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Re: Commonwealth Title??
Posted: 22 Jan 2011, 23:29
by bollox
None of the Empire Heavyweight Champions would fight George Chuvalo. I saw an interview with George where he claimed to have asked Henry Cooper's promoter when he would meet Henry for the title, only to be told that Henry did not even wish to meet George socially. Would have been interesting to see if Henry could knock George down. Nobody George fought could.
Somehow I couldn't see Cooper making a dent whatsoever on George. Famed left or not
Re: Commonwealth Title??
Posted: 22 Jan 2011, 23:46
by Collins2000
Yeah, funny stuff.
They love to use the line "He beat every man he ever faced!"
That sort of conveniently helps them overlook the fact that he was twice pole-axed by very very average guys.
Re: Commonwealth Title??
Posted: 22 Jan 2011, 23:49
by davidk59
Collins2000 wrote:davidk59 wrote:As I said Tua was green he didn't jab his way into a position where could land his bombs and Lewis played it safe because he is slow with no defence .
Green?
A skill level below Lewis, I'd accept as the reason he didn't win a round. But green?
Crikey, mate. He was coming up for his 10th year as a pro and had been in the ring with the likes of Ruiz, Izon, Maskaev, Ibeabuchi & Rahman.
Green?
Re: Commonwealth Title??
Posted: 23 Jan 2011, 00:11
by davidk59
I don't mean green as if he was a novice ,but Ruiz ,Izon,Maskaev,Ibeabuchi and Rahman will never go down as world beaters like Norton, Frazer,Foreman,Shavers,Lyle and the list goes on.
Ok Tua might have been the best of the bunch as far as contenders were at that time ,but Tua was still raw and not developed and Lewis could see it.
Re: Commonwealth Title??
Posted: 23 Jan 2011, 01:48
by davidk59
I'll give an example of todays Heavyweights . Today I would call David Haye green as apposed to the Klitschos but David Haye doesn't have to fight them because he's a champ.
I would have no problems putting Haye against Ruiz ,Maskaev,Ibeabuchi,and Rahman. I think he has fought Ruiz but who cares .But I would have a big problem putting him against Norton,Fraser,Foreman,Shavers and Lyle. I think David Haye is about the same age as when David Tua fought Lewis and not fully developed.
Re: Commonwealth Title??
Posted: 24 Jan 2011, 12:33
by oliverfennell
davidk59 wrote:Now with David Tua, he is not the champion so if he trained the house down and he KOed Monte Barrett in the first round what would have been his chances of Haye or the Klitchko's giving him a shot.
MUCH better than coming off a draw with Barrett! The whole point of Tua-Barrett was for him to get a highlight-reel KO and appear a threat again. Haye or either of the Klitschkos would have been more likely to take the fight because it would have sold a whole lot better and their rewards for beating him would be that much higher.
You're not seriously saying the Barrett performance/result IMPROVED his chances of a title shot, are you?
Re: Commonwealth Title??
Posted: 24 Jan 2011, 12:47
by oliverfennell
davidk59 wrote:As I said Tua was green he didn't jab his way into a position where could land his bombs and Lewis played it safe because he is slow with no defence .
OK, even if I was to accept the "Tua was green" line (which I don't for one second - he looked to be peaking around that time), you can't honestly be saying the current version is better than the "green" one?
Re: Commonwealth Title??
Posted: 24 Jan 2011, 12:49
by oliverfennell
davidk59 wrote:I think David Haye is about the same age as when David Tua fought Lewis and not fully developed.
When was Tua "fully developed", then? It's been pretty much steadily downhill post-Lewis.
Re: Commonwealth Title??
Posted: 25 Jan 2011, 02:14
by davidk59
So your saying Tua fighting Ruiz, Maskeav, Ibeabuchi and Rahman equals fighting Evander Holyfield twice, Oliver McCall ,Ray Mercer,Tony Tucker, Donovan Ruddock , Tyrell Biggs Olympic Gold Medalist and Andrew Golota like Lewis did.
You must be on a different planet if you think Tua had enough experience.
Now I'll tell you something about Champions wanting to fight the best that's BS because they want to hold on to that title as long as they can.
Re: Commonwealth Title??
Posted: 25 Jan 2011, 11:57
by oliverfennell
davidk59 wrote:So your saying Tua fighting Ruiz, Maskeav, Ibeabuchi and Rahman equals fighting Evander Holyfield twice, Oliver McCall ,Ray Mercer,Tony Tucker, Donovan Ruddock , Tyrell Biggs Olympic Gold Medalist and Andrew Golota like Lewis did.
You must be on a different planet if you think Tua had enough experience.
Now I'll tell you something about Champions wanting to fight the best that's BS because they want to hold on to that title as long as they can.
When, then, was this well-rounded Tua that you speak of in operation?
Or, to look at it another way, who at the time could Lewis have fought that wasn't "green" by your definition?
Re. champions, depends on the individual. But if you're saying Tua is MORE likely to get his shot now, then where is that shot?
Re: Commonwealth Title??
Posted: 25 Jan 2011, 12:29
by el_grande_mauro_mina
bollox wrote:None of the Empire Heavyweight Champions would fight George Chuvalo. I saw an interview with George where he claimed to have asked Henry Cooper's promoter when he would meet Henry for the title, only to be told that Henry did not even wish to meet George socially. Would have been interesting to see if Henry could knock George down. Nobody George fought could.
Somehow I couldn't see Cooper making a dent whatsoever on George. Famed left or not
I agree, George would have mauled him inside 12 rounds. He was a big heavyweight for the day and was hard as nails. Cooper had no shame in admitting he blatantly ducked him - citing that Chuvalo's manager offered him 10,000 dollars to fight him in Toronto. If you ever read the Canadian papers of that era - the commonwealth title was a massive deal over there and George Chuvalos biggest boxing regret was not getting the chance to fight for the Commonwealth title.
They should have stripped Cooper of the belt and have George Chuvalo fight it out with Billy Walker? Jack Bodell? Brian London?
Re: Commonwealth Title??
Posted: 25 Jan 2011, 15:18
by davidk59
oliverfennell wrote:davidk59 wrote:So your saying Tua fighting Ruiz, Maskeav, Ibeabuchi and Rahman equals fighting Evander Holyfield twice, Oliver McCall ,Ray Mercer,Tony Tucker, Donovan Ruddock , Tyrell Biggs Olympic Gold Medalist and Andrew Golota like Lewis did.
You must be on a different planet if you think Tua had enough experience.
Now I'll tell you something about Champions wanting to fight the best that's BS because they want to hold on to that title as long as they can.
When, then, was this well-rounded Tua that you speak of in operation?
Or, to look at it another way, who at the time could Lewis have fought that wasn't "green" by your definition?
Re. champions, depends on the individual. But if you're saying Tua is MORE likely to get his shot now, then where is that shot?
Re: Commonwealth Title??
Posted: 25 Jan 2011, 15:55
by davidk59
I didn't say Tua was a well rounded fighter I said he can be a dangerous puncher. I said he didn't have the experience and was green compared to Lewis as opposed to the fighters Lewis had faced.
Look Tuas people should have rejected the fight then. Because Tua was only 27 and let Lewis get a little older and also let Tua fight some of the fighters that Lewis had faced. Also that would give Tua that necessary experience to beat Lewis.But I can't change the past what's done is done.
As what Tua is like now ,if he trains and comes out smoking he can be dangerous as anyone but only Tua knows that answer.
As far as a shot is concerned he couldn't be any worse than Audrey Harrison.
Re: Commonwealth Title??
Posted: 25 Jan 2011, 17:35
by Brute
Anybody else notice in Don and Ray's 1969 World Middleweight ratings they completely missed Carlos Monzon, who made Nino Benvenutti a footnote the following year?
Re: Commonwealth Title??
Posted: 25 Jan 2011, 17:54
by Collins2000
Brute wrote:Anybody else notice in Don and Ray's 1969 World Middleweight ratings they completely missed Carlos Monzon, who made Nino Benvenutti a footnote the following year?
Yes, interesting.
In their defence it's not like he was setting the world on fire in 1969.
I wonder when he 1st made the USA Ring magazine monthly top 10.
Re: Commonwealth Title??
Posted: 25 Jan 2011, 18:14
by Brute
Monzon had not lost a fight after 1964. In 1970 he went in against Benvenutti with a 67-3-9 record.
Somebody was not watching.
Re: Commonwealth Title??
Posted: 25 Jan 2011, 19:38
by Collins2000
Brute wrote:Monzon had not lost a fight after 1964. In 1970 he went in against Benvenutti with a 67-3-9 record.
Somebody was not watching.
It was a different time to now Brute.
The world was a bigger place; it wasn't just a matter of logging onto Boxrec and seeing a fighter's record updated every day. Nor could you go to Youtube and see fighters in action to judge for yourself.
Monzon was fighting exclusively in Argentina against decent but not outstanding fighters with the odd exception.
If you can see a string of wins over top ranked fighters prior to his meeting with Benvenuti let me know.
Re: Commonwealth Title??
Posted: 25 Jan 2011, 22:50
by Brute
Even in the 1960s it only took a few hours to fly from New York to Buenos Aires, it was hardly the end of the World. Fighters like Tom Bethea and Charley Austin had flown down there to fight Monzon. Seems nobody asked them about him when they got back.
Oh yes, and he fought a draw with Benny Briscoe in 1967. I can still remember Briscoe dismantling Tony Mundine.
Fighter had a New York correspondent named Eddie Cool. Maybe he was not passing what he found out to Bev Will and co.
Re: Commonwealth Title??
Posted: 26 Jan 2011, 00:59
by Collins2000
Brute wrote:Even in the 1960s it only took a few hours to fly from New York to Buenos Aires, it was hardly the end of the World. Fighters like Tom Bethea and Charley Austin had flown down there to fight Monzon. Seems nobody asked them about him when they got back.
Oh yes, and he fought a draw with Benny Briscoe in 1967. I can still remember Briscoe dismantling Tony Mundine.
Fighter had a New York correspondent named Eddie Cool. Maybe he was not passing what he found out to Bev Will and co.
Let's see if we can find out when Monzon first appeared in The Ring top 10; If Fleischer and co also didn't rate him in June 1969 either then maybe we can cut Don & Ray a bit of slack...
I too remember Briscoe smashing Tony; but as that was in 1974 I am struggling to see how it relates to Fighter magazine not rating Carlos Monzon in June 1969...
Re: Commonwealth Title??
Posted: 26 Jan 2011, 01:16
by el_grande_mauro_mina
Brute wrote:Even in the 1960s it only took a few hours to fly from New York to Buenos Aires, it was hardly the end of the World. Fighters like Tom Bethea and Charley Austin had flown down there to fight Monzon. Seems nobody asked them about him when they got back.
Oh yes, and he fought a draw with Benny Briscoe in 1967. I can still remember Briscoe dismantling Tony Mundine.
Fighter had a New York correspondent named Eddie Cool. Maybe he was not passing what he found out to Bev Will and co.
I am going to go with Collins on this one Brute, The Ring was even at that time a very US-centric magazine that catered to an English speaking audience, a fighter with as impressive as record as Monzon wouldn't get much play in the people that made the rankings as fighters with statistically impressive records were common (and still are comparable to today) in South America, especially Argentina.
Re: Commonwealth Title??
Posted: 26 Jan 2011, 06:46
by patron
Brute wrote:
Anybody else notice in Don and Ray's 1969 World Middleweight ratings they completely missed Carlos Monzon, who made Nino Benvenutti a footnote the following year?
the no1 middle[freddie little] came out here in the early 60,s and demolished billy stanley and clive stewart, he was a beautifull mover ,had everything a fighter needed,even though they were both short bouts ive allways rememberedhim when imports are mentioned,why can,t we get that class of fighter over here these days, all the best
May get a few more of the articles scanned a bit later
