Holyfield's all-time ranking - what's he done

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 07 Jan 2004, 13:10

Loftgroove you make a point of highlighting Holyfields loss to Moorer without crediting him for the dominant KO win in the rematch. Why? You give credit to Lewis for avenging his bad KO losses.

Also, without wanting to get back into this debate particularly, I must add that if you cannot recognise the huge difference between Mike Tyson in the years 1996 and 2001 then it is without question that you are in fact, an idiot yourself.

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 07 Jan 2004, 13:12

We're all idiots in an idiots world.....

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 07 Jan 2004, 13:16

Make that 1996 and 2002.

Loftgroov · Post by **Loftgroov** » 07 Jan 2004, 13:19

I never rated him after he came out of jail so whats the big deal? He wasn't the Tyson that smashed Holmes was he. In 1996 or otherwise.

I don't even see the point in linking him as some great conquest of Holyfields.

Lewis was better, end of debate.

knockout artist · Post by **knockout artist** » 07 Jan 2004, 13:25

Since Loftgroov mentions the Bruno and Mercer fights.

Lewis fought Mercer years after Mercer was beaten by an almost 43 year old Larry Holmes and then was beaten by Jesse Ferguson.

Mercer deserved the win over Lewis.

Bruno was Boxing Lewis' ears off until the end.

McCall and Rahman knocked Lewis out. Accept it. There is no such thing as a lucky punch. McCall and Rahman threw punches aiming for Lewis' chin, Lewis' poor defense meant he got hit on the button and his poor chin meant he got KO'd.

I have never seen a so called all time great make so many fundamental errors.

Lewis did not KO McCall in the rematch. McCall was never hurt in the fight.
McCall was in no fit state to fight and Lewis couldnt KO him.

As a champion Lewis could be very good on some occassions and very bad on others.

Two KO losses to journeymen means he will never be a top 10 all timer IMO.

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 07 Jan 2004, 13:27

For reasons I went into on a thread in the past I actually think Holy's peak as a Heavyweight was circa 96-99, the time he smashed up Tyson, battered Moorer and hung tough with Lewis for 24 rounds. Although certain parts of his arsenal had most probably eroded, other areas had improved (namely planting his feet and being generally stronger to push his weight and then some) making him an all round better HEAVYWEIGHT.

In my opinion the Holyfield who lost to Bowe in 91 gets stopped by Lewis or at the very least Lennox uses him as his yo-yo like Bowe did. The 96-99 seemed a bigger man to me.

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 07 Jan 2004, 13:33

knockout artist wrote: Mercer deserved the win over Lewis.

No he didn't.

Bruno was Boxing Lewis' ears off until the end.

The end being when Lewis stopped him by punching him in the face?

McCall and Rahman knocked Lewis out. Accept it. There is no such thing as a lucky punch. McCall and Rahman threw punches aiming for Lewis' chin, Lewis' poor defense meant he got hit on the button and his poor chin meant he got KO'd.

And he put those errors right in the rematch. No credit for this at all?

I have never seen a so called all time great make so many fundamental errors.

Such as?

Lewis did not KO McCall in the rematch. McCall was never hurt in the fight.
McCall was in no fit state to fight and Lewis couldnt KO him.

Record says Lewis TKO5 Mcall, don't care about your fantasy world.
As a champion Lewis could be very good on some occassions and very bad on others.

Two KO losses to journeymen means he will never be a top 10 all timer IMO.

Fair enough

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 07 Jan 2004, 13:36

IMO the Holyfield of 1992 would have outboxed any version of Lewis CLEARLY. When did Lewis EVER have a workrate to match that of the peak Riddick Bowe?? And please nobody try and tell me Lennox would have just kept Evander at bay with the jab...

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 07 Jan 2004, 13:41

One big right hand from an 18st Olympic Super-Heavyweight champion bemometh can make workrates drop pretty suddenly.....

You think Lewis wouldn't have hit Holyfield? If Bert Cooper and Bowe could tag him cleanly I say Lennox has a pretty good chance of doing so too and Lewis may well have forced home the advantage even more.

This talk of the Bowe-Holyfield fights is making me think of putting it on the video tonight....

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 07 Jan 2004, 13:42

Yeah because Holyfield had a terrible reputation for getting knocked out by one punch...

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 07 Jan 2004, 13:46

Kilburn wrote:Yeah because Holyfield had a terrible reputation for getting knocked out by one punch...

I never said he would get knocked out (although I wouldn't totally rule it out) but that his workrate would drop when badly hurt and I would add to that the potential of becoming gunshy once he got thumped.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 07 Jan 2004, 13:49

Goz wrote:This talk of the Bowe-Holyfield fights is making me think of putting it on the video tonight....

I reckon you should Goz. I get the feeling you take the 99 version of Holyfield as his best form with which to beat Lewis which is just not true.

Men have easily stood up to Lewis before without get knocked out (as Holyfield did). Don't see why anyone would think a younger Evander couldn't take the heat with Lewis when he hung in there with the FAR harder working Riddick Bowe in 1992 and then outboxed him the following year.

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 07 Jan 2004, 13:53

We'll have to have a beer one day, I can imagine us discussing this for hours and still not agreeing!!

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 07 Jan 2004, 13:53

Goz wrote:
Kilburn wrote:Yeah because Holyfield had a terrible reputation for getting knocked out by one punch...
I never said he would get knocked out (although I wouldn't totally rule it out) but that his workrate would drop when badly hurt and I would add to that the potential of becoming gunshy once he got thumped.

Sounds like one of your "I reckon" statements Goz. Did Holyfield suddenly develop a granite chin when he did eventually fight Lewis at 36/37 years of age? Lewis can look a devastating puncher but only against the right opponents. Holyfield is/was not one of them.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 07 Jan 2004, 13:55

Goz wrote:We'll have to have a beer one day, I can imagine us discussing this for hours and still not agreeing!!

Yeah you, knockout (Matt) and myself all ought to meet up and thrash this out properly. I get the feeling he would lean slightly in your favour but hey he doesn't scare me!!

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 07 Jan 2004, 13:57

Kilburn wrote:
Goz wrote:
Kilburn wrote:Yeah because Holyfield had a terrible reputation for getting knocked out by one punch...
I never said he would get knocked out (although I wouldn't totally rule it out) but that his workrate would drop when badly hurt and I would add to that the potential of becoming gunshy once he got thumped.
Sounds like one of your "I reckon" statements Goz. Did Holyfield suddenly develop a granite chin when he did eventually fight Lewis at 36/37 years of age? Lewis can look a devastating puncher but only against the right opponents. Holyfield is/was not one of them.

Holyfield's defence was better at that time yes. It had to be against Tyson and Lewis.

Anyway they did fight.

Lewis D12 Holyfield
Lewis W12 Holyfield

And Lewis did want to fight Bowe and Holyfield in the ninties but was perceived as too dangerous for too little reward and was frozen out. So the other form guide we have is Seoul 88.

Lewis KO3 Bowe

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 07 Jan 2004, 13:58

Kilburn wrote:
Goz wrote:We'll have to have a beer one day, I can imagine us discussing this for hours and still not agreeing!!
Yeah you, knockout (Matt) and myself all ought to meet up and thrash this out properly. I get the feeling he would lean slightly in your favour but hey he doesn't scare me!!

I've met Matt a few times now although not for over a year which is too long. Next decent card at the York Hall.....

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 07 Jan 2004, 13:59

The Bowe of 92 onwards would have knocked out the Bowe of 88 with a single jab.

I reckon.

Kilburn · Post by **Kilburn** » 07 Jan 2004, 14:02

Goz wrote:I've met Matt a few times now although not for over a year which is too long. Next decent card at the York Hall.....

Yeah I don't think I've actually met up with him since the Takaloo fight in May, although he is kindly putting together some K1 fights for me as we speak.

Yeah yeah I admit it, I'm curious about all this Bob Sapp stuff...

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 07 Jan 2004, 14:12

I would have suggested Wembley on Jan 24th for a few of my boxing chums to meet up but I'm in Amsterdam that weekend on my friends stag night(s).

Last year was pretty crap for the York Hall.

I don't really care for the other other combat sports, boxing will do for me.

I just noticed, even you're a bloody moderator! I wanna be a moderator, I'm the only user on the forum! Just joking.....

beduff · Post by **beduff** » 07 Jan 2004, 17:48

holyfield is a legend simple :) and for all u who say he aint a great boxer watch some of his fights[when he was in his prime]and then disagree

catweazle · Post by **catweazle** » 22 Jan 2004, 20:03

the cat say;' we like Holyfield better than Lewis because his fights were more entertaining,exiting etc than Lewis's'.Opinion Yea,theyre both in my top 10 ! As real as any deal ever gets.

shakermaker · Post by **shakermaker** » 23 Jan 2004, 05:57

Holyfield beat a prime Bowe, a fresher Tyson than the one Lewis faced, he knocked out Douglas (fat or not) in 3 rounds, Dokes, Foreman, Cooper, Michael Moorer, he beat and dropped Mercer and not to mention more impressively than Lewis

give the man his dues!!! A blown up cruiser took on the monsters of the heavyweight division and hung with the best fighters of the 90s at that weight and managed to shock the world on a good few occasions. Throw in his career at cruiser and the real deal deserves to be rated so highly

Hardhitters11 · Post by **Hardhitters11** » 23 Jan 2004, 06:03

What impresses me with Holyfield is the fact that a brilliant Cruiserweight went on to do so amazingly well against the odds at Heavy beating and competing against far bigger men and winning.

He has never been completely desecrated apart from the fight with Toney and has held his own against the likes of Bowe and Lewis..

HH

shakermaker · Post by **shakermaker** » 23 Jan 2004, 06:08

I couldn't watch all of JT-Holyfield...I knew the result beforehand but it was still painful to see him get beat up like that. If he plans to fight on he needs to be stopped at all costs.

How a small man could drop Bowe in that 3rd fight still shocks me today when I watch it. Great trilogy and I'm often thinking of what Bowe could have done in that Heavyweight division if he had the discipline that Lewis had.

Holyfield's all-time ranking - what's he done

holy moley...