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Posted: 16 Feb 2006, 14:34
by jamesmcdonnell
Terence wrote:Terence wrote:I think Hagler was very gifted; graft and dedication is as much a gift as the flashy flurrying the likes of Nunn show. How many styles could Hagler mix-up? Plus look at his contender fights versus the likes of Seales and Briscoe, he could do the lot and IMO became champ beyond his best years. Smart, strong, intelligent and a grafter. That is gifted.
In terms of skills you have to say James Toney and Riddick Bowe. Bowe was particularly gifted but lacked the other attributes required.
On a seperate note how about the least gifted fighters to become Champs? The guys who slogged it out and made the most of what they had. I don't think Hopknis was hugely gifted but credit to him, he made the most of what tools he had for a long time.
jamesmcdonnell wrote:Surely by definition, a gift is something you DON'T have to work for?
James I hate to be an arse here but I think you think gift = giving = father christmas.
Gift means endowement or capacity and Hagler had an amazing CAPACITY for hard work. One of the greatest gifts a boxer can have. Talent is seen as a gift but I think of it as a craft, Hagler being the greatest craftsman of all time. It also stems from dowry and brides don't work for their dowry, unless you count spending the wedding night on her back!
No no, that's right, thats EXACTLY what I was saying. Fighters like Hagler, Hopkins, Mayweather have the CAPACITY for hard work, and as you say that is a genetic gift as much as speed, power etc.
When people say 'Tyson could have been the best, he threw it all away' or 'what a waste of talent George best was.' They miss the point, that is what those men were, they were cursed with the wrong genes/backgrounds, and they were almost fated to fornicate up. Had Tyson had the work ethic of Hagler and the mental toughness to go with it, he'd probably have retired undefeated at the age of 35. Sadly for him, he didn't, and he had an impressive run before he was punctured by Douglas, and by his own admission was never the same fighter.
Posted: 16 Feb 2006, 15:03
by jamesmcdonnell
Toney lacks discipline of course, but he's obviously training hard enough right now, because he wouldn't hang with even the mediocre heavyweights of this era otherwise.
Archie Moore has to be up there as one of the most gentically gifted athletes ever, to be in his prime in his mid 40's is really something.
Posted: 16 Feb 2006, 17:49
by ibbo
Ive watched all the greats and i would say that Slavador Sanchez is the most complete fighter ive ever seen.
Posted: 16 Feb 2006, 20:37
by jamesmcdonnell
Terence wrote:jamesmcdonnell wrote:Toney lacks discipline of course, but he's obviously training hard enough right now, because he wouldn't hang with even the mediocre heavyweights of this era otherwise.
Archie Moore has to be up there as one of the most gentically gifted athletes ever, to be in his prime in his mid 40's is really something.
All that experience can't be bought. People forget that, they ask how good he was in his late-20's? Not as good as he was at the end.
Toney isso loose he'll never tire, experience again and setting the pace. I've seen his sparring footage and he goes and goes. People think fat = unfit. Not so with Toney, I just wish he'd grafted at 160lbs.
To be honest, I think 160 was always going to be a limited duration weight for Toney, he looked weird at 160, his head looked fornicating huge. 175 is where he should really have been slaying people, but he compltely lost his discipline at that weight class. At 190 too he could have been a killer, the way he motivated himself and got in shape for Jirov was class, I KNEW he was going to own Jirov's ass, and he did, he totally schooled him and Jirov was no mug.
Re: Most gifted fighter of all time
Posted: 16 Feb 2006, 22:56
by shoutout
REAL_DEAL wrote:This is world wide
mine
1 Sugar Ray Leonard
2 Duran
3 Tyson
what are yours, dont forget Stujones and beenie, i have hardly seen Monzon and Ray Robinson but i am sure they are up there
how about the REAL sugar ray...
ROBINSON!!!
Posted: 16 Feb 2006, 23:01
by shoutout
lawllb wrote:Salvador Sanchez has to be right up there. He's arguably the greatest featherweight of all time, and man was he talented!
He died at the mere age of 23 and he still left a legacy.
many believe the reason chavez became so popular SO EARLY in his career was because he was filling a void in the national heart of mexico left by the
untimely death of salvador sanchez!!
Posted: 17 Feb 2006, 07:09
by Syntax Error
I would say that Roy Jones Jnr is the most naturally gifted fighter ever; NOT the best ever, but the most gifted.
He could do some extraordinary things.
His athleticism & ability to throw odd punches was unmatched IMO.
Posted: 17 Feb 2006, 07:23
by Southpaw Stylist
THis seems like a thread for ifs, buts and maybes...
Let's concentrate on the who dids....
Leonard
Robinson
Ali
Whitaker
Were untouchable at their height COMPARED TO SIMILAR TALENT OF THEIR GENERATION.
Posted: 17 Feb 2006, 07:53
by TerribleTerry
Southpaw Stylist wrote:THis seems like a thread for ifs, buts and maybes...
Let's concentrate on the who dids....
Leonard
Robinson
Ali
Whitaker
Were untouchable at their height COMPARED TO SIMILAR TALENT OF THEIR GENERATION.
Whitaker is the odd one out there, for my money..
I know he is often under appreciated and was as slick a defensive fighter as you will find but he just did not have that majic spark of the other 3 he is groupoed with..
Leonard, Ali and robinson all performed near miracles at one time or another in the ring and captivated the boxing world. Whittaker, for all his neat spins, crouches, sharp jabs and boxing accumen just wasnt that same sort of 'special' fighter - do you see what I mean?..
Would Whittaker have stopped the sporting world with his in ring skills if he had been given the right fights/opportunities? I dont know.
Posted: 21 Feb 2006, 10:07
by MightyWarrior
TerribleTerry wrote:MightyWarrior wrote:Two greats who deserve a mention, and would give any fighter P4P a run for their money: Alexis Arguello and Wilfredo Gomez.
Great shout with Bazooka Gomez MW - he was sublime at his brillaint best.
His crushing knockout power was backed up with flowing combination punching and good head and lateral movement.
He is my favourite boxer to watch and has to go down as one of the most naturally gifted of all time, surely?
http://www.fightnews.com/j-gon47.htm
Posted: 21 Feb 2006, 10:16
by TerribleTerry
MightyWarrior wrote:TerribleTerry wrote:MightyWarrior wrote:Two greats who deserve a mention, and would give any fighter P4P a run for their money: Alexis Arguello and Wilfredo Gomez.
Great shout with Bazooka Gomez MW - he was sublime at his brillaint best.
His crushing knockout power was backed up with flowing combination punching and good head and lateral movement.
He is my favourite boxer to watch and has to go down as one of the most naturally gifted of all time, surely?
http://www.fightnews.com/j-gon47.htm
Just saw the photo and cut n pasted the article to read later. Cant believe how bloated he is looking these days - those dazzling combinations really must be a thing of the past!
Posted: 21 Feb 2006, 10:26
by TerribleTerry
MightyWarrior wrote:TerribleTerry wrote:MightyWarrior wrote:Two greats who deserve a mention, and would give any fighter P4P a run for their money: Alexis Arguello and Wilfredo Gomez.
Great shout with Bazooka Gomez MW - he was sublime at his brillaint best.
His crushing knockout power was backed up with flowing combination punching and good head and lateral movement.
He is my favourite boxer to watch and has to go down as one of the most naturally gifted of all time, surely?
http://www.fightnews.com/j-gon47.htm
Cheers for the heads up MW
No wonder Wilfredo looks so worn out! As the article states he 'battled substance abuse as well as a life of reckless fornication. '
I think I could do with a little wreckless fornication myself!!
I aas watching his brutal fight with Pintor again only this wkend. It is an absolute classic battle and one of my all time favourite fights!
Glad to hear Wilfredo is back on track after an unsteady period follwoing his retirement..
Posted: 21 Feb 2006, 11:24
by MightyWarrior
TerribleTerry wrote:
Cheers for the heads up MW
No wonder Wilfredo looks so worn out! As the article states he 'battled substance abuse as well as a life of reckless fornication. '
I think I could do with a little wreckless fornication myself!!
I aas watching his brutal fight with Pintor again only this wkend. It is an absolute classic battle and one of my all time favourite fights!
Glad to hear Wilfredo is back on track after an unsteady period follwoing his retirement..
No probs. I saw a doc about him recently, and his friends and doctor talk about how he went on far too long, along with the coke he's lucky to be alive really. Seems happy with his life now, which is great news.
Posted: 23 Feb 2006, 02:52
by shoutout
jamesmcdonnell wrote:Terence wrote:jamesmcdonnell wrote:Toney lacks discipline of course, but he's obviously training hard enough right now, because he wouldn't hang with even the mediocre heavyweights of this era otherwise.
Archie Moore has to be up there as one of the most gentically gifted athletes ever, to be in his prime in his mid 40's is really something.
All that experience can't be bought. People forget that, they ask how good he was in his late-20's? Not as good as he was at the end.
Toney isso loose he'll never tire, experience again and setting the pace. I've seen his sparring footage and he goes and goes. People think fat = unfit. Not so with Toney, I just wish he'd grafted at 160lbs.
To be honest, I think 160 was always going to be a limited duration weight for Toney, he looked weird at 160, his head looked fornicating huge. 175 is where he should really have been slaying people, but he compltely lost his discipline at that weight class. At 190 too he could have been a killer, the way he motivated himself and got in shape for Jirov was class, I KNEW he was going to own Jirov's ass, and he did, he totally schooled him and Jirov was no mug.
you know the most amazing thing about all of that is that toney played quarterback on his high school football team at a solid 205 pounds at age 18!!
Posted: 23 Feb 2006, 08:33
by jamesmcdonnell
Yes, that's part of the reason I've always thought 160 too low. Mind you, a lot of pro footballers carry a bit of extra weight, so 208 was probably never a fighting weight. I think Toney was a natural LH.