper hand mentally between these two. He is gaining confidence and Liston is deflating.

Round 2. Liston

Round 3 Clay is slipping masterfully or else Liston just can't be read wrong...you pick it. First two minutes are Clay's and he completely gets Liston's respect. I'll give the last minute to Liston but not enough to carry the round. Liston has a cut and a mouse on the left side of his face and he appears to be confused, he has no answers but he's far from giving up, his body language is clearly telling me he is searching for answers and hoping they might come. He is NOT his typical confident self. He has now gone farther than his last two fights combined, and it's a whole different world for him. He may have rang Clay's bell a bit in the last minute. But Clay rang Liston's in the earlier going. Clay knows this guy can hit now. But it does not win Liston the round IMHO.

Round 3 Clay

Round 4. Now Liston's other eye is puffy and he looks like he's aged in the last round. I called this round even there is back and forth action in this round and Liston has a few good moments as does Clay. One gets the sense that Clay is in charge but that alone does not carry the round in my opinion.

Round 4 Even....

Round 5. In between rounds Clay complains about his eyes, it looks like the sponge may have made things worse as the corner tries to wash his eyes out. It seems to take Liston by surprise that something has changed. Liston looks like he knows he must end this now, and somehow Clay manages to punt this round.. It's not a 10 8 round but it comes close because all Clay is doing is attempting to survive. The first 2 minutes are completely lopsided but Clay never loses composure and senses how to keep in the game. He gets tagged but keeps angles nicely and manages to avoid a deadly moment. Keeping distance, and coming in close and clinching when needed. Clays reaction time is stupefying in retreat. Liston doesn't seem to quite trust that Clay is helpless and that may have sewn his fate. Nevertheless there is no forensic body language that tells me that this is anything but fight and flight. There is NO indication that either man is NOT giving everything they have to end it on one hand, and to survive on the other. If this fight has any "fix" in it...it's the liniment moment and it did not pan out. Still Liston appears to have hit Clay with a shot or two that would have taken out lesser men.

Round 5 Liston

Round 6. You can see in Liston's facial expressions that he feels he blew his chance. And shockingly he is LOSING the battle of the Jabs. How about that? And it aint cause Liston aint tryin. Anyone with an ounce of ability to read these guys body language knows they are both intent on victory, one smells it and the other is feeling it slip away. In this round Liston tends to look confused and tentative and a bit embarrassed.

Round 6 Clay.

I think Liston or his corner chooses not to take the beating he/they know is coming here. He shakes his head negatively, right as he arrives at his corner. His cornermen are nearly silent and looking sullen. If Liston hurt his left shoulder, you could never have guessed it by the last very powerful left Jab he threw in the 6th, Was it his right that he claimed was injured I thought it was the left? I forget. You COULD make a case that his right shoulder was bugging him in that last round. Missing throwing big punches can give you all kinds of misery I suppose. We are told that his corner and not Liston made this decision. So Liston should not be held in contempt here. He wanted to come back out.


And that's all folks.

Thanks, I was reporting using my knowledge of body language. As you say, Liston may have had a poor self image. But in the ring, I think he had fleeting moments of very certain self confidence. But Clay's persona turned out to be intimidating to him, according to how I am interpreting what I see in this fight.

The "future" exploitation of the Junior fighter? Honestly?

No one had an inkling of the fighter formerly known as "Clay" was to become. No one could have had designs on something that did not exist. He was a flash in the pan as far as anyone knew.

The only thing he was good for then was a meal ticket on that day, but the meal ended up eating the predator.

Il Duce wrote:

In truth, Cassius was good, but not that good.

You appear to be awkwardly mendacious with this statement. YOU have rated him the #5 greatest HW of all time.
Which is it? Was he "good"... or "not that good"? It is difficult to appreciate your documented duplicitous statements on this matter.

Just trying to pin down the context is all. In our conversations I find it can be a moving target.

BoxBuzz wrote:If your taking some time watching that fight.....look at Listons facial expresssions......he gets more frustrated by the round.....he "aint getting no traction"....lol.....even when he's got a blinded fighter in front of him.....he is the one whos gassing big time.....he's lookin like a balloon that's losing it's air.

His look of confidence is out the window as the rounds progress.

Go to the 1.40 mark. It will make you think of Liston:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... swGuyJLMUM

ThatOne wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:If your taking some time watching that fight.....look at Listons facial expresssions......he gets more frustrated by the round.....he "aint getting no traction"....lol.....even when he's got a blinded fighter in front of him.....he is the one whos gassing big time.....he's lookin like a balloon that's losing it's air.

His look of confidence is out the window as the rounds progress.

Go to the 1.40 mark. It will make you think of Liston:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... swGuyJLMUM

That is one of my favorite all-time movie scenes!

"Now youse can't leave"

Love it.

yancey wrote:

ThatOne wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:If your taking some time watching that fight.....look at Listons facial expresssions......he gets more frustrated by the round.....he "aint getting no traction"....lol.....even when he's got a blinded fighter in front of him.....he is the one whos gassing big time.....he's lookin like a balloon that's losing it's air.

His look of confidence is out the window as the rounds progress.

Go to the 1.40 mark. It will make you think of Liston:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... swGuyJLMUM

That is one of my favorite all-time movie scenes!

"Now youse can't leave"





Love it.

"I will never forget the look on their faces. All eight of them. Their faces dropped. All their courage and strength was drained right from their bodies. They had reputation for breaking up bars, but they knew that instant, they'd made a fatal mistake. This time they walked into the wrong bar."

Makes me think of Liston ...

I started to watch a 43 minute youtube video of the fight yesterday, but got called away. Plan to watch it soon. I did see a couple of fellows named Nilon in the credits.

Apparently Joe Louis was the color commentator on the closed-circuit telecast that night.

I was 11 years old and clearly remember listening to the fight on radio that night and Rocky Marciano was the color man. The Rock was very disappointed that Liston quit on his stool.

If memory serves, Sonny was 7-1 that night.

yancey wrote:I started to watch a 43 minute youtube video of the fight yesterday, but got called away. Plan to watch it soon. I did see a couple of fellows named Nilon in the credits.

Apparently Joe Louis was the color commentator on the closed-circuit telecast that night.

I was 11 years old and clearly remember listening to the fight on radio that night and Rocky Marciano was the color man. The Rock was very disappointed that Liston quit on his stool.

If memory serves, Sonny was 7-1 that night.

I have come to love Joe Louis but he was totally lost out there. Ali is running around like a lunatic and Joe Louis is walking around saying Sonny Liston seems to have hurt his shoulder.

Ali was a 7-1 dog. Ali was legitimately frightened of Liston. He had said as much. There was a look of abject fear on his face when he was harassing Liston at the craps table in Vegas and Liston says, "get out of my face, you faggot."

But fear is a primary emotion. it's like touching a hot stove and immediately recoiling. Fighters learn to live with it and the great ones use it to their advantage.

As I have said before, it wasn't sluggers that bothered Ali but cutesy fighters like Jimmy Young and swarmers like Joe Frazier and Ken Norton.

Il Duce wrote:Mr. Yancey

Robert Nilon was the President of I-C-P {Inter-Continental-Promotions}.

They were the Fight Promoters, who handled the Closed Circuit contracts, where the "Big Money" was.

Jack Nilon, was Sonny Liston's Manager of record, though he called himself an Advisor.

A third Nilon Brother {James Nilon} was Treasurer.

Sonny Liston, who also was an Executive Officer in I-C-P, was technically a promoter in his own fight.

A 'NO NO,,,,,,,,,,, by every State Boxing Commission and Athletic Commission.

T-N-T Network {President; Nate Halpern} who handled the Camera Operation and Transmission Broadcast,
had also hired Sonny Liston as their liason for Southern Public Relations...
{Pay off to get the Broadcast and Transmission contract}

It was all inter-connected..............but of course it wasn't 'Fixed'.

That lumbering rummy couldn't have beat a prime Clay/Ali in a boxing match if his life depended on it.