BoxRec

Joe Frazier is way too high on the list. He beat Ali once and maybe Bob Foster who moved up in weight. Don't really see him as a great Heavyweight.

Ezzard wrote:Tua was a solid contender. Durable and with a KO punch.

Put it like this, you had to be a very good fighter to beat him. But he was beatable.

Guys like Fitz and Burns were small men. Who knows how they’d have fared with modern day “science” behind them. But they may have been too small to compete with the behemoths.

Tua V Willard would be a good fight with two durable men looking to land their Sunday best.

He has an outside chance with Patterson just because Floyd though much more skilled could be caught and dropped.

Sharkey? Schmeling? I don’t think so.

Tua is an awful style matchup for the smaller,offensive-minded Burns. Other than him he loses to that entire list. If Fitz could outbox the much more talented (and bigger) Jefferies for 8 rounds he could surely outbox Tua for 12.
Willard . .a huge, durable guy with a top jab? That is Tua's worst nightmare.

He has an outside chance vs Patterson but Floyd can flurry in and out to a decision win like he did vs Chuvalo (who was much more aggressive/threw more punches than Tua and stronger on the inside)

Sharkey and Schmeling would make Tua their bi^ch, his face would be an ugly mess by the time they were threw with him.

dempseyfire wrote:

Ezzard wrote:Tua was a solid contender. Durable and with a KO punch.

Put it like this, you had to be a very good fighter to beat him. But he was beatable.

Guys like Fitz and Burns were small men. Who knows how they’d have fared with modern day “science” behind them. But they may have been too small to compete with the behemoths.

Tua V Willard would be a good fight with two durable men looking to land their Sunday best.

He has an outside chance with Patterson just because Floyd though much more skilled could be caught and dropped.

Sharkey? Schmeling? I don’t think so.

Tua is an awful style matchup for the smaller,offensive-minded Burns. Other than him he loses to that entire list. If Fitz could outbox the much more talented (and bigger) Jefferies for 8 rounds he could surely outbox Tua for 12.
Willard . .a huge, durable guy with a top jab? That is Tua's worst nightmare.

He has an outside chance vs Patterson but Floyd can flurry in and out to a decision win like he did vs Chuvalo (who was much more aggressive/threw more punches than Tua and stronger on the inside)

Sharkey and Schmeling would make Tua their bi^ch, his face would be an ugly mess by the time they were threw with him.

Sharkey and Schmeling are very underrated fighters...

Fitz is obviously on a different level to most greats let alone a solid contender like Tua.

It’s hard to gauge though. The Jeffries fight was 45 rounds??? So J.J.J. did not have to press too early. If Jeff only had 10, 12 or 15 he may have got into Fitz much sooner.

Odd how Fitz was a definite top 10 P4P fighter in decades gone by but many people don’t even have him in their top 20 these days.

Is he becoming a bit underrated? Or should I say neglected?

I also think Larry Holmes should be ahead of Joe Frazier. Holmes was very underrated. HE beat

1. Ernie Shavers (twice)
2. Ken Norton
3. Mike Weaver (Former Champ, twice)
4. Muhammed Ali (Over the hill)
5. Trevor Berbick (Former Champ)
6. Leon Spinks (Former Champ)
7. Renaldo Snipes (Snipes first defeat after beating Coetzee)
8. Gerry Cooney (Great white hope)
9. Tim Witherspoon (Former Champ, first defeat)
10. Bonecrusher Smith (Former champ, twice)
11. Ray Mercer (43 years old)

Lost to Holyfield at 43 years old in a closer bout then many thought it would be.
Lost close decision to Oliver McCall at 46 years old.
Lost close decision to Brian Nielson at 48 years old.

I know everyone knows these things but he really was very talented. One of the best jabs ever. Ton of heart. Came back off the canvas several times to finish guys. Only Tyson destroyed him in his 29 year career.

kwillymac wrote:Joe Frazier is way too high on the list. He beat Ali once and maybe Bob Foster who moved up in weight. Don't really see him as a great Heavyweight.

This is BLASPHEMY

GET OUT!!!!

Top 100 lists are hard, try it and see but................
IMO the biggest failure of this effort, which btw isn't too bad, is that the pre 1900 era is under represented and skewed. Tom Sharkey is at 31(too high) but his equal or near equals, Maher, Ruhlin and Slavin don't feature at all. Bugner, Fulton, Braddock and Weaver seem a way too high and Loughran, Moore, Jeff Clarke and Harold Johnson!!!!! should be higher or in some cases even 0n the list. I think Harold could make the top 50.

Oh and I cant see Clarence Henry or Gunboat there, list going down in my esteem all the time.

pound per pound wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

perrycarter wrote:Obviously the most unexpected ranking is Jeffries at #4. That is higher than most would have him. Here is the author's explanation for having Jeffries so high:

"4. James J. Jeffries

Jeffries is the most underrated of the all time great Heavyweight Champions. Most do not even have Jeffries ranked in the top 10 all time. His most famous fight, a knockout loss to Jack Johnson, unjustly tarnished his reputation. As I described earlier, Jeffries was light years away from his prime form having been out of boxing for 6 years and in terrible shape. His lone loss to Johnson should not be given any more credence than Muhammad Ali’s loss to Larry Holmes, Joe Louis’s loss to Rocky Marciano, or Larry Holmes’s loss to Evander Holyfield. To fairly judge Jeffries’s legacy you have to look at his career prior to the Johnson fight, which was impeccable. Jeffries fought in an era I rate as the third best ever, behind only the late 1960’s/early1970’s (Ali, Foreman, Frazier, etc.) and the 1990’s (Tyson, Lewis, Holyfield, etc.). Jim Corbett is correctly compared to Gene Tunney, Tom Sharkey was a Rocky Marciano clone, and Robert Fitzsimmons was a unique fighter who can’t be compared to any modern boxer but he was undeniably great. Jeffries beat them all, including other notables, completely cleaning out the division of quality heavyweight contenders during his dominating reign as Heavyweight Champion. Jeffries had no blemishes on his record either since he never lost, gave rematches to everyone who deserved it, and ducked no one. Some incorrectly claim that Jeffries drew the color line.

True he did not defend his title against any black contenders, but there were no good ones during his time as champion. Jeffries fought prior to the emergence of the trio of Langford, McVea, and Jeannette, and after the glory days of Peter Jackson (although Jeffries did trounced a washed up Jackson on his way up the ranks). Jack Johnson was active towards the end of Jeffries’s championship career but was still losing to the likes of Marvin Hart and was not considered a serious contender. The best black contender of the day was probably Hank Griffin and Jeffries bested him twice in non-title fights. Jeffries retired after five dominating years as the undefeated and undisputed Heavyweight Champion. James was so good because he was an athletic marvel. He was built like a bear, with a barrel chest and huge legs. Only George Foreman could rival Jeffries’s incredible physical strength, but Jeffries was not a slow lumbering caveman at all. He possessed Olympic caliber speed and jumping ability. Jeffries was an astonishing athletic marvel of strength, speed, and agility. His chin and stamina was among the best of any boxer of all time. His amazing God-given talents allowed Jeffries to achieve the amazing feat of winning the Heavyweight Championship in just his 13th professional fight. His subsequent championship opponents were usually much more experienced but they were still unable to find any advantage. The only knock on Jeffries’s legacy is that he only had 23 official pro fights, but why would we punish him for not needing dozens of development fights before jumping in against quality opposition? We shouldn’t, thus James J. Jeffries deserves a spot in the top 5 all time.

Most Famous Fight(s): TKO 15 loss to Jack Johnson in 1910.

Notable Wins: TKO10 over Jim Corbett in 1903, KO8 over Bob Fitzsimmons in 1902, TKO5 over Gus Ruhlin in 1901, KO23 over Jim Corbett in 1900, 25 round points win over Tom Sharkey in 1899, KO11 over Bob Fitzsimmons in 1899, 20 round points win over Tom Sharkey in 1898, TKO4 over Joe Goddard in 1898, KO14 over Hank Griffin in 1896."

He makes a logical argument so at least his ranking is defended even though I know most won't agree.

This guy needs to check his sources. Jeffries drew the color line - loudly. I have the newspaper clippings. Starting around 1901, he repeatedly insisted to the press that he would not fight a black man. Sam McVey and Jack Johnson were both legitimate contenders when Jeffries was active. Denver Ed Martin was around too. (He is correct that Langford and Jeannette came later.)

That said, I'm glad to see he has Jeffries as high as he is. He is the most underrated heavyweight of all-time in my opinion. He's probably the best all-around athlete to ever hold the title.

In my research, the color line was pretty much in play until Marciano. Its true. Johnson did not mix it with Langford, Jeanette, or Mcvey, who were the worlds best when he was champion. Dempsey did not fight Wills. Joe Louis only fought two black fighters in his 26 title defenses, and one was an old sick man. . Jim Jeffries, did return to fight Johnson, that is well known. What is not so well known if Jeffries fought black prize fighter Griffin as Champion in 1901, and floored him multiple times in a 4 round match. The fight is listed as a win in the ring record book. So saying Jeffries would not face a black fighter in the ring as champion is not entirely true.

The Griffin fight wasn't for the title. It was a challenge fight (i.e., stay four rounds with me and win $100. Those challenge fights were the staple of John L. Sullivan - but never worked out too well for Jeff.) By staying the four rounds, Griffin got $100, and he used every tactic to last the four rounds. Jeff really sqawked when he had to pony up the money. A week later, Jeff fought another challenge fight with Joe Kennedy, and Jeffries won the challenge by stopping Kennedy in two. This was in 1901, and both were tune-ups for his title fight with Gus Ruhlin. Jeffries was quite adamant from early 1901 until his retirement that he would not defend the title against a black fighter. That's a fact.

Ezzard wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

Ezzard wrote:Tua was a solid contender. Durable and with a KO punch.

Put it like this, you had to be a very good fighter to beat him. But he was beatable.

Guys like Fitz and Burns were small men. Who knows how they’d have fared with modern day “science” behind them. But they may have been too small to compete with the behemoths.

Tua V Willard would be a good fight with two durable men looking to land their Sunday best.

He has an outside chance with Patterson just because Floyd though much more skilled could be caught and dropped.

Sharkey? Schmeling? I don’t think so.

Tua is an awful style matchup for the smaller,offensive-minded Burns. Other than him he loses to that entire list. If Fitz could outbox the much more talented (and bigger) Jefferies for 8 rounds he could surely outbox Tua for 12.
Willard . .a huge, durable guy with a top jab? That is Tua's worst nightmare.

He has an outside chance vs Patterson but Floyd can flurry in and out to a decision win like he did vs Chuvalo (who was much more aggressive/threw more punches than Tua and stronger on the inside)

Sharkey and Schmeling would make Tua their bi^ch, his face would be an ugly mess by the time they were threw with him.

Sharkey and Schmeling are very underrated fighters...

Fitz is obviously on a different level to most greats let alone a solid contender like Tua.

It’s hard to gauge though. The Jeffries fight was 45 rounds??? So J.J.J. did not have to press too early. If Jeff only had 10, 12 or 15 he may have got into Fitz much sooner.

Odd how Fitz was a definite top 10 P4P fighter in decades gone by but many people don’t even have him in their top 20 these days.

Is he becoming a bit underrated? Or should I say neglected?

Ezz, I believe Jeffries-Fitzsimmons II was scheduled for 20 rounds.

raylawpc wrote:

Ezzard wrote:

dempseyfire wrote: Tua is an awful style matchup for the smaller,offensive-minded Burns. Other than him he loses to that entire list. If Fitz could outbox the much more talented (and bigger) Jefferies for 8 rounds he could surely outbox Tua for 12.
Willard . .a huge, durable guy with a top jab? That is Tua's worst nightmare.

He has an outside chance vs Patterson but Floyd can flurry in and out to a decision win like he did vs Chuvalo (who was much more aggressive/threw more punches than Tua and stronger on the inside)

Sharkey and Schmeling would make Tua their bi^ch, his face would be an ugly mess by the time they were threw with him.

Sharkey and Schmeling are very underrated fighters...

Fitz is obviously on a different level to most greats let alone a solid contender like Tua.

It’s hard to gauge though. The Jeffries fight was 45 rounds??? So J.J.J. did not have to press too early. If Jeff only had 10, 12 or 15 he may have got into Fitz much sooner.

Odd how Fitz was a definite top 10 P4P fighter in decades gone by but many people don’t even have him in their top 20 these days.

Is he becoming a bit underrated? Or should I say neglected?

Ezz, I believe Jeffries-Fitzsimmons II was scheduled for 20 rounds.

Thanks for that. Never seen teh fight but I think I remember reading that Fitz and Corbett's fights with Jeff were less competitive second time around...

Ezzard wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

Ezzard wrote: Sharkey and Schmeling are very underrated fighters...

Fitz is obviously on a different level to most greats let alone a solid contender like Tua.

It’s hard to gauge though. The Jeffries fight was 45 rounds??? So J.J.J. did not have to press too early. If Jeff only had 10, 12 or 15 he may have got into Fitz much sooner.

Odd how Fitz was a definite top 10 P4P fighter in decades gone by but many people don’t even have him in their top 20 these days.

Is he becoming a bit underrated? Or should I say neglected?

Ezz, I believe Jeffries-Fitzsimmons II was scheduled for 20 rounds.

Thanks for that. Never seen teh fight but I think I remember reading that Fitz and Corbett's fights with Jeff were less competitive second time around...

Unless you invent a time machine, you will never see it. It wasn't filmed. They tried to film the first fight in 1899, but the equipment failed. Actually, the second Fitz fight was more competitive than the first. Fitz cut Jeff up pretty badly in the second fight. There were allegations that Fitz either doctored his handwraps or the gloves. They also fought in a poorly constructed ring built with a thin deck. Jeff said it was like trying to fight on a trampoline, and it favored Fitz. One writer said Fitz dished out the most punishment he had seen in a championship fight until Dempsey fought Willard. But Jeff ultimately prevailed.

Primo Carnera doesn't belong on that list. He was a complete and utter fraud who pushed and pawed his "punches", and also possessed one of the weakest chins in heavyweight history.

I guess it is up to me to defend the "Ambling Alp".

Most of the fights that allegedly fixed were early in his career without his knowledge. They were against journeyman that he probably would have beat anyway. However, his handlers often bet on the round that he would stop his opponent.

Carnera did have several wins over fighters who did make this list; Sharkey, Loughran, Godfrey, Uzcudun, and Schaaf.
He actaully had a decent jab, was agrressive and had a lot of heart. If he was as bad as some people think he was he would not have lasted until the 11th round round against Baer and the 6th round against Louis. I beleive the Louis fight is still on youtube. He actaully held his own for a while.

He certainly should not be #38 as he was on the list. However, he probably deserves to be in the Top 100.

Ambling Alp wrote:I guess it is up to me to defend the "Ambling Alp".

Most of the fights that allegedly fixed were early in his career without his knowledge. They were against journeyman that he probably would have beat anyway. However, his handlers often bet on the round that he would stop his opponent.

Carnera did have several wins over fighters who did make this list; Sharkey, Loughran, Godfrey, Uzcudun, and Schaaf.
He actaully had a decent jab, was agrressive and had a lot of heart. If he was as bad as some people think he was he would not have lasted until the 11th round round against Baer and the 6th round against Louis. I beleive the Louis fight is still on youtube. He actaully held his own for a while.

He certainly should not be #38 as he was on the list. However, he probably deserves to be in the Top 100.

Ditto everything you said. That his whole career was a 'fraud' and his big wins all 'fixes' is complete mythology and inaccurate. He was a very good fighter, not ATG, but he'd make my top 60 at least.

You are amazing

"20. Riddick Bowe"

Where is Golota I ask ?

Paulpolska wrote:You are amazing

"20. Riddick Bowe"

Where is Golota I ask ?

Probably in his natural habitat --- robbing some unsuspecting nightclub patron of their pants...