BoxRec

Sure anything is possible. Everyone gets hit once in a while. However Louis would have a very hard time hitting a prime Ali. A prime Ali was extremely hard to hit cleanly. Louis is not going to catch a prime Ali nearly as much as the 32 year-old Ali that Foreman fought. Even if Louis gets lucky, Ali had a great chin and tremendous recuprative powers.

The prime Ali had phenomenal hand speed and was a great combination puncher. It's much more likely that he would be hitting Louis with punches that Louis didn't see coming. Louis of course had better power than Ali, but didn't have near the chin.

If we are going to seriously think about what would probably happen, we have to consider what Ali could do to Louis as well.

There has never been a human being that Louis would have that hard of a time hitting. He would have issues with Ali's foot speed for sure. But when Muhammad stopped he would get hit. Ali's defense is overrated by many. Tremendous athlete and very elusive with his footwork, but he wasn't a Whitaker or a Pep. Joe's jab would find him regularly no matter who won.

Idisagree wrote:I think Foreman had a little more strength (power) behind his punches. However, Louis was faster, more accurate, way more versatile on his offense than Foreman. Louis would do the same damage that Foreman would do if not more with his combination's. Foreman could hit harder, but he was not a better puncher than Louis in my opinion.

We are talking about Ali in his prime. He fought Foreman 7 or 8 years after that. Foreman doesn't even come into the equation.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

Idisagree wrote:I think Foreman had a little more strength (power) behind his punches. However, Louis was faster, more accurate, way more versatile on his offense than Foreman. Louis would do the same damage that Foreman would do if not more with his combination's. Foreman could hit harder, but he was not a better puncher than Louis in my opinion.

We are talking about Ali in his prime. He fought Foreman 7 or 8 years after that. Foreman doesn't even come into the equation.

I fail to see how that relate to my post? I'm expressing my view on who the better puncher was. Has nothing to do with Ali in his prime. Could you elaborate more on your post because you really lost me.

Idisagree wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:

Idisagree wrote:I think Foreman had a little more strength (power) behind his punches. However, Louis was faster, more accurate, way more versatile on his offense than Foreman. Louis would do the same damage that Foreman would do if not more with his combination's. Foreman could hit harder, but he was not a better puncher than Louis in my opinion.

We are talking about Ali in his prime. He fought Foreman 7 or 8 years after that. Foreman doesn't even come into the equation.

I fail to see how that relate to my post? I'm expressing my view on who the better puncher was. Has nothing to do with Ali in his prime. Could you elaborate more on your post because you really lost me.

You must be a Newcastle supporter. It's obvious, this thread is about Ali in his PRIME vs Louis in his PRIME. You posted about how Louis would do the same damage as Foreman - your words, not mine. Foreman fought Ali when Ali was not on his PRIME. So the point I'm making is that you are not coparing apples with apples.

I was replying to this argument, maybe you did not read it:

The Great John L wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:Foreman hit a lot harder than Louis...

Really? Based on... Please feel free to finish this sentence.

Ambling Alp wrote:

The Great John L wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:Foreman hit a lot harder than Louis...

Really? Based on... Please feel free to finish this sentence.

Based on everything that I have seen of the two.

This was my reply:

I think Foreman had a little more strength (power) behind his punches. However, Louis was faster, more accurate, way more versatile on his offense than Foreman. Louis would do the same damage that Foreman would do if not more with his combination's. Foreman could hit harder, but he was not a better puncher than Louis in my opinion.

And if you read it carefully it says “Louis would do the same damage that Foreman would do if not more with his combination's.” It would have been different if I said Louis would do the same damage that Foreman DID do if not more with his combination’s.

Again that post had nothing to do with Ali's prime or not prime. My reply was just addressing who the better puncher was between Foreman and Louis. Not whether Ali was prime or not.

Great match, and I think Ali wins on points. He would be too quick on his feet. He might take some in the later part say after 11 rounds. I do think he would hang on to win.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:There has never been a human being that Louis would have that hard of a time hitting. He would have issues with Ali's foot speed for sure. But when Muhammad stopped he would get hit. Ali's defense is overrated by many. Tremendous athlete and very elusive with his footwork, but he wasn't a Whitaker or a Pep. Joe's jab would find him regularly no matter who won.

Louis did occasionally have trouble hitting some of his opponents and none were as hard to hit as Ali.
He would have had a lot of trouble hitting Ali. His footwork was probably better than any heavyweight that ever lived. He did things that a trainer would not normally have his fight to do, but it worked. True Ali didn't bounce around all the time. However, he also had phenomenal reflexes. He would move his head away at the last instant without being hit.

Ambling Alp wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:There has never been a human being that Louis would have that hard of a time hitting. He would have issues with Ali's foot speed for sure. But when Muhammad stopped he would get hit. Ali's defense is overrated by many. Tremendous athlete and very elusive with his footwork, but he wasn't a Whitaker or a Pep. Joe's jab would find him regularly no matter who won.

Louis did occasionally have trouble hitting some of his opponents and none were as hard to hit as Ali.

Name them from when Louis in his prime (pre-WWII).

Bob Arum: "Ali was a one-handed fighter."

Guess that settles it, Manny "Giant Killer" Pacquiao would destroy both.

Ambling Alp wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:There has never been a human being that Louis would have that hard of a time hitting. He would have issues with Ali's foot speed for sure. But when Muhammad stopped he would get hit. Ali's defense is overrated by many. Tremendous athlete and very elusive with his footwork, but he wasn't a Whitaker or a Pep. Joe's jab would find him regularly no matter who won.

Louis did occasionally have trouble hitting some of his opponents and none were as hard to hit as Ali.
He would have had a lot of trouble hitting Ali. His footwork was probably better than any heavyweight that ever lived. He did things that a trainer would not normally have his fight to do, but it worked. True Ali didn't bounce around all the time. However, he also had phenomenal reflexes. He would move his head away at the last instant without being hit.

LOL, Louis was quite possibly the most accurate puncher in the history of Boxing. Ali would get hit quite frequently, but I wouldn't expect you to see anyone or anything competing with your boy. I should know better than to try and discuss him with you.

Who did Joe Louis have trouble hitting Pre WW2 ?

179 lb Bob Pastor in their first bout in 1937. It was a pretty close fight in which Louis frequently missed his smaller opponent. In fact, Pastor thought a draw would have been a fair result.

He didn't have any trouble in the rematch. Pastor was a good fighter.

Pastor & Farr were both very capable boxers, technically-sound fighters who knew how to dictate ring generalship & fight going backwards, as well as side-to-side. Most people quick to point out Louis' difficulty with Conn (which, as with Pastor, did not factor in a rematch) usually make no mention of Louis' at-times dominating performances against both Pastor & Farr.

Seamus wrote:Who did Joe Louis have trouble hitting Pre WW2 ?

179 lb Bob Pastor in their first bout in 1937. It was a pretty close fight in which Louis frequently missed his smaller opponent. In fact, Pastor thought a draw would have been a fair result.

Close? The scores were 8-2, 8-1-1 and 6-3-1 all for Louis. The newspapers said that Pastor's strategy was the run, duck, clinch (and, after clinching, butt). One newspaper said it was apparent that Pastor's only goal was to last the distance.

The Montreal Gazette did a round by round and had Louis edging it 5-4-1. The commentary make's it sound like a rather close fight with Pastor clearly having his moments, bloodying Louis' nose, making him miss badly at times and even backing him up on occasion.

Really? Backing him up, "on occasion?" Damn, I never saw Ali out-hustled in any form, "on occasion." That is pretty damning stuff!

The Montreal Gazette clearly didn't know how to score a boxing match then. Pastor ran and fought a defensive fight the whole night. You can even see the fight HLs on Youtube, I have trouble scoring any of this for Pastor . .

Bob actually fought a much better fight vs Louis in the rematch in which he was knocked down like 5 times in the first 2 rounds but came back to make it very competitive before being stopped late.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEyKi7g0 ... 1&index=11

Seamus wrote:The Montreal Gazette did a round by round and had Louis edging it 5-4-1. The commentary make's it sound like a rather close fight with Pastor clearly having his moments, bloodying Louis' nose, making him miss badly at times and even backing him up on occasion.

By the accounts I've read, Pastor bloodied Louis nose by butting in the clinches. The AP also had it close - I believe 5-4-1, but if you read the whole story, the Ap writer said (and I am paraphrasing) that he scored the fight as he did not because Pastor was effective, but essentially penalizing Louis for failing to put Pastor away when he had the chance. The official scorecards didn't have it close at all - especially Art Donovan, who was one of the greatest referees of all-time and the son of a legendary world champion. He had it 8-2 Louis.

Pastor had one thing in mind, and was to survive the ten rounds, he should had been dq for not fighting....

Ray

Regarding the round by round recap I referred to, here's what it said

Rd 5 There was a slight trickle of blood from the Negro's nose from the effects of Pastor's left jabs.

Rd 9 Blood trickled again from Joe's nose after Pastor hooked with his left.

Seamus wrote:Who did Joe Louis have trouble hitting Pre WW2 ?

179 lb Bob Pastor in their first bout in 1937. It was a pretty close fight in which Louis frequently missed his smaller opponent. In fact, Pastor thought a draw would have been a fair result.

To answer raylaw and saad, I would also add Godoy, Conn, Farr, and Schmeling in their first fight.

Ambling Alp wrote:

Seamus wrote:Who did Joe Louis have trouble hitting Pre WW2 ?

179 lb Bob Pastor in their first bout in 1937. It was a pretty close fight in which Louis frequently missed his smaller opponent. In fact, Pastor thought a draw would have been a fair result.

To answer raylaw and saad, I would also add Godoy, Conn, Farr, and Schmeling in their first fight.

Look at photos of Godoy's, Farr's and Schmeling's faces after the fight and you might have a different opinion. And if the issue is whether these fights show that Louis would have been troubled with Ali, Godoy and Farr are not good examples. They survived by mauling and staying close to Louis and inside his wheelhouse. And Louis had trouble with guys who used a crouch. Ali would not have done any of that. Conn - well, Louis did have some trouble landing on Conn, but he kayoed Conn in the 13th - so I guess he landed when he had to.

Idisagree wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:If the great Billy Conn, who only weighed 167lbs in that fight and almost put the great Joe Louis down, what would a guy like the great Muhammad Ali, would do?

Too fast, too big and too strong. Ali all the way.

Nonsense. Who won (Louis vs Conn) the fight in the end and how? Too big? Please!! Ali best weight was probably in or around the 220 mark. That would not be that much of a difference.

Too strong???? That is a weird statement. I would say the strongest of the two would have been Louis.

This fight is 50/50 for me.

BTW weren't you the one complaining that Ali always won on every possible scenario? And now you claim that that Ali would have an easy time against Louis. Weird!!!

"Two Ton" Tony Galento dropped the great Joe Louis. Galento was even 5'7".
The great Billy Conn had Louis in trouble, just weighing 167 pounds.
Max Schmelling stopped Louis in 12.
Tammi Mauriello dropped Louis in the first round.
The great Rocky Marciano almost killed Louis. Put him almost outside the ropes.
On his world heavyweight title win, Louis was dropped by James J. Braddock. Another light-hitting punching guy.

None of these fighters had the reach, the quickness nor accuracy that the great Muhammad Ali had. Watch the Cleveland Williams fight.

It seems to me that Louis did not have a great chin to begin with. I cannot see him beat none of the great heavyweights after the crowning of the great Sonny Liston. I feel that Louis would beat guys like Ingemar Johansson, Floyd Patterson, and the great Archie Moore at heavyweight. But guys like the greats Mike Tyson, George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Evander Holyfield, Lennox Lewis, and Riddick Bowe would be too big for him. Not to mention guys like Earnie Shavers, Ken Norton and the great Larry Holmes would beat Louis, too.

elmersalsa wrote:Tammi Mauriello dropped Louis in the first round.

Really?